Crosswind Landings
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Crosswind Landings
Hello,
We all have had to endure crosswind landings many times and was just wondering what techniques you find work best??
There are so many different methods out there. I remember an instructor once telling me the perfect technique is bring the aircraft into ground effect, crab using the rudder and use a small amount of aileron to prevent the aircraft drifting off the centreline.
Many Thanks,
Regards,
JetSetJ
We all have had to endure crosswind landings many times and was just wondering what techniques you find work best??
There are so many different methods out there. I remember an instructor once telling me the perfect technique is bring the aircraft into ground effect, crab using the rudder and use a small amount of aileron to prevent the aircraft drifting off the centreline.
Many Thanks,
Regards,
JetSetJ
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to each his own
basically two ways (landing)
1.aileron into wind opposite rudder to compensate in such a manner that your line up the nose of the a/c to the extended center line and hold that line as close to flare as possible then simultaneously and smoothly level the wings and ease up on the rudder
2.point the nose into wind, wings level and match a/c trajectory to the center line and hold that upto flare.just as you flare use rudder to straighten the nose
IMPORTANT CAUTION: followers of one method generally look down up on the other camp and are terrible at hiding their discomfort if they happen to be PNF/PM with a member of the rival team
1.aileron into wind opposite rudder to compensate in such a manner that your line up the nose of the a/c to the extended center line and hold that line as close to flare as possible then simultaneously and smoothly level the wings and ease up on the rudder
2.point the nose into wind, wings level and match a/c trajectory to the center line and hold that upto flare.just as you flare use rudder to straighten the nose
IMPORTANT CAUTION: followers of one method generally look down up on the other camp and are terrible at hiding their discomfort if they happen to be PNF/PM with a member of the rival team
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Preferred techniques vary with the airplane and specific conditions (e.g., relative crosswind strength). There have been several recent discussions regarding several airplane types. Search for those discussions.
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in my 3 years now of flying i have seen many guys applying to much of control input. they tend to put a LOT of rudder and aileron, even if it is not necessary. it ends with a lot of bank on touchdown, when we have a cwc of 4 kt. totally unnecessary i think?
what do the others mean?
od
what do the others mean?
od
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As I have said many times, all airplanes land the same way: from a level flight attitude. When you throw in a crosswind, nothing changes. You still need to land (i.e., “touch down”) with the airplane tracking down the runway, parallel to the runway centerline, preferably with the centerline between the MLG. Please note that “tracking down the runway” doesn’t mean drifting to the left or right – it means the airplane is moving down the runway, at least parallel with the runway centerline. Here’s my description of a “normal” (i.e., without a crosswind) landing.
(1) Establish the approach and landing configuration appropriate for the runway and meteorological conditions, and adjust the engine controls as required.
(2) Maintain a stabilized approach.
(3) Transition to outside visual references.
(4) Determine that a landing is assured.
(5) Complete a smooth, positively controlled transition from descent flight path to touchdown.
(6) Achieve and maintain the longitudinal axis of the aircraft parallel with the runway centerline and the centerline between the main landing gear.
(7) At the flare initiation point, begin to increase the pitch attitude to that necessary to achieve level flight in the present circumstances (aircraft gross weight and configuration). From the descent attitude to the flare (level flight) attitude should take between 1½ and 3 seconds.
(8) As the aircraft slows, apply additional backpressure to maintain the level flight attitude but do not increase the pitch attitude, allowing the aircraft to continue a shallow rate of descent and a shallow rate of airspeed reduction.
(9) At either the flare initiation point, or upon reaching the flare attitude, begin to reduce power at a rate to bring the throttle(s) to the idle position as the main landing gear touch the runway.
(10) For transport category aircraft, touchdown must be 500 to 3,000 feet (150 to 900 meters) past the runway threshold, not to exceed one-third of the runway length, with the runway centerline between the main gear. For smaller aircraft, touchdown should be past the runway threshold.
(11) As touchdown occurs, ensure that the throttles are at idle; if appropriate, ensure that the spoilers have deployed; and without delay, fly the nose gear onto the runway.
(12) Use spoilers, propeller reverse or thrust reverse, and/or wheel brakes in a manner that ensures bringing the aircraft to a safe speed considering the point of touchdown, the runway remaining, and as appropriate for the conditions.
(13) Maintain positive directional control of the airplane with aerodynamic controls throughout the landing roll (including crosswind correction if necessary) until the ground speed allows directional control with rudder pedal steering or nose wheel steering, as appropriate.
Probably the most important factor is to find and be able to recognize level flight attitude – the attitude that would allow you to fly down the runway – without climbing, without descending, without accelerating, and without decelerating – and the ideal is to do this just as close to the runway as you can. A regular, normal landing – one that you would use day, dusk, night, rain, fog, crosswind, or anytime – you’ll want to get to that level flight attitude where your airspeed is going to be just below what you held during final approach. How much below? A couple of MPH or KTS. What’s a couple? Oh … 4 to 7 … in that range.
