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The B737 Landing Roll - F/O handling and Captain Hovering..

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The B737 Landing Roll - F/O handling and Captain Hovering..

Old 12th Jul 2007, 16:49
  #21 (permalink)  
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.........I think the point of 'take-over' would have been somewhat earlier if I anticipated the need to apply full reverse
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Old 12th Jul 2007, 17:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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If the runway conditions are fine and they fly a good airplane, I'll let them have the controls until the we're on the high-speed taxi way. 90 degree taxi ways are right out as we only have one tiller. This is all briefed prior to the approach.
fbh
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Old 13th Jul 2007, 18:45
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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If I May!

Hi there,

I fly in Nigeria as a first officer for a local airline here on the 737-200.

I came direct to the right sit with training captains after sim and also after observing for about 60hrs on the jump. before that I had not flown for about 5yrs and the largest airplane I flew last was the Seminole. Today I have over 1500hrs on the 737-200.

Our company sop is simple all things being normal the Captain calls out 80kts I have control and he closes the reversers and comes to a full stop or as the case may be roll her unto the next exit and then turn off. Today some captains allow me to stop the airplane to a full stop and then they take over the controls for exit and taxi. I have had one or two who even allow me to steer the plane to the next exit and then start a turn off with my rudders before taking control.

I believe this is good for the f/o but must come with experience.
I remember not too long ago when I would come in and land a little bit to the right or left of the centerline HHmmm sometimes bit more if u catch my drift or when the wind was quite strong and had a little difficulty on finals or maybe just a tot too high and start floating down the runway the captain would most times take controls quicker than expected, I believe this is only normal there ere times I felt relief when they did.
Remember the responsibility is with him and his got the experience. The runway could be wet or short or maybe u have left a lot of runway behind you !!! believe me he will have controls earlier, its his responsibility.

On the other hand in a small airline like ours u get to fly with the same captains on a regular basis and I most say this helps a lot cos they get to see your progress and then can allow u do a little bit more because they are comfortable with your handling and by the time you know it he lets u stop the airplane comfortably while building your confidence too. And if your lucky leaves u with a comment like " u coming on very well Jack, nice one and well managed".

But remember not all captains are the same they also have their limits about how far u can go, some have very fast response skills and are more relaxed than the others and give u a little bit more of a chance to see if you can correct and redeem your image but some will not hesitate to intervene quicker. Believe me its good to have them both.

Today I really do not care when the captain wants the airplane All I bother about is to put it right there nicely or firmly ( not like the one I did last night in Libreville Lord have mercy what an arrival ) depending on the runway conditions with closed throttles, exit the wind correction if any wind then put the nose down engage the reversers stay on xnterline as she slows down and at 80kts depending on whos next to me hand over the controls or close the buckets while gently applying brakes without wobbling and voila.

So yes the sop says at 80kts but if I might add what was happening before 80kts!!!!

All the best and Safe Flights.

Zaz

Last edited by ZAZOO; 13th Jul 2007 at 19:11.
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Old 15th Jul 2007, 19:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Normally,I call '60 kt's' ,monitor reversers to idle and announce 'my control' but , if the FO did a long flare,or late braking ,or if i think we need heavier braking to be able to expedite vacating, i will start braking while announcing 'my controls' .
It works all the time.
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Old 15th Jul 2007, 22:06
  #25 (permalink)  

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717 rather than 737 but in my Co, SOP is for the captain to take control at the 40kt call (calls are 80kts/60kts/40kts).

It is rare to have planned exit point briefed, and as mentioned by others not uncommon to just miss one taxiway and than have to crawl to the next (or the turning node), possibly with another aircraft up one's chuff.
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 01:56
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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If I was a 73 F I would hand over after the cpt. initiates the HOTO..otherwise I would bring the aircraft to a stop and ask for tow.
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 04:31
  #27 (permalink)  
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2 pence

