B737 - forgetting to set take off flap?
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The oldies (and not so oldies in Dan's case) have it spot on here.
As a relative newbie to commercial flying (ust over 3000hrs) I guess I can remember the early days of blatting around the circuit in a PA28 learning the ropes.
Perhaps I've just been lucky but I believe I have had some good role models and instructors, from PPL through CPL, FI and finally commercial flying.
My various instructors all had their own little tricks and tips to ensure they kept out of trouble.
They included things many of you may recall. Check DI on line up, Time/Turn/Talk/FREDA at a waypoint, Red's Blue's Greens on short final, etc etc etc. Additionally they drummed those tips into my thick skull, along with the other obvious points such as the importance of MSA and maintaining SA etc.
When I instructed I tried to take the best of those tips and pass them onto my students, in the hope that it would help them.
Flying commercially I have taken and adapted them to form my own, personal SOP's that I run through at various flight phases (before start, line up, TOC, Cruise, TOD etc). Anal? Maybe. Over the top? Possibly. Saving my own butt? Absolutely.
We all make mistakes, and airline managers seem to think the best way to prevent re-occurance is a modified SOP or checklist. Maybe thats true, but it's killing off airmanship and resulting in pilots that believe if they blindly follow SOP and the checklist everything will be alright, and I'm afraid thats just not true.
As a relative newbie to commercial flying (ust over 3000hrs) I guess I can remember the early days of blatting around the circuit in a PA28 learning the ropes.
Perhaps I've just been lucky but I believe I have had some good role models and instructors, from PPL through CPL, FI and finally commercial flying.
My various instructors all had their own little tricks and tips to ensure they kept out of trouble.
They included things many of you may recall. Check DI on line up, Time/Turn/Talk/FREDA at a waypoint, Red's Blue's Greens on short final, etc etc etc. Additionally they drummed those tips into my thick skull, along with the other obvious points such as the importance of MSA and maintaining SA etc.
When I instructed I tried to take the best of those tips and pass them onto my students, in the hope that it would help them.
Flying commercially I have taken and adapted them to form my own, personal SOP's that I run through at various flight phases (before start, line up, TOC, Cruise, TOD etc). Anal? Maybe. Over the top? Possibly. Saving my own butt? Absolutely.
We all make mistakes, and airline managers seem to think the best way to prevent re-occurance is a modified SOP or checklist. Maybe thats true, but it's killing off airmanship and resulting in pilots that believe if they blindly follow SOP and the checklist everything will be alright, and I'm afraid thats just not true.
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Standard Boeing("aircraft make") procedures
Boofhead - great point - every aircraft I have been on A320, B737,B767 and B747 we have been told that we use standard Boeiing /Airbus procedures and on every aircraft it has not been true. The company cannot seem to leave the manufacturer to do its job. Even after they have carried out a review and stated that they are going back to Boeing !!! I think this is the cause of half of the issues.
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Airmanship
I completely agree - companies seem to think they can legislate for it and you never can. Also if you take away all individual decision making and a problem comes up that requires "commonsense" or "airmanship" the crew will have had it drilled out of them - I can think of one crash of a B747 in which this was the case - incorrect company procedures and crew not thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To Boeingdream787---what if some one forgot to stow the spoilers after landing, i.e an ATC distraction during the after landing checks!!!
I agree 100% percent with BelArgUSA and with 411a
it should be [not just my opinion]
Flaps
Trim
Spoilers
Runway Correct
Runway clear [if that can be really ascertained not in RVR 3 conditions!]
Minus as Old Smokey has said in other threads all of the VD [verbal diarrhea]
I'll go further to add that even if my official SOPS didn't include this flow I'd say it to myself in my head if necessary, perhaps have a humble chat with the DFO or CP---that is Airmanship
And if they wanted a load of talk during takeoff or approach well I'd give it to them.
Following religiously the first set of rules keeps you alive---the second set keeps you your job
PA
I agree 100% percent with BelArgUSA and with 411a
it should be [not just my opinion]
Flaps
Trim
Spoilers
Runway Correct
Runway clear [if that can be really ascertained not in RVR 3 conditions!]
Minus as Old Smokey has said in other threads all of the VD [verbal diarrhea]
I'll go further to add that even if my official SOPS didn't include this flow I'd say it to myself in my head if necessary, perhaps have a humble chat with the DFO or CP---that is Airmanship
And if they wanted a load of talk during takeoff or approach well I'd give it to them.
Following religiously the first set of rules keeps you alive---the second set keeps you your job
PA
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 1st Nov 2007 at 14:31.
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PA....how often have you landed AND taken off without carrying out the shutdown checklist...!!
I personally never have.And having instructed considerably on at least 6 different types of medium and heavy jets,i can tell you with well placed confidence that the ONLY time that i've done no shutdown checks or pre flight checks after a landing and prior to a take off is during touch n go's,which too are passe today in the day of the FFS and zero hour sims.
It seems you've strayed from the chain of thought a bit my friend....
I personally never have.And having instructed considerably on at least 6 different types of medium and heavy jets,i can tell you with well placed confidence that the ONLY time that i've done no shutdown checks or pre flight checks after a landing and prior to a take off is during touch n go's,which too are passe today in the day of the FFS and zero hour sims.
It seems you've strayed from the chain of thought a bit my friend....
Boeingdream 787 ---I've never forgotten a whole checklist
but I've forgotten items on checklistwhile distracted only to note them embarassingly later
luckily they weren't killers--- obviously
I don't trust a previous crew because I was not there, and I don't trust myself because it has happened before to others and I'm a human like others ---sort of
although it would take a 'double failure'---there are precedents!!!!!
I do not think I'm missing the point---I just don't want to die!
but I've forgotten items on checklistwhile distracted only to note them embarassingly later
luckily they weren't killers--- obviouslyI don't trust a previous crew because I was not there, and I don't trust myself because it has happened before to others and I'm a human like others ---sort of
although it would take a 'double failure'---there are precedents!!!!!
I do not think I'm missing the point---I just don't want to die!