When you land in a crosswind, nothing changes EXCEPT that you have to control the tendency of the airplane to drift toward the downwind side of the runway. You can fly final approach almost any way you wish – you can do it inverted if you desire - although that brings in some additional issues that are probably better kept for another thread. Some airplanes do not like to be “slipped;” and some pilots do not like to “slip” their airplanes. The first method is to keep the wings level during the final approach, tracking across the ground along the extended runway centerline, while watching the runway out of the side of the forward windscreen – or, in large crosswinds, out of the side window (uh … if this is the case, you might want to consider waiting until the winds die down or go someplace else). OR, you can use the second method. You can line up the airplane on the extended runway centerline, keep the airplane fuselage parallel with that centerline, and maintain your position across the ground during the approach by flying with a cross control application - aileron control INTO the wind, and rudder control as necessary (which will be opposite – thereby the name, cross control) to keep the airplane tracking the intended ground track by keeping it in a bank (into the wind) and controlling the direction with the rudder.
A lot of people don’t like this second method; but, to be fair, there are a lot who do like it. Those that don’t like it don’t like it because the airplane is NOT in coordinated flight for the time you keep it this way and often leads to a compromise in the effectiveness of some of the aerodynamic control surfaces. Not a good thing in my humble opinion. Another reason it is not liked is that the little old lady in seat 2D is going to be uncomfortably jammed up against the window all the way down final. Remember, the airplane is banked, but it is not coordinated. As a result, people (and cargo) will tend to “slide down to the bottom of the bank angle.” OK. Maybe a small exaggeration … but you get my point. To me, the first way is much more preferable – I like it (and I taught it) because the airplane stays coordinated until the very last moments. The airplane stays happy, in that all of its control surfaces get all the effectiveness they would like to have. And, it keeps that nice lady in 2D comfortable.
In the second example (the one with 2D’s face scrunched), the flare is initiated just as normal except that you’ll probably have to make an adjustment on the amount of aileron necessary to keep the airplane from drifting downwind as you enter ground effect, which is very likely going to reduce the amount of bank angle you have. You ARE going to have to be aware of the maximum angle of bank you are allowed here, because too much bank and you might wind up dragging the outboard engine pod (usually only applicable to 4-engine airplanes), the wing tip, or the trailing edge of the flaps(all of which are a definite “no-no”). As the airplane fuselage is already aligned with the runway centerline, and you have killed any drift tendencies with the bank angle, all you have to do is to flare to the level flight attitude – which should take between 1½ and 3 seconds. Stay in the flare attitude for not more than 3 seconds while retarding the throttles to idle as the mains touchdown. Because of the bank angle, you might actually touch the upwind main gear prior to touching the downwind main gear. Not to worry. This is normal. Keep the crosswind controls active (may be required to increase the displacement as the forward speed slows) and do so until taxi speed is reached.
In the first example (my PREFERRED one), you, the airplane, and 2D are all happy. You’re tracking across the ground, following the extended runway centerline, although the nose of the airplane is pointed more into the wind. The trick here is to place the middle of the airplane on the extended runway centerline – which, depending on how big the airplane is, may put YOU more to the upwind side of the runway. That’s fine, as long as the middle of the airplane is where you want it. Here, also, you do exactly as you do in any landing – when you get to the flare initiation point, you begin your flare to the level flight attitude – and that should take between 1½ and 3 seconds. However, here, as you flare you begin to PRESSURE (not kick!) the downwind rudder to swing the nose around to line up with the runway. Note – the airplane does not have to be aligned completely when the flare (level flight) attitude is reached. AS you flare and pressure the nose around to align with the runway, you’ll probably need a bit of aileron into the wind – just in case the wind is sufficient to displace the momentum of the airplane and start it drifting downwind. The airplane will rotate around the center of the airplane (which should stay on the runway centerline) and allow the airplane to eventually align with the centerline between the MLG. Again, here too, you should stay in the flare for not more than 3 seconds, bringing the throttles to idle as the main gear touches. As long as you have the airplane completely aligned with the runway centerline before you touch down, you’re OK – and the longer you are completely aligned with the runway centerline, the more there will be a tendency to drift toward the downwind side. You may, or you may not have a bank angle – and, of course, if you do, no problem, you might touch the upwind main gear first, and you may not. It all depends on what bank you needed to keep from drifting. Also, you need to be aware of what that maximum bank angle is. Just because you gave 2D a nice ride down final, that is no reason to scare her by dragging the wing on the runway! And, here too, keep the crosswind controls active (you may be required to increase the displacement as the forward speed slows) and do so until taxi speed is reached.
(1) Establish the approach and landing configuration appropriate for the runway and meteorological conditions, and adjust the engine controls as required.
(2) Maintain a stabilized approach.
(3) Transition to outside visual references.
(4) Determine that a landing is assured.
(5) Complete a smooth, positively controlled transition from descent flight path to touchdown.
(6) Achieve and maintain the longitudinal axis of the aircraft parallel with the runway centerline and the centerline between the main landing gear.
(7) At the flare initiation point, begin to increase the pitch attitude to that necessary to achieve level flight in the present circumstances (aircraft gross weight and configuration). From the descent attitude to the flare (level flight) attitude should take between 1½ and 3 seconds.
(8) As the aircraft slows, apply additional backpressure to maintain the level flight attitude but do not increase the pitch attitude, allowing the aircraft to continue a shallow rate of descent and a shallow rate of airspeed reduction.
(9) At either the flare initiation point, or upon reaching the flare attitude, begin to reduce power at a rate to bring the throttle(s) to the idle position as the main landing gear touch the runway.
(10) For transport category aircraft, touchdown must be 500 to 3,000 feet (150 to 900 meters) past the runway threshold, not to exceed one-third of the runway length, with the runway centerline between the main gear. For smaller aircraft, touchdown should be past the runway threshold.
