B737 - forgetting to set take off flap?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Prague, EU
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Use our procedure and You will never forget Flaps for Take off
In my Company SOP we are setting T/O Flap position just before starting Before Taxi Checklist and never check Flight Controls item before we confirm Flap position and Green Light On. We are not allowed to start taxing before doing it in this manner even when in rush, but better be 30 seconds later then taking off without T/Of laps. In case of Cold Weather Operations where flaps may be required to remain in up position diring taxi due to contamination and/or de-iceing, we always use additional Cold Weather Before T/O Checklist where T/O flaps are additionaly checked. Try it and see how usefull it is.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
razzele. . . . ref TSF, if they cut the grass more often, you would see that the last item is "canopy" which would suggest it was more for the benefit of the Italian Air Force hot shots rather than Ryanair. Very tempted to put a sticker over it with "cabin secure", but of course I have the no-smoking(ex) sign for that . . . duh. Our checklist says to perform selection and verify flaps as part of after-start checklist, and then to challenge check and respond as part of before take-off checklist, but even that is not able to save some guys, shades of unpressurised take-offs here. You can write multiple check-lists, memonics, and any other procedure you like, but someone will always find a way to foul up, and only situational awareness,the config warning, luck, or the previous poster's "3 killers" personal check-list will save their asses. Ryanair, and many other carriers I am sure , need to ask why these things happen, rather than believing/hoping /pretending , that another procedure/FCI/checklist will stop it happening.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The first hull loss of a 747 was an attempted take off with slats not deployed.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19741120-0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_540
CVR http://www.tailstrike.com/201174.htm
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19741120-0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_540
CVR http://www.tailstrike.com/201174.htm
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're taxying for de icing at the Flaps prompt you call "up" instead of "Flap 5" and then complete the rest of the checklist. The before Take Off check list is not actioned until after de icing. Hopefully the unusual situation leads people to be more cautious and check everything more carefully anyway.
As I approach the T/O point on the runway I always say to myself and check :-
flaps & fuel
clearance & cabin
beacons & brakes
So far, so good. I have, in fact, picked up a couple of omissions over the years.
flaps & fuel
clearance & cabin
beacons & brakes
So far, so good. I have, in fact, picked up a couple of omissions over the years.
The Safety Board believes that the nonstandard manner in which the crew initiated checklists, with the first officer bearing the load for checklist initiation and accomplishment, increased the crew’s vulnerability to the problems associated with conducting checklists during taxi operations ...
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The subject of the original thread was to avoid attempting a takeoff, with proper flaps setting or configuration and not to discuss the merit of the old or new checlists, and airline individual procedures.
xxx
No matter how excellent your checklists, or updates, or SOPs are, I say again, for those who fail the ability to read that TRIM - FLAPS - SPOILERS verified (the 3 killers) upon line-up is the only guarantee that you will survive and not bend some metal at the other end of your runway.
xxx
I can take any and all threads here in this forum, and demonstrate that, if you fail to do as I recommend, may lead you to disaster. If you want your name to be in the accident statistics, continue to show "how superior" your check-lists and procedures are (or claim to be superior...)
xxx
I do not claim this to be my own invention, but I survived F-104s (without the help of challenge and responses, and the luxury of a F/O), instructing pilots for type rating in Learjets ("Fearjets") and pulling engines to idle at V1 and still survived. If I am alive today, and the 500 passengers and crew in 747, I owe it to the "3 killers", and not to the semantics of "before takeoff checklists" (old or new edition) properly completed.
xxx
In the "old days" - I am convinced that training was properly administered. This might make you laugh. but did you know that when I was 16 of age, learning to fly a Piper J-3C-65 Cub, my instructors forced me to say "gear down - landing checks" at the end of downwind, turning to base...? No matter how ridiculous it seems to you, (what gear...?), THAT was the proper training techniques then, which I continue to foster.
xxx
I am not a "Geek" lost in playing computer GPS and FMS games when I line-up on the runway, and I dont give a damned if "Suzy" has, or has not come to the flight deck, to tell me that the "cabin is ready"... If they spill their Martinis, "frankly, dear, I dont give a damn..." - Quote from "Gone with the wind" - regardless on how gusty that wind was...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
No matter how excellent your checklists, or updates, or SOPs are, I say again, for those who fail the ability to read that TRIM - FLAPS - SPOILERS verified (the 3 killers) upon line-up is the only guarantee that you will survive and not bend some metal at the other end of your runway.
xxx
I can take any and all threads here in this forum, and demonstrate that, if you fail to do as I recommend, may lead you to disaster. If you want your name to be in the accident statistics, continue to show "how superior" your check-lists and procedures are (or claim to be superior...)
xxx
I do not claim this to be my own invention, but I survived F-104s (without the help of challenge and responses, and the luxury of a F/O), instructing pilots for type rating in Learjets ("Fearjets") and pulling engines to idle at V1 and still survived. If I am alive today, and the 500 passengers and crew in 747, I owe it to the "3 killers", and not to the semantics of "before takeoff checklists" (old or new edition) properly completed.
xxx
In the "old days" - I am convinced that training was properly administered. This might make you laugh. but did you know that when I was 16 of age, learning to fly a Piper J-3C-65 Cub, my instructors forced me to say "gear down - landing checks" at the end of downwind, turning to base...? No matter how ridiculous it seems to you, (what gear...?), THAT was the proper training techniques then, which I continue to foster.
xxx
I am not a "Geek" lost in playing computer GPS and FMS games when I line-up on the runway, and I dont give a damned if "Suzy" has, or has not come to the flight deck, to tell me that the "cabin is ready"... If they spill their Martinis, "frankly, dear, I dont give a damn..." - Quote from "Gone with the wind" - regardless on how gusty that wind was...
