no taxi-out checklist
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no taxi-out checklist
Our company is in the middle of changing procedures.
One of them is to exclude the taxi-out checklist (performed during taxiing), and instead move some items to the Before taxi checklist ( F.i. setting flaps, controls check, V speeds checking)
My own observation:
Pro : No distraction during taxi-out, both pilots can focus on looking outside
Con: some time delay since your spending more time after the pushback is completed.
my questions:
What are your thoughts about this change ?
Does your own company use a taxi-out checklist?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me!
One of them is to exclude the taxi-out checklist (performed during taxiing), and instead move some items to the Before taxi checklist ( F.i. setting flaps, controls check, V speeds checking)
My own observation:
Pro : No distraction during taxi-out, both pilots can focus on looking outside
Con: some time delay since your spending more time after the pushback is completed.
my questions:
What are your thoughts about this change ?
Does your own company use a taxi-out checklist?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me!
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agree there are pros and cons
Remember when changing the check list it must work for your type of operations, for example in Moscow, flaps in winter are a very late item.
Transition is not at 180, so cosideration should be given to the differences in available time after transition.
Lastly should there be an incident then the lawyers will have a field day, as you might have not complied with the manufactures procedures.
But I would say: if it works for you do it.
Glf
Transition is not at 180, so cosideration should be given to the differences in available time after transition.
Lastly should there be an incident then the lawyers will have a field day, as you might have not complied with the manufactures procedures.
But I would say: if it works for you do it.
Glf
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Very few accidents occur as a result of spending more time readying things after push back. A considerable number of accidents happen during taxying, not least as a result of distractions associated with checklists.
One outfit I know of - another airbus operator, have the crew do a full flight instrument check, which takes about 25 seconds to recite, during taxying. During this, both pilots are meant to cross check ASI readings, V speeds, autopilot and flight director status, heading ( four times) etc.... At the same time, both are meant to be monitoring what is going on outside. Talk about looking for an accident to happen.
One outfit I know of - another airbus operator, have the crew do a full flight instrument check, which takes about 25 seconds to recite, during taxying. During this, both pilots are meant to cross check ASI readings, V speeds, autopilot and flight director status, heading ( four times) etc.... At the same time, both are meant to be monitoring what is going on outside. Talk about looking for an accident to happen.
About 6 months ago my company changed from having a Before Takeoff Checklist to a Before Taxi Checklist. Now all we do on the taxi is an abbreviated Before Takeoff which has flaps, takeoff briefing and cabin. To be honest I think it is much better and not really any slower. I find all the checks and checkslist items bar Ground Clearance and Flight Controls can be actioned while waiting for the despatch engineer to disconnect and signal.
We fly 733's if that makes any difference to your thoughts.
BTW why don't you do your V speeds in your before start items?
We fly 733's if that makes any difference to your thoughts.
BTW why don't you do your V speeds in your before start items?
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We just added a bunch of the previous "Taxi Checklist" items to the "After Engine Start" (pre-taxi) checklist. So far, I think the rush in the chocks is worse than doing it while taxiing.
This can lead to a very rushed situation when number one or two for departure. Look at what a rushed situation did to an experienced CRJ crew in Lexington, Kentucky recently, which might have already done their checklists. Very experienced flightcrews have forgotten to set takeoff flaps in hazardous runway layouts such as a B-757 crew in Boston (BOS), and probably at MDW and HOU etc. A takeoff warning has saved some crews, but they can malfunction, or not alert you if slats are set but mistakenly with zero flaps for a high density altitude takeoff!
In my flying since 1978, I have never seen the type of checklist operation which you described, whether on very small training planes, twin or four-engine turboprops, or on turbofans with about 100-194 seats. What can be critical is to not do flows or checklists when crossing any possible active runway. Plan to do the flows and, at a minimum, the checklist which covers slats/flaps, stabilizer trim, speed bugs and VOR course when stopped, where ATC can not bug you much on a fairly long taxiway, or on the other side of a runway and tell the other pilot. Cancel a takeoff or 'cleared into position to hold'/'line up and wait (YYZ)' clearance etc if feeling rushed or unsure of what has been done. A good real world example? About two years ago at MKE, ATC bugged us so much every ten seconds when crossing two runways, we were unable to begin or finish the Taxi Checklist until the FO told the guy to just standby a little bit (and leave us alone). There was no reason to rashly switch radio freqs or hurry. Good grief....