(11) As touchdown occurs, ensure that the throttles are at idle; if appropriate, ensure that the spoilers have deployed; and without delay, fly the nose gear onto the runway.
(12) Use spoilers, propeller reverse or thrust reverse, and/or wheel brakes in a manner that ensures bringing the aircraft to a safe speed considering the point of touchdown, the runway remaining, and as appropriate for the conditions.
(13) Maintain positive directional control of the airplane with aerodynamic controls throughout the landing roll (including crosswind correction if necessary) until the ground speed allows directional control with rudder pedal steering or nose wheel steering, as appropriate.
Probably the most important factor is to find and be able to recognize level flight attitude – the attitude that would allow you to fly down the runway – without climbing, without descending, without accelerating, and without decelerating – and the ideal is to do this just as close to the runway as you can. A regular, normal landing – one that you would use day, dusk, night, rain, fog, crosswind, or anytime – you’ll want to get to that level flight attitude where your airspeed is going to be just below what you held during final approach. How much below? A couple of MPH or KTS. What’s a couple? Oh … 4 to 7 … in that range.
When you land in a crosswind, nothing changes EXCEPT that you have to control the tendency of the airplane to drift toward the downwind side of the runway. You can fly final approach almost any way you wish – you can do it inverted if you desire - although that brings in some additional issues that are probably better kept for another thread. Some airplanes do not like to be “slipped;” and some pilots do not like to “slip” their airplanes. The first method is to keep the wings level during the final approach, tracking across the ground along the extended runway centerline, while watching the runway out of the side of the forward windscreen – or, in large crosswinds, out of the side window (uh … if this is the case, you might want to consider waiting until the winds die down or go someplace else). OR, you can use the second method. You can line up the airplane on the extended runway centerline, keep the airplane fuselage parallel with that centerline, and maintain your position across the ground during the approach by flying with a cross control application - aileron control INTO the wind, and rudder control as necessary (which will be opposite – thereby the name, cross control) to keep the airplane tracking the intended ground track by keeping it in a bank (into the wind) and controlling the direction with the rudder.
A lot of people don’t like this second method; but, to be fair, there are a lot who do like it. Those that don’t like it don’t like it because the airplane is NOT in coordinated flight for the time you keep it this way and often leads to a compromise in the effectiveness of some of the aerodynamic control surfaces. Not a good thing in my humble opinion. Another reason it is not liked is that the little old lady in seat 2D is going to be uncomfortably jammed up against the window all the way down final. Remember, the airplane is banked, but it is not coordinated. As a result, people (and cargo) will tend to “slide down to the bottom of the bank angle.” OK. Maybe a small exaggeration … but you get my point. To me, the first way is much more preferable – I like it (and I taught it) because the airplane stays coordinated until the very last moments. The airplane stays happy, in that all of its control surfaces get all the effectiveness they would like to have. And, it keeps that nice lady in 2D comfortable.
In the second example (the one with 2D’s face scrunched), the flare is initiated just as normal except that you’ll probably have to make an adjustment on the amount of aileron necessary to keep the airplane from drifting downwind as you enter ground effect, which is very likely going to reduce the amount of bank angle you have. You ARE going to have to be aware of the maximum angle of bank you are allowed here, because too much bank and you might wind up dragging the outboard engine pod (usually only applicable to 4-engine airplanes), the wing tip, or the trailing edge of the flaps(all of which are a definite “no-no”). As the airplane fuselage is already aligned with the runway centerline, and you have killed any drift tendencies with the bank angle, all you have to do is to flare to the level flight attitude – which should take between 1½ and 3 seconds. Stay in the flare attitude for not more than 3 seconds while retarding the throttles to idle as the mains touchdown. Because of the bank angle, you might actually touch the upwind main gear prior to touching the downwind main gear. Not to worry. This is normal. Keep the crosswind controls active (may be required to increase the displacement as the forward speed slows) and do so until taxi speed is reached.
In the first example (my PREFERRED one), you, the airplane, and 2D are all happy. You’re tracking across the ground, following the extended runway centerline, although the nose of the airplane is pointed more into the wind. The trick here is to place the middle of the airplane on the extended runway centerline – which, depending on how big the airplane is, may put YOU more to the upwind side of the runway. That’s fine, as long as the middle of the airplane is where you want it. Here, also, you do exactly as you do in any landing – when you get to the flare initiation point, you begin your flare to the level flight attitude – and that should take between 1½ and 3 seconds. However, here, as you flare you begin to PRESSURE (not kick!) the downwind rudder to swing the nose around to line up with the runway. Note – the airplane does not have to be aligned completely when the flare (level flight) attitude is reached. AS you flare and pressure the nose around to align with the runway, you’ll probably need a bit of aileron into the wind – just in case the wind is sufficient to displace the momentum of the airplane and start it drifting downwind. The airplane will rotate around the center of the airplane (which should stay on the runway centerline) and allow the airplane to eventually align with the centerline between the MLG. Again, here too, you should stay in the flare for not more than 3 seconds, bringing the throttles to idle as the main gear touches. As long as you have the airplane completely aligned with the runway centerline before you touch down, you’re OK – and the longer you are completely aligned with the runway centerline, the more there will be a tendency to drift toward the downwind side. You may, or you may not have a bank angle – and, of course, if you do, no problem, you might touch the upwind main gear first, and you may not. It all depends on what bank you needed to keep from drifting. Also, you need to be aware of what that maximum bank angle is. Just because you gave 2D a nice ride down final, that is no reason to scare her by dragging the wing on the runway! And, here too, keep the crosswind controls active (you may be required to increase the displacement as the forward speed slows) and do so until taxi speed is reached.