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm, being about the same vintage as BelArgUSA, I have to agree with his comments.
The absolute last item on any before takeoff check should be...
CONFIGURATION CHECK
Flaps .... SET, and agree with the takeoff data
Spoilers .... down
Stab trim .... set
Compasses .... aligned, and agree with the takeoff runway.
Omit these items.....prepare for possible large problems.
The absolute last item on any before takeoff check should be...
CONFIGURATION CHECK
Flaps .... SET, and agree with the takeoff data
Spoilers .... down
Stab trim .... set
Compasses .... aligned, and agree with the takeoff runway.
Omit these items.....prepare for possible large problems.
I'm of slightly more recent vintage than 411 ans BelARGUSA (I think!), nevertheless, I too was trained when 'last chance checks' were performed as a matter of routine - and I still use them. These have been adapted over the years dependant on type and role, and even though I now fly a FBW Airbus where you would have to be spectacularly inept to get airborne without some flap set, I still do them.
On line up, Our company SOPs require us to do a quick reminder of the RTO actions, on top of that I add flap setting, spoilers down, runway heading (think COMAIR) and LOC bar (think SQ06). Trim is largely irrelevant for T/O in the 'bus. On landing when I hear the "400ft" auto callout, I do a quick gear/flaps/clearance reminder despite the presence of GPWS.
Flying pistons, I used to use the 3 colours - Reds (mixture lever forward), Blues (max RPM) Greens (gear down and locked).
It's called airmanship. It hasn't saved my @rse yet, but as I get older and more doddery - it just might yet!
On line up, Our company SOPs require us to do a quick reminder of the RTO actions, on top of that I add flap setting, spoilers down, runway heading (think COMAIR) and LOC bar (think SQ06). Trim is largely irrelevant for T/O in the 'bus. On landing when I hear the "400ft" auto callout, I do a quick gear/flaps/clearance reminder despite the presence of GPWS.
Flying pistons, I used to use the 3 colours - Reds (mixture lever forward), Blues (max RPM) Greens (gear down and locked).
It's called airmanship. It hasn't saved my @rse yet, but as I get older and more doddery - it just might yet!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when I was 16 of age, learning to fly a Piper J-3C-65 Cub, my instructors forced me to say "gear down - landing checks" at the end of downwind, turning to base...? No matter how ridiculous it seems to you, (what gear...?), THAT was the proper training techniques then, which I continue to foster
Join Date: May 2002
Location: U.K.
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say the best way to catch things is check and double check. Even if you do a scan just before critical phases of flight, before take off, top of cruise etc you can pick up on things not being set correctly very quickly.
I always before entering the runway check flaps, brakes, trim, spoilers.... as someone else said, this one action can save lives.
The problem comes when you are starting to feel fatigued after lots of flying, staying vigilant is difficult
I always before entering the runway check flaps, brakes, trim, spoilers.... as someone else said, this one action can save lives.
The problem comes when you are starting to feel fatigued after lots of flying, staying vigilant is difficult
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tee Emm, You may be interested to know that I went through BA training in the 70's and part of the checklist was "gear down and locked" even on the basic training course using cherokees with fixed gear. This was to ensure you NEVER forgot the gear when moving on to retractable types later in training.
Also one of my instructors at the time always checked "3 greens" as the throttles were closed on landing . It saved him from a certain wheels up landing at least once!
Also one of my instructors at the time always checked "3 greens" as the throttles were closed on landing . It saved him from a certain wheels up landing at least once!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oooops Waldo...!
xxx
Beware, that "gear down" in fixed gear airplanes for primary training is "unadulterated rubbish"...
Your name shall be spoken in vain by Tee Emm...
xxx
I have to admit that he is absolutely right.
My saying "mixture rich" and "fine pitch" in finals with my 747 has to stop.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Beware, that "gear down" in fixed gear airplanes for primary training is "unadulterated rubbish"...
Your name shall be spoken in vain by Tee Emm...
xxx
I have to admit that he is absolutely right.
My saying "mixture rich" and "fine pitch" in finals with my 747 has to stop.
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Argentina
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hi guys, here's an accident of a 737 that crashed after take off... The investigations have found that they didn't set the flaps for takeoff and what's even worse, they disregarded the ALARM!...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPA_flight_3142
Bye..
ds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPA_flight_3142
Bye..
ds
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No...
They forgot the 3 killers...