It would be best to intially set flaps before the aircraft even begins to taxi after pushback (as my company requires) and the controls, arm the anti-skid switch, or when we are stopped, just after turning out of a gate. We then call for taxi. I began flying this type in late 1985, but a mistake is always possible.
The only time this was not done was at a company which had us unlock the controls on a Shorts 330/360 just before takeoff, and I never cared for this. At my company, we check the flaps a second time on the very short Before Takeoff Checklist. It can be wise to also double-check the control yoke, glance again at the (retracted?) spoiler handle, the stab trim and the elev/rudder trim positions and the altitude set in the alerter. Most things that can kill you during an attempted takeoff are just a few things on some part of the throttle quadrant or behind it, and are very easy to double-check. With reduced flaps or extra overspeed, a quick glance at the speed book and your speed bugs can really help improve safety. The immense improvement in safety with this technique can require just five or six seconds, before and as you are lined up on the runway centerline.
I would never accept delaying the configuration of basic critical items until late in the taxi process.
You will be under pressure or given a new EDCT for a quick departure, or have a problem in the cabin. As a group, line pilots, especially those who were Instructors or Check Airmen etc, should have a major influence over such options and very questionable decisions. Even a very short Before Takeoff Check can be rushed with the sudden request or changing requirements of a Tower controller (i.e. "north boundary winds are now 330 at 8 knots, climb and maintain [only] 3,000'...cleared for takeoff on runway 18R"), as everybody is well aware. And very soon we will keep track of de-icing fluid holdover times, engine clearing at 70% N1 for 15 seconds, and at what altitude to use airfoil anti-ice after takoff. What a time to be setting flaps, stab trim, speed bugs etc! Don't blindly accept any new SOPS policy or checklist operation if it appears to be unsafe-speak up about it.
In my flying since 1978, I have never seen the type of checklist operation which you described, whether on very small training planes, twin or four-engine turboprops, or on turbofans with about 100-194 seats. What can be critical is to not do flows or checklists when crossing any possible active runway. Plan to do the flows and, at a minimum, the checklist which covers slats/flaps, stabilizer trim, speed bugs and VOR course when stopped, where ATC can not bug you much on a fairly long taxiway, or on the other side of a runway and tell the other pilot. Cancel a takeoff or 'cleared into position to hold'/'line up and wait (YYZ)' clearance etc if feeling rushed or unsure of what has been done. A good real world example? About two years ago at MKE, ATC bugged us so much every ten seconds when crossing two runways, we were unable to begin or finish the Taxi Checklist until the FO told the guy to just standby a little bit (and leave us alone). There was no reason to rashly switch radio freqs or hurry. Good grief....
It would be best to intially set flaps before the aircraft even begins to taxi after pushback (as my company requires) and the controls, arm the anti-skid switch, or when we are stopped, just after turning out of a gate. We then call for taxi. I began flying this type in late 1985, but a mistake is always possible.
The only time this was not done was at a company which had us unlock the controls on a Shorts 330/360 just before takeoff, and I never cared for this. At my company, we check the flaps a second time on the very short Before Takeoff Checklist. It can be wise to also double-check the control yoke, glance again at the (retracted?) spoiler handle, the stab trim and the elev/rudder trim positions and the altitude set in the alerter. Most things that can kill you during an attempted takeoff are just a few things on some part of the throttle quadrant or behind it, and are very easy to double-check. With reduced flaps or extra overspeed, a quick glance at the speed book and your speed bugs can really help improve safety. The immense improvement in safety with this technique can require just five or six seconds, before and as you are lined up on the runway centerline.
I would never accept delaying the configuration of basic critical items until late in the taxi process.
You will be under pressure or given a new EDCT for a quick departure, or have a problem in the cabin. As a group, line pilots, especially those who were Instructors or Check Airmen etc, should have a major influence over such options and very questionable decisions. Even a very short Before Takeoff Check can be rushed with the sudden request or changing requirements of a Tower controller (i.e. "north boundary winds are now 330 at 8 knots, climb and maintain [only] 3,000'...cleared for takeoff on runway 18R"), as everybody is well aware. And very soon we will keep track of de-icing fluid holdover times, engine clearing at 70% N1 for 15 seconds, and at what altitude to use airfoil anti-ice after takoff. What a time to be setting flaps, stab trim, speed bugs etc! Don't blindly accept any new SOPS policy or checklist operation if it appears to be unsafe-speak up about it.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 19th Oct 2006 at 03:58.