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Dude. I'd no idea it was possible to write so much on crosswind landings. I like to look out the window and line the direction of travel of the aircraft up with the runway and then line up the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the runway direction just before I start the flare.
Basically, there are two techniques; kick off drift and wing-down. The aircraft configuration and control characteristics usually determine which method is favored. As wing-down involves bank, then low wing / pod engine configurations tend to avoid it. Manufacturers usually recommend the appropriate method – follow the manufacture’s advice.
Gerund I fear that you are grossly mistaken. Although the common understanding of ‘demonstrated crosswind’ is not limiting, in many aircraft, it can be, and is published as such.
When a limit is reached, it comes very quickly, +/- 1 kt. Also remember that the limit is based on an average pilot not requiring unusual skill etc. Assuming that everyone will class themselves equal too or better than that, then what happens to everyone else – it’s probably all of us on a bad day, night time, wet, tired and wanting to get home. The limiting component of the crosswind limit in many accidents is human performance.
Remember that that most aircraft require increasing rudder as speed decreases – fly the aircraft when on the ground by applying more rudder if required. For those aircraft without nosewheel steering or unavailability just after touch down, rudder may be the only control that is available as aileron does not work on all aircraft. You may need the entire rudder defection just to stay on course, but what if the course has already deviated towards the edge, where is the extra rudder coming from … then there is reverse which may not help. Beware the reported wind – it is far from the truth.
For background and further explanation of the points above see ‘Safety aspects of aircraft operations in crosswind’; read this in conjunction with ‘Safety aspects of aircraft performance on wet and contaminated runways’
I suggest that everyone should include in his or her crosswind landing check an item which asks ‘should we be doing this?’ – not can we do it.
Airbus briefing notes, see Landing Technique / Crosswind landing.
ALAR see 8.7 Crosswind Landings and also Managing Threats and Errors During Approach and Landing.
Gerund I fear that you are grossly mistaken. Although the common understanding of ‘demonstrated crosswind’ is not limiting, in many aircraft, it can be, and is published as such.
When a limit is reached, it comes very quickly, +/- 1 kt. Also remember that the limit is based on an average pilot not requiring unusual skill etc. Assuming that everyone will class themselves equal too or better than that, then what happens to everyone else – it’s probably all of us on a bad day, night time, wet, tired and wanting to get home. The limiting component of the crosswind limit in many accidents is human performance.
Remember that that most aircraft require increasing rudder as speed decreases – fly the aircraft when on the ground by applying more rudder if required. For those aircraft without nosewheel steering or unavailability just after touch down, rudder may be the only control that is available as aileron does not work on all aircraft. You may need the entire rudder defection just to stay on course, but what if the course has already deviated towards the edge, where is the extra rudder coming from … then there is reverse which may not help. Beware the reported wind – it is far from the truth.
For background and further explanation of the points above see ‘Safety aspects of aircraft operations in crosswind’; read this in conjunction with ‘Safety aspects of aircraft performance on wet and contaminated runways’
I suggest that everyone should include in his or her crosswind landing check an item which asks ‘should we be doing this?’ – not can we do it.
Airbus briefing notes, see Landing Technique / Crosswind landing.
ALAR see 8.7 Crosswind Landings and also Managing Threats and Errors During Approach and Landing.
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Cleared ILS 32, wind at 8 miles 230/73kts 
So, we locked onto the localiser and continued.........
I was looking out of the F/O's window down the runway, he had eyes like dinner plates.
At 200', the wind was in limits for the 320, so I strangled the dick on the window ledge and popped it down left wheel, right wheel, nose wheel.
Don't you just hate earning your money
So, we locked onto the localiser and continued.........
I was looking out of the F/O's window down the runway, he had eyes like dinner plates.
At 200', the wind was in limits for the 320, so I strangled the dick on the window ledge and popped it down left wheel, right wheel, nose wheel.
Don't you just hate earning your money
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alf5071h
You are quite right.... ! Looking back at my post it does appear a bit cavalier. I didn't intend to be dismissive of demo xwinds but can see it comes across that way and, yes, they are sometimes specified as limitations. I am therefore deleting my post. I was trying to show that xwinds on landing are not to be overly feared and that the technique in dealing with them is actually quite natural. I didn't do it well. Thanks for the excellent links.
You are quite right.... ! Looking back at my post it does appear a bit cavalier. I didn't intend to be dismissive of demo xwinds but can see it comes across that way and, yes, they are sometimes specified as limitations. I am therefore deleting my post. I was trying to show that xwinds on landing are not to be overly feared and that the technique in dealing with them is actually quite natural. I didn't do it well. Thanks for the excellent links.
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Dude. I'd no idea it was possible to write so much on crosswind landings. I like to look out the window and line the direction of travel of the aircraft up with the runway and then line up the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the runway direction just before I start the flare.
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If you are landing in a limiting crosswind wet or dry runway does commonsense dictate the captain should do the landing as he wears it if something should go wrong? Or should the first officer do the landing if it his leg simply because as second in command he has been certified competent to be in that position.
Where does the captain stand in a court of law if the first officer makes an error of skill or judgement when landing in the above crosswind limiting conditions and the captain leaves it too late to recover the situation, and damage to the aircraft results.