And the one that will crash next month, will be same...
And the one in 3 months, same story...
I was driving on the Costañera that day, 20 minutes before the crash...
xxx
Sadly, I say "Happy Contrails"
They forgot the 3 killers...
And the one that will crash next month, will be same...
And the one in 3 months, same story...
I was driving on the Costañera that day, 20 minutes before the crash...
xxx
Sadly, I say "Happy Contrails"
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BelArgUSA - You can cut Waldo some slack. The “Emergency Operations” section of the Partenavia P68B checklist contains the following
ENGINE FAILURE AFTER TAKEOFF OR
TERRAIN CRITICAL
CONTROL ……………………..………..YAW
AIRSPEED………………………..BLUE LINE6
POWER……………….RICH, PITCH, POWER
UNDERCARRIAGE………………………..UP
FLAPS………………………………………UP
IDENTIFY…….DEAD LEG – DEAD ENGINE
CONFIRM………………..CLOSE THROTTLE
FEATHER…………………….DEAD ENGINE
ADVISE INTENTIONS TO ATC
LOOK AFTER LIVE ENGINE
ENGINE FAILURE IN CRUISE
CONTROL………… …………………YAW
AIRSPEED……………ABOVE BLUE LINE
POWER…………… RICH, PITCH, POWER
UNDERCARRIAGE… …………………..UP
FLAPS…………………………………….UP
IDENTIFY…..DEAD LEG – DEAD ENGINE
CONFIRM……..CLOSE DEAD THROTTLE
TRIM……………..RUDDER & ELEVATOR
TROUBLE CHECKS ON DEAD ENGINE
Have you seen the undercarriage on a P68?
ENGINE FAILURE AFTER TAKEOFF OR
TERRAIN CRITICAL
CONTROL ……………………..………..YAW
AIRSPEED………………………..BLUE LINE6
POWER……………….RICH, PITCH, POWER
UNDERCARRIAGE………………………..UP
FLAPS………………………………………UP
IDENTIFY…….DEAD LEG – DEAD ENGINE
CONFIRM………………..CLOSE THROTTLE
FEATHER…………………….DEAD ENGINE
ADVISE INTENTIONS TO ATC
LOOK AFTER LIVE ENGINE
ENGINE FAILURE IN CRUISE
CONTROL………… …………………YAW
AIRSPEED……………ABOVE BLUE LINE
POWER…………… RICH, PITCH, POWER
UNDERCARRIAGE… …………………..UP
FLAPS…………………………………….UP
IDENTIFY…..DEAD LEG – DEAD ENGINE
CONFIRM……..CLOSE DEAD THROTTLE
TRIM……………..RUDDER & ELEVATOR
TROUBLE CHECKS ON DEAD ENGINE
Have you seen the undercarriage on a P68?
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Somewhere between MSL and the Stratosphere
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BelArg....just a thought. I agree with the Flaps and Trim calls. Why the spoilers?? When, IF EVER in gods name do you ever extend the spoilers before takeoff?? During taxi...???!!! In the same spirit somebody decides to add gear down and locked in a fixed gear SE acrt and u call it rubbish....??!!?...
.
So why dont we include in the "holy trinity" the words 'Trim,flaps,spoilers and all engines running'. Cause a failure on that part would also result in a whole lotta twisted metal!! Jeeeese. Gimme a break!
The "Holy Trinity" IMHO should be a loud announcement by the PM or PNF or CM2(whatever u wish to call him)......." TAKEOFF--CHECKLIST--COMPLETE ".
With an eyeball confirmation by both pilots.
As instructed to me by Messrs Boeing......
.So why dont we include in the "holy trinity" the words 'Trim,flaps,spoilers and all engines running'. Cause a failure on that part would also result in a whole lotta twisted metal!! Jeeeese. Gimme a break!
The "Holy Trinity" IMHO should be a loud announcement by the PM or PNF or CM2(whatever u wish to call him)......." TAKEOFF--CHECKLIST--COMPLETE ".
With an eyeball confirmation by both pilots.
As instructed to me by Messrs Boeing......
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pacific
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always had a problem with companies that thought they knew better than the manufacturer. Boeing checklists only have critical items (not necessarily your company checklist; even if you are told it is "Boeing" it is probably not) and the Before Takeoff Checklist should only have Flaps. The control checks, doors etc are now part of the Before Start checks or After Start. Flaps has no part of the pre-taxy procedure because it sometimes has to be set just before takeoff. Setting flaps while on the ramp also reduces ground clearance, presenting a chance of damage due to collision with ground equipment, and in addition reduces the ground observer's vision when checking for pushback obstacles.
So supposing you use the correct (manufacturer's) procedures, simply carry out the Pre-Takeoff Checklist before takeoff. Simple. End of story. If you don't, still carry out the Pre-Takeoff Checklist before takeoff. What is hard about that?
So supposing you use the correct (manufacturer's) procedures, simply carry out the Pre-Takeoff Checklist before takeoff. Simple. End of story. If you don't, still carry out the Pre-Takeoff Checklist before takeoff. What is hard about that?