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Im with Ignition Override here. Particularly in Europe when the time to the expiry of the slot is small. Sitting on the apron doing checks will, in my view, lead to more pressure to rush the taxi. It's also bloody inconsiderate for anyone who is now unable to manoeuver as you have left your stand but have yet to taxi off.
Theres also an cost or environmental consideration, Youre sat still with engines running doing checks. I recently sussed that one corporate operators checklist was wasting around £400 a year this way over just a few items per flight.
I would advocate andoing anything that involves too much 'looking in' when stationary but think that the whole checklist standing still is overkill in this regard.
I also advocate a 'Takeoff Configuration' Check. This should be taylored to cover the things that are going to really spoil your day n the specific type as well as the more obvious generic ones. One addition to this I have is that if there is an aircraft key or keys, Takeoff Power does not get set unless both flightcrew have sight of the key at the time your'e about to take off.
Theres also an cost or environmental consideration, Youre sat still with engines running doing checks. I recently sussed that one corporate operators checklist was wasting around £400 a year this way over just a few items per flight.
I would advocate andoing anything that involves too much 'looking in' when stationary but think that the whole checklist standing still is overkill in this regard.
I also advocate a 'Takeoff Configuration' Check. This should be taylored to cover the things that are going to really spoil your day n the specific type as well as the more obvious generic ones. One addition to this I have is that if there is an aircraft key or keys, Takeoff Power does not get set unless both flightcrew have sight of the key at the time your'e about to take off.
As is so easy to do in this situation I think the conversation is blurring the lines between checks and checklist. What I was trying to say is, in my company all after start checks and the checklist bar two items (flight controls, ground clearance) are completed while waiting for the engineer to disconnect. This means that at no time during the taxi are you conducting checks, just a three item before takeoff checklist. I think this is an improvement on the old way we did things which included a flight control check during taxi.
The concern people are expressing about delays while you sit there blocking the taxi way while you do checks is not necessary. I don't see that it causes any tangible delay at all having done it both ways.
The concern people are expressing about delays while you sit there blocking the taxi way while you do checks is not necessary. I don't see that it causes any tangible delay at all having done it both ways.
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We completely removed the 'during-taxi' checks and I can tell you it's a lot better.
While doing after-start checks before taxi you are able to really pay attention at the check items ( how many times you responded check,while taxiing,when you were actually looking out and thinking 'what's going on with that truck?')
Also we were able to discover some minor problems before leaving the apron (imagine in LHR to ask,while half-way to rwy ,to return to stand due to..i.e.flaps stuck,..)
In a busy enviroment you are not only taxiing,you also are listening on the freq,maintain situational awareness,knowin who's nr1,who'll stop,who comes from the right...etc (not if you are in some places where they insist on speaking their own language,and you don't know it ).The point is you'd better dedicate 100% atention to that,instead on splitting 50% with the check,and risking not doing any of it perfectlly.
About the fuel burnt...
...there is more to talk..i.e some engines need a time at idle after start,usually 2-3 min..more than enaugh for the after start check,or how much will cost hitting something while checking instruments during taxi (a lot more than the 400 HS was talking about)....
While doing after-start checks before taxi you are able to really pay attention at the check items ( how many times you responded check,while taxiing,when you were actually looking out and thinking 'what's going on with that truck?')
Also we were able to discover some minor problems before leaving the apron (imagine in LHR to ask,while half-way to rwy ,to return to stand due to..i.e.flaps stuck,..)
In a busy enviroment you are not only taxiing,you also are listening on the freq,maintain situational awareness,knowin who's nr1,who'll stop,who comes from the right...etc (not if you are in some places where they insist on speaking their own language,and you don't know it ).The point is you'd better dedicate 100% atention to that,instead on splitting 50% with the check,and risking not doing any of it perfectlly.
About the fuel burnt...
...there is more to talk..i.e some engines need a time at idle after start,usually 2-3 min..more than enaugh for the after start check,or how much will cost hitting something while checking instruments during taxi (a lot more than the 400 HS was talking about)....
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I think the clarifications to the procedure do make this seem more sensible than I first thought.
A valid point, at the risk of digressing from the the thread, not only is this type dependant, but it isnt true of all situations on a given type, I've had to sit for almost 10 minutes on occasion whilst the oil warmed up to the green so we could increase power from idle.