The problem arises when the captain and first officer have not flown together previously and the captain can only assume and therefore hope the first officer is competent to land under limiting crosswind conditions. What Risk and Error management tools can the captain fall back on when permitting the first officer to land in limiting crosswinds where things can quickly go pearshape at the flare point.
Where does the captain stand in a court of law if the first officer makes an error of skill or judgement when landing in the above crosswind limiting conditions and the captain leaves it too late to recover the situation, and damage to the aircraft results.
The problem arises when the captain and first officer have not flown together previously and the captain can only assume and therefore hope the first officer is competent to land under limiting crosswind conditions. What Risk and Error management tools can the captain fall back on when permitting the first officer to land in limiting crosswinds where things can quickly go pearshape at the flare point.
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The Pilot In Charge
PIC remains PIC whether the Auto Pilot is engaged or Boy George is twiddling the controls!If the auto PILOT MISBEHAVES IT IS EXPECTED THAT THE PILOT IN CHARGE WILL TAKE OVER AFTER ANNOUNCING.AND SAME WILL APLY IF THE P2 HAS TOO MUCH AIRPLANE IN HIS HANDS AND SKILL LIMITS ARE ECEEDED.RESPONSIBILITY , AUTHORITY, ACCOUNTABILITY AND THUS COMMAND RESTS WITH THE COMMANDER OF THE AIRCRAFT-EVEN IF HE IS OCCUPYING THE RIGHT SEAT( TRAINER)!THE GUY WHOSE NAME RESTS ON THE FLIGHT PLAN DOC AND WHOM THE ACCIDENT INCESTIGATORS WILL WANT TO GRILL!
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Hi, again, AHRS
First, I want to acknowledge your comment about my post, but I would be remiss if I didn’t also let you know that many of the folks on this forum ARE professional pilots, who fly all sorts of aircraft for a living; in the real world; and they do it day in and day out. Admittedly, one cannot know the background and experience of everyone here, and due to the anonymous nature of forums such as this one, anyone may be or may NOT be what they claim to be. However, it’s not terribly difficult for a veteran pilot to recognize those who have little experience or who have larger egos than their experience would allow … as differentiated from those with little or no experience simply seeking information, or those with lots of experience offering observations about a particular subject. I hope I am wrong, but so far, you come across, on this post at least, as belonging to the first group; i.e., with either little experience or a very large ego. So, without trying to be overly critical AHRS, you might want to dial back some of the critical-sounding, advice-giving rhetoric.
I'm not too sure what it is you believe was an "oversight." Perhaps you missed what I said about the longitudinal axis of the airplane, what to do after touchdown, and to be sure that you properly use deceleration systems appropriately. Here is what I said:
Next, unless you fly an airplane that directly connects nose gear position with rudder pedal position at all times, I would think you would recognize that there shouldn't be a concern with making sure the nose wheel is centered at touchdown. Even the light training airplanes disengage rudder pedal steering as the nose gear strut fully extends after the weight is removed at takeoff, centering the nose gear with a centering cam. Therefore, if a crosswind has any energy to it at all, you are likely going to need at least some cross-control applied at landing ... which means rudder pedal and rudder surface displacement from neutral - at least to some degree – and there shouldn’t be a concern for the position of the nose wheel.
With regard to your statement regarding CG, unless you're flying unsecured cargo or passengers, the application of thrust reversers or wheel brakes won't change the CG of the airplane. If it DOES - I don't want to fly on the airplanes you fly. Besides, my statement that the pilot should "use spoilers, propeller reverse or thrust reverse, and/or wheel brakes in a manner that ensures bringing the aircraft to a safe speed considering the point of touchdown, the runway remaining, and as appropriate for the conditions" means just that. This is not an encouragement to use any system inappropriately or too "hurriedly."
I’m not sure what you mean by the “time factor to hold off the flare” unless you mean that the gross weight of the airplane would dictate when you should initiate the flare. Of course heavier airplanes have a larger momentum – but at the range of gross weights for landing, the rotational rates around the lateral axis for the flare in conjunction with the “power” afforded such airplanes to achieve the necessary rotational rates with the elevator system installed, wouldn’t be noticeably different if approximately the same rate of descent was maintained to the flare initiation point. The same can be said for the rotational rates around the vertical axis while aligning the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the runway centerline. Forward speed would be somewhat different, causing the touchdown point to shift toward the approach end or departure end depending on the weight of airplane, but the vertical closure with the runway surface should be relatively the same regardless of the gross weight.
You might be interested to know that, proportionally, aircraft size and landing gear size are relatively equal across the spectrum of airplanes. So the idea that airplanes equipped with “short, stubby landing gear” or “long-legged landing gear” should have differing flare techniques is not accurate. I’m also at a loss to understand your terms “shallow flare” and “deep flare,” as they aren’t recognizable aeronautical terms with which I am familiar. I’m presuming that you mean a flare to a lower pitch attitude or to a higher pitch attitude. If that is an accurate assumption, such circumstances should not be allowed to develop as the flare should take the pitch attitude to the level flight attitude for the configuration and gross weight of the airplane at that time – and the flare should be to the level flight attitude each time, every time, no matter what. And, again, for a given airplane, while there will be a difference in pitch attitudes to achieve level flight – depending on gross weight (which, naturally, is not a concern to light, training type airplanes) – here again, the differences will not be huge; and after understanding your airplane and what attitudes provide level flight at varying gross weights, achieving the proper flare attitude should become almost second nature. “Ballooning” is usually caused by reaching a flare attitude that is too high; a “bounce” is usually caused by a rate of descent at touchdown that is too high – usually because the flare attitude is too low.