Why not just take a couple of seconds during your brief and mention at what stage, providing all goes to plan, control will be passed from right to left. Then providing nothing out of the ordinary comes along all concerned know whats going on by Capt Drag
Excellent, and since it is now a briefed item, the First Officer can now release control to the CA, much more civilized than " my airplane" or "I have control".
xx
Although there is no limitation for idle reverse, it is a good operating practice to get them stowed to prevent fan erosion.
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 11:03
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(calls are 80kts/60kts/40kts).
Are all these calls mandated by the aircraft manufacturer? If not what is the point of the calls and what action does the PF take if the calls are not made. Seems like an overkill to me although I have never operated the aircraft. Boeing have a 60 knot call as reminder for slowly coming out of reverse but it is not clear whether this is an indicated airspeed or ground speed call.
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 14:44
  #29 (permalink)  
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Excellent, and since it is now a briefed item, the First Officer can now release control to the CA, much more civilized than " my airplane" or "I have control".
Nonsense! There's an undercurrent of 'prima donna-ism' running through this thread. It's quite simple. On the Captain's call of 'I have control', as the co-pilot, you simply take your hands off and reply 'you have control'. As simple as that! It may leave the co-pilot with the feeling of not having quite completed his procedure, but that's that. I take over when I see the exit I want to make and I know how to achieve it. The co-pilot does not need to plan anything or complete anything, just let go- nothing more. It is no longer his responsibility to complete the landing roll.

Briefings are long enough and complicated enough without adding totally unnecessary items. when people are painfully pedantic in briefing as it is, I ask if we were to get a runway change, would they like me to ask to go to the hold so they can run through it all again!
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 18:57
  #30 (permalink)  

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Centaurus
From the 717 FCOM NP.80.4
Landing/Rollout Procedure

PF
At 80 KIAS, smoothly move reverse thrust levers to be in idle reverse detent by 60 KIAS. Move reverse levers to forward idle position and stow by 40 KIAS.

If First Officer is the PF, transfer airplane control to the Captain when reversers are stowed.

PNF
Monitor airspeed during deceleration. At 80 KIAS, call "80 KNOTS". At 60 KIAS call "60 KNOTS". At 40 KIAS, call "40 KNOTS".
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 19:30
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Usually its a "you have control" around 60 with reverser idle but not stowed when im PF. Normally i do make the exit i plan to but sometimes it happens that i miss it and the captain takes it earlier, of course i dont have any problem with it after all he has more experience than me as a junior FO (4.5k hours shorthaul average sector length 1:10), not to mention he is the only one with a tiller.

On complete role reversal flights (which is possible under our SOPs) i keep control until entering the stand, however during tight turns the captain has to use the tiller in order to make it, however the rest is done from my side. That is of course a very rare thing to do.
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 20:27
  #32 (permalink)  
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complicated enough without adding totally unnecessary items
I agree with your point as far as keeping the briefing short and sweet, I do however feel that FO's don't really want, and IMO don't really need the aircraft yanked away from them at 60 to 70 knots.
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 21:07
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Talking of keeping the briefing short it would take 1-2 seconds more to say i will take it off the HST and then let me know when you will take control.

Otherwise it should be if you want to hand over control "you have control" wait for captain to say "i have control" and then release the controls. It goes from PPL training does it not.

259
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Old 16th Jul 2007, 22:16
  #34 (permalink)  
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- 'ang about here! Whatever happened to involving the F/O in the planning of the exit on his/her landing - autobrake, reverse, taxy route whatever? How else are they going to learn?

(Then, when they've planned it and are slowing for it, grab it off them with a shout of banzai!)
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Old 17th Jul 2007, 00:57
  #35 (permalink)  
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I will generally let the FO take it onto the RET on the pedals or brake to an appropriate taxi speed for a 90 degree turnoff. Haven't needed to intervene so far....
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Old 17th Jul 2007, 01:03
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From not being able to land in 25kts cross being able to land in 35kts. From not being able to brake for an exit, being able to steer it like michael schumacher. And all this in 1 day!

What happened when they pinned that 4rd stripe on your shoulder. Got hit by the holy spirit or something? How do you expect f/o's to gain experience?

You need to do it a couple of times to see how hard you need to brake but it ain't rocket science. Keep track of the groundspeed and realise what taxyspeed you need for a highspeed turnoff/ 90 degree turn. And offcourse pick a sensible autobrake setting.
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Old 17th Jul 2007, 14:41
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How do you expect f/o's to gain experience?
In the simulator where no one gets hurt if type of dog-up happens?
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Old 17th Jul 2007, 16:41
  #38 (permalink)  
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I trust that was 'TIC', Centaurus? A few times every six months? "OK bring it to a halt"/"parking brake on"/"resetting".............

No, in the cockpit, on his/her landing - and I have yet to see the potential for 'a cock-up' in that scenario.
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Old 17th Jul 2007, 18:59
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Nobody that cannot land and end the landing roll safely in different conditions should be on the flightdeck operating any aircraft, but of course there is a learning curve which is rather steep in the beginning. Which is probably the reason why most airlines have supervision periods (or linetraining, however you wanna call it), some up to 3 months and the longer the better in my opinion.
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Old 17th Jul 2007, 20:35
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In the sim???? You must be joking
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