About the fuel burnt... ...there is more to talk..i.e some engines need a time at idle after start,usually 2-3 min..more than enaugh for the after start check,or how much will cost hitting something while checking instruments during taxi (a lot more than the 400 HS was talking about)....
...there is more to talk..i.e some engines need a time at idle after start,usually 2-3 min..more than enaugh for the after start check,or how much will cost hitting something while checking instruments during taxi (a lot more than the 400 HS was talking about)....
Boeings new checklist
We have had the new Boeing checklist with no taxi while running checks for almost a year now.
It takes no longer than the previous checklist, as we are still waiting for the engineer to disconnect during most of the checks and just have the rudder free check to go until the ground release
It takes no longer than the previous checklist, as we are still waiting for the engineer to disconnect during most of the checks and just have the rudder free check to go until the ground release
- Crew awarness during taxi is greatly increased
- There is NO way I would like to go back to the old Checklist as this one is vastly superior.
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Thanks guys for your answers.
No, we have no new chief pilot in our company, but our management has decided to go back to "Basic Operating Philosophy" short BOP.
That means that our procedures should be as close as possible to the procedures Boeing/Airbus prescribes.
I haven't worked with the new checklists, they are going to be introduced in january next year.
We validate our speeds in the before engine starting checklist, but we repeat them as part of the crewbriefing during taxi out checklist.
Let's wait and see how the new procedures are going to work out.
No, we have no new chief pilot in our company, but our management has decided to go back to "Basic Operating Philosophy" short BOP.
That means that our procedures should be as close as possible to the procedures Boeing/Airbus prescribes.
I haven't worked with the new checklists, they are going to be introduced in january next year.
BTW why don't you do your V speeds in your before start items?
Let's wait and see how the new procedures are going to work out.
About "setting V speeds in your Before Start items", quite often our ACARS has not received (from Load Control) our actual gross weight (with stab setting and which flap setting) until we are half way to the runway, or even number two at the runway. We sometimes must pull over to the holding ramp or an empty parallel taxiway. So what if it adds two minutes to the block time, or ATC must change an EDCT clearance?
Don't forget that as Captain, you can set a safer pace than what ATC is aware of. The hard-working
First Officers to my right should not be rushed too much.
These FOs have always been the busiest pilots at the entire airline, i.e. even with the former 727, present A-320, 757, 747 'classic' etc-even when we only fly 3-4 legs a day, on some trips. These planes have no actual automation except for altitude and LOC or ILS coupling, and have 100-122 seats.
Don't forget that as Captain, you can set a safer pace than what ATC is aware of. The hard-working
First Officers to my right should not be rushed too much. These FOs have always been the busiest pilots at the entire airline, i.e. even with the former 727, present A-320, 757, 747 'classic' etc-even when we only fly 3-4 legs a day, on some trips. These planes have no actual automation except for altitude and LOC or ILS coupling, and have 100-122 seats.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 23rd Oct 2006 at 06:19.
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Checklists
Interesting reading the various comments. Would have to say that all the checklists in the end are not going to solve all the problems. Our checks are almost all done before taxi. Just a short pretakeoff check. Other day - taxied out and held for runway - all checks complete - runway change - redid the numbers - changed them all and the flaps and did the pretakeoff check. All complete - you would think. Taxiied over currently active runway for new runway in line the 6 others. Flap had been selected incorrectly - but when we had looked a the gauge it was correct as it jumped immediately form 15 to 5 ( unfortunately had been set at one) - slower to get there . Noticed at T/O time!!! You read the accident reports and say "How did that happen??? it could never "HAPPEN TO ME" - but it can!!!! 
Moral of the story - check and recheck!!!!! despite the checklists.
Moral of the story - check and recheck!!!!! despite the checklists.
Last edited by moonbase; 17th Oct 2007 at 20:37. Reason: spelling
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You can't eliminate taxi checks altogether although I would suggest that they should be minimised.
Contaminated taxiways will require delayed extension of flaps so obviously the config will need to be checked at some point during taxi.
A very important part of our taxy checks is the take-off review where we confirm correct config, cabin secure and ammend the brief if necessary due to weather, runway changes etc.
Contaminated taxiways will require delayed extension of flaps so obviously the config will need to be checked at some point during taxi.
A very important part of our taxy checks is the take-off review where we confirm correct config, cabin secure and ammend the brief if necessary due to weather, runway changes etc.