Of course the crosswind approach technique is an individual preference – and usually falls into either the “crab technique” (that you mention) or the “forward slip technique.” Whichever technique you use, you should use all the time … at least until you get so experienced that you are demonstrating each technique to your students. And the one thing I would never teach my students is to “follow the flight directors.” Autopilots are getting rather sophisticated and are quite capable of landing an airplane, even in relatively moderate crosswinds. However, this is through the use, usually, of three independent autopilots – one commanding and the other two monitoring. Flight directors are not usually that sophisticated, and following an inside instrument that diligently that close to the ground is an invitation to severe problems.
Lastly, your last paragraph is perhaps the most loaded with the kind of critical-sounding, advice-giving rhetoric I mentioned above. Each pilot will select the input stimuli with which he or she is most comfortable. It will be from that comfortable position each pilot will make control application strategies and execute them to make his or her airplane do what he or she wants done at that time. So, please don’t take it personally if I say that your “advice” is relatively worthless to anyone except those who fly exactly the way you fly (if you do fly airplanes at all), and I always maintain that no two pilots fly exactly the same way.
This forum is a wonderful place to exchange ideas, learn from those who have “been there, done that” and those who do it every day. No pilot ever stops learning – and when they do, they either die or retire. So, welcome to the forum. Ask questions. Offer observations. But, please, be aware of who frequents these forums and respect the intelligence and experience of those here who have both.
would first like to thank Air Rabbit for his thoroughness.Too bad for those(dudes and Gorillas) who have reading phobios.This is a professional world and AVIATION AND FLYING IS A CONTROLLED SAFETY ACTIVITY FROM ENGINE START UP ALL THE WAY TO ENGINE SHUT DOWN .The most embarassing accidents are those that happen during the flareand they happen to the most experienced of pilits and Test PILOTS! RECOLLECT THE UNSTABILISED FLARE GENTLEMEN?Ref U.P.S. MD11!
An important oversight Air Rabbit (if I have your permission Sir) is ref point 11.During the longitudinal nose alignment....we do have to be conscious of the central position of the rudders and associatedly....the NOSE WHEEL prior to touchdown! Thrust reversers should not be deployed harriedly as they tend to quickly shift the CG towards the nose (especially with a forward CG of the day)and....BANG comes down the nose (additional to with which we wouldn't want the nose to be skewed off centre do we?)
While the time factor to hold off the flare is quite valid, particularly so in strong cross winds and narrow runways...the yardstick should be a reckoned based on the aircrafts landing weight and therefore effective momentum of inertia..the lighter the weight the more likely the drift tendency.I have noticed that a shallower flare would give you better forward/sideways visibility to monitor the c-line deviation tendency.Ensure that it is not a short runway you are landing at for this luxury!IF IN A DEEP FLARE..YOU RISK TROUBLE AND ESPECIALLY IF EXCESS ON SPEED AT THE FLARE POINT.TIME based flares is proportional to wheel height.DHORT STUBBY landing gear such as say ATR42/72/C130 require fairly brisk low height flares otherwise you risk balloning and bounced landings
I would expound the application of "crab technique" on approach for a heavy LW and fairly steady cross wind on the one hand and elect the ailerons aagainst wind in gusty conditions.in any case follow the Flight DIRECTORS IF EQUIPPED and be wary of speed and attitude trends and excursions by applying rapid and more aggressive corrections ...just as the Auto Pilot does during cross winds.
FINALLY FOR THOSE WITH DEPTH PERCEPTION INEPTITUDE AND A TENDENCY TO MAKE "DRAMATIC ARRIVAL LANDINGS"...before every takeoff and once properly aligned do peep on your windscreen to observe where the runway edge intersects the windscreen and keep on memorising that reference..it will in time register itself naturally in your subconscious not dissimilar like learning to ride the bike analogy to maintain balance.IF THIS ALSO FAILS...DO THROW IN YOUR SCAN ON TO THE IVSI during the last momentso f flare whilst monitoring sped decay AND PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO RADIO HEIGHT CALL OUT RATES AS A CUE OF YOUR SINK RATE.The IVSI needle should be in the region of 300 to 200 fpm for the kind of landing that will assure a touch down at the rate of 3ft per second which should more than satidfy your ego as well as assure you a nice commentary from the valued passengers and crew at the gate!
Additional critique is most welcome
An important oversight Air Rabbit (if I have your permission Sir) is ref point 11.During the longitudinal nose alignment....we do have to be conscious of the central position of the rudders and associatedly....the NOSE WHEEL prior to touchdown! Thrust reversers should not be deployed harriedly as they tend to quickly shift the CG towards the nose (especially with a forward CG of the day)and....BANG comes down the nose (additional to with which we wouldn't want the nose to be skewed off centre do we?)
While the time factor to hold off the flare is quite valid, particularly so in strong cross winds and narrow runways...the yardstick should be a reckoned based on the aircrafts landing weight and therefore effective momentum of inertia..the lighter the weight the more likely the drift tendency.I have noticed that a shallower flare would give you better forward/sideways visibility to monitor the c-line deviation tendency.Ensure that it is not a short runway you are landing at for this luxury!IF IN A DEEP FLARE..YOU RISK TROUBLE AND ESPECIALLY IF EXCESS ON SPEED AT THE FLARE POINT.TIME based flares is proportional to wheel height.DHORT STUBBY landing gear such as say ATR42/72/C130 require fairly brisk low height flares otherwise you risk balloning and bounced landings
I would expound the application of "crab technique" on approach for a heavy LW and fairly steady cross wind on the one hand and elect the ailerons aagainst wind in gusty conditions.in any case follow the Flight DIRECTORS IF EQUIPPED and be wary of speed and attitude trends and excursions by applying rapid and more aggressive corrections ...just as the Auto Pilot does during cross winds.
FINALLY FOR THOSE WITH DEPTH PERCEPTION INEPTITUDE AND A TENDENCY TO MAKE "DRAMATIC ARRIVAL LANDINGS"...before every takeoff and once properly aligned do peep on your windscreen to observe where the runway edge intersects the windscreen and keep on memorising that reference..it will in time register itself naturally in your subconscious not dissimilar like learning to ride the bike analogy to maintain balance.IF THIS ALSO FAILS...DO THROW IN YOUR SCAN ON TO THE IVSI during the last momentso f flare whilst monitoring sped decay AND PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO RADIO HEIGHT CALL OUT RATES AS A CUE OF YOUR SINK RATE.The IVSI needle should be in the region of 300 to 200 fpm for the kind of landing that will assure a touch down at the rate of 3ft per second which should more than satidfy your ego as well as assure you a nice commentary from the valued passengers and crew at the gate!
Additional critique is most welcome
I'm not too sure what it is you believe was an "oversight." Perhaps you missed what I said about the longitudinal axis of the airplane, what to do after touchdown, and to be sure that you properly use deceleration systems appropriately. Here is what I said:
(6) Achieve and maintain the longitudinal axis of the aircraft parallel with the runway centerline and the centerline between the main landing gear.
* * * *
(11) As touchdown occurs, ensure that the throttles are at idle; if appropriate, ensure that the spoilers have deployed; and without delay, fly the nose gear onto the runway.
(12) Use spoilers, propeller reverse or thrust reverse, and/or wheel brakes in a manner that ensures bringing the aircraft to a safe speed considering the point of touchdown, the runway remaining, and as appropriate for the conditions.
* * * *
(11) As touchdown occurs, ensure that the throttles are at idle; if appropriate, ensure that the spoilers have deployed; and without delay, fly the nose gear onto the runway.
(12) Use spoilers, propeller reverse or thrust reverse, and/or wheel brakes in a manner that ensures bringing the aircraft to a safe speed considering the point of touchdown, the runway remaining, and as appropriate for the conditions.
With regard to your statement regarding CG, unless you're flying unsecured cargo or passengers, the application of thrust reversers or wheel brakes won't change the CG of the airplane. If it DOES - I don't want to fly on the airplanes you fly. Besides, my statement that the pilot should "use spoilers, propeller reverse or thrust reverse, and/or wheel brakes in a manner that ensures bringing the aircraft to a safe speed considering the point of touchdown, the runway remaining, and as appropriate for the conditions" means just that. This is not an encouragement to use any system inappropriately or too "hurriedly."
I’m not sure what you mean by the “time factor to hold off the flare” unless you mean that the gross weight of the airplane would dictate when you should initiate the flare. Of course heavier airplanes have a larger momentum – but at the range of gross weights for landing, the rotational rates around the lateral axis for the flare in conjunction with the “power” afforded such airplanes to achieve the necessary rotational rates with the elevator system installed, wouldn’t be noticeably different if approximately the same rate of descent was maintained to the flare initiation point. The same can be said for the rotational rates around the vertical axis while aligning the longitudinal axis of the aircraft with the runway centerline. Forward speed would be somewhat different, causing the touchdown point to shift toward the approach end or departure end depending on the weight of airplane, but the vertical closure with the runway surface should be relatively the same regardless of the gross weight.
You might be interested to know that, proportionally, aircraft size and landing gear size are relatively equal across the spectrum of airplanes. So the idea that airplanes equipped with “short, stubby landing gear” or “long-legged landing gear” should have differing flare techniques is not accurate. I’m also at a loss to understand your terms “shallow flare” and “deep flare,” as they aren’t recognizable aeronautical terms with which I am familiar. I’m presuming that you mean a flare to a lower pitch attitude or to a higher pitch attitude. If that is an accurate assumption, such circumstances should not be allowed to develop as the flare should take the pitch attitude to the level flight attitude for the configuration and gross weight of the airplane at that time – and the flare should be to the level flight attitude each time, every time, no matter what. And, again, for a given airplane, while there will be a difference in pitch attitudes to achieve level flight – depending on gross weight (which, naturally, is not a concern to light, training type airplanes) – here again, the differences will not be huge; and after understanding your airplane and what attitudes provide level flight at varying gross weights, achieving the proper flare attitude should become almost second nature. “Ballooning” is usually caused by reaching a flare attitude that is too high; a “bounce” is usually caused by a rate of descent at touchdown that is too high – usually because the flare attitude is too low.
Of course the crosswind approach technique is an individual preference – and usually falls into either the “crab technique” (that you mention) or the “forward slip technique.” Whichever technique you use, you should use all the time … at least until you get so experienced that you are demonstrating each technique to your students. And the one thing I would never teach my students is to “follow the flight directors.” Autopilots are getting rather sophisticated and are quite capable of landing an airplane, even in relatively moderate crosswinds. However, this is through the use, usually, of three independent autopilots – one commanding and the other two monitoring. Flight directors are not usually that sophisticated, and following an inside instrument that diligently that close to the ground is an invitation to severe problems.
Lastly, your last paragraph is perhaps the most loaded with the kind of critical-sounding, advice-giving rhetoric I mentioned above. Each pilot will select the input stimuli with which he or she is most comfortable. It will be from that comfortable position each pilot will make control application strategies and execute them to make his or her airplane do what he or she wants done at that time. So, please don’t take it personally if I say that your “advice” is relatively worthless to anyone except those who fly exactly the way you fly (if you do fly airplanes at all), and I always maintain that no two pilots fly exactly the same way.
This forum is a wonderful place to exchange ideas, learn from those who have “been there, done that” and those who do it every day. No pilot ever stops learning – and when they do, they either die or retire. So, welcome to the forum. Ask questions. Offer observations. But, please, be aware of who frequents these forums and respect the intelligence and experience of those here who have both.
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Ms Air Rabbit
don’t take it personally if I say that your “advice” is relatively worthless to anyone except those who fly exactly the way you fly (if you do fly airplanes at all), and I always maintain that no two pilots fly exactly the same way
Are we allowed to be so self conceited that we can post remarks like these to people?
Are we allowed to be so self conceited that we can post remarks like these to people?
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Watch this. Sums it up for me......
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/39256/crosswinds/
My technique was spot on for the last two!
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/39256/crosswinds/
My technique was spot on for the last two!
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Air Rabbit
By the way AirRabbit I would relish putting your personal insults to test.Why dont you meet me at my location and select a real airliner simulator of your choice and see what I am made of.If I wont meet the required standard I shall pay for the detail.If I do..YOU SHALL PAY!
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Hello Vc10Tail
Are we allowed to be so self conceited that we can post remarks like these to people?
I guess that all depends on the person to whom you are directing your question. I would encourage you to review the comments about which I made my statement.
In the mean time, let me tell you that I am of the opinion that no two pilots use exactly the same input stimuli, in exactly the same hierarchy, to accomplish exactly the same maneuver, in exactly the same way. Once I learned that, I became a much better instructor because I no longer kept trying to force my students to fly the same way I fly.
Of course, you (and anyone else) are free to disbelieve and disregard anything and everything I say - or not. Your choice.
don’t take it personally if I say that your “advice” is relatively worthless to anyone except those who fly exactly the way you fly (if you do fly airplanes at all), and I always maintain that no two pilots fly exactly the same way
In the mean time, let me tell you that I am of the opinion that no two pilots use exactly the same input stimuli, in exactly the same hierarchy, to accomplish exactly the same maneuver, in exactly the same way. Once I learned that, I became a much better instructor because I no longer kept trying to force my students to fly the same way I fly.
Of course, you (and anyone else) are free to disbelieve and disregard anything and everything I say - or not. Your choice.
Last edited by AirRabbit; 17th Apr 2007 at 19:14.
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Hi 763 jock:
HaHa. Remind me to not fly on your segments! Ouch!
Watch this. Sums it up for me......
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/39256/crosswinds/
My technique was spot on for the last two!
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/39256/crosswinds/
My technique was spot on for the last two!
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AHRS
My friend - give it a rest. I have no intent to insult you. In my last post directed to your comments, I was merely pointing out the errors.
If you feel that my commenting on what I perceive as a lot of ego and a lot of your offering advice ... for example:
...is not warranted; then, well, I don't know what to say. That is the way I perceive your comments. Just think for a minute. You don't like me pointing out errors you've made, but you can direct comments (in all caps no less) to those experienced aviators here as those with "DEPTH PERCEPTION INEPTITUDE AND A TENDENCY TO MAKE "DRAMATIC ARRIVAL LANDINGS." And, then, you launch into a whole series of "suggestions" and "recommendations" that are completely without merit. What would you expect?
I would submit that you can "give it out," but are unwilling or unalbe to "take it." Go back a re-read what you've said and what my comments are.
By the way AirRabbit I would relish putting your personal insults to test.Why dont you meet me at my location and select a real airliner simulator of your choice and see what I am made of.If I wont meet the required standard I shall pay for the detail.If I do..YOU SHALL PAY!
If you feel that my commenting on what I perceive as a lot of ego and a lot of your offering advice ... for example:
FINALLY FOR THOSE WITH DEPTH PERCEPTION INEPTITUDE AND A TENDENCY TO MAKE "DRAMATIC ARRIVAL LANDINGS"...before every takeoff and once properly aligned do peep on your windscreen to observe where the runway edge intersects the windscreen and keep on memorising that reference..it will in time register itself naturally in your subconscious not dissimilar like learning to ride the bike analogy to maintain balance.IF THIS ALSO FAILS...DO THROW IN YOUR SCAN ON TO THE IVSI during the last momentso f flare whilst monitoring sped decay AND PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO RADIO HEIGHT CALL OUT RATES AS A CUE OF YOUR SINK RATE.The IVSI needle should be in the region of 300 to 200 fpm for the kind of landing that will assure a touch down at the rate of 3ft per second which should more than satidfy your ego as well as assure you a nice commentary from the valued passengers and crew at the gate!
I would submit that you can "give it out," but are unwilling or unalbe to "take it." Go back a re-read what you've said and what my comments are.