Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)
I Have Control
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Chill, dude
Hey Final 3 Greens, you better get out more often!
Granted some may agree and some may disagree with the line I wrote, and I am prepared to accept that I can be wrong. But there is really no need to shout.
If my contribution was the most idiotic thing you have read for a while, pray why not check out some other threads or even, for example, the BBC website? Or CNN for that matter.
Idiocy is a bit of an offensive label, and I feel you were being more than rude there.
Granted some may agree and some may disagree with the line I wrote, and I am prepared to accept that I can be wrong. But there is really no need to shout.
If my contribution was the most idiotic thing you have read for a while, pray why not check out some other threads or even, for example, the BBC website? Or CNN for that matter.
Idiocy is a bit of an offensive label, and I feel you were being more than rude there.
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fmgc
3 Greens, surley that is not a traiing fix but a "real" fix.
I tend to agree with you. I wasn't totally lost, but unsure enough of where the zone boundary was. There was heavy haze and bright sunshine and although it was about 8Km viz, I just couldn't see my waypoint - that was a real lesson learned
It just happened that the training fix procedure was the most expeditious method under the circumstances ... "London D&D, G-ABCD training fix training fix training fix", receiving a rapid bearing and distance in response.
All over in seconds and a potential zone bust avoided. And a couple of hours invested afterwards in learning how to track navaids with an instructor made sure it never happened again.
3 Greens, surley that is not a traiing fix but a "real" fix.
I tend to agree with you. I wasn't totally lost, but unsure enough of where the zone boundary was. There was heavy haze and bright sunshine and although it was about 8Km viz, I just couldn't see my waypoint - that was a real lesson learned
It just happened that the training fix procedure was the most expeditious method under the circumstances ... "London D&D, G-ABCD training fix training fix training fix", receiving a rapid bearing and distance in response.
All over in seconds and a potential zone bust avoided. And a couple of hours invested afterwards in learning how to track navaids with an instructor made sure it never happened again.
Beady Eye
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Originally Posted by PENKO
A lot has been said..
Yet I still cannot understand the safety aspect of this whole homing business. Chaps, the Great War is over! We are not flying Lancasters anymore eventhough I am sure they had better navigational solutions!
Teach your students some basic VOR navigation, let them buy a handheld GPS, even an ordinary PDA with a TomTom moving map will do. Even more, it will prevent you getting lost in the first place.
This homing is a thing of the past.
Yet I still cannot understand the safety aspect of this whole homing business. Chaps, the Great War is over! We are not flying Lancasters anymore eventhough I am sure they had better navigational solutions!
Teach your students some basic VOR navigation, let them buy a handheld GPS, even an ordinary PDA with a TomTom moving map will do. Even more, it will prevent you getting lost in the first place.
This homing is a thing of the past.
The 'safety' aspect has two parts to it really:
1) If you're lost and IMC then its quite possible that you'll suffer a CFIT.
2) If you're lost and blundering around inside controlled airspace then identification, with position fixing will get the previously lost aircraft out of the way before some metal gets welded. Controllers are legally entitled to assume that non squawking aircraft are not within controlled airspace and they will direct their own aircraft right through a non squawking radar target.
BD
Stats Stats Stats
Are we in danger of mis reading the stats here in the FODCOM?
BTW I have no axe to grind as a GA FI and an airline pilot.
training fixes were
were erroneous or inadvertent calls by commercial pilots.
From neither statement can we deduce how much airtime is taken up by these erroneous calls nor what percentage of calls were training fixes.
The FODCOM is probably trying to make a valid point but I would not have written it that way.
BTW I have no axe to grind as a GA FI and an airline pilot.
training fixes were
less than 1% of total ‘air time’
75% of all calls
From neither statement can we deduce how much airtime is taken up by these erroneous calls nor what percentage of calls were training fixes.
The FODCOM is probably trying to make a valid point but I would not have written it that way.
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Originally Posted by JW411
Am I out of step here? Am I the only guy who turns 121.5 right down or even off when I am in a busy ATC environment?
STH
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With all this chatter, I'm lost!
My company which spends half its time flying through TMA's has no policy about listening to 121.50. If you receive no R/T for a bit we do radio check or revert to previous freq...Simply as. We have no time to monitor another frequency.
As an instructor of PPL, come on commercial pilots. Do you remember the first time you picked up the mike to do a PA???? All very well talking about it but doing it is another kettle of fish. Now think back to your PPL if you can? Again yeah, we can use GPS blah blah blah. But when the **** hits the fan and you are lost and totally out your depth, you have a hand on the stick and no further mental capacity.......dial 121.50 and call "Help".
You professional guys forget. Its exactly because of comments and attitudes of clever wits that stops PPL's having the ordacity to press the PTT on 121.50 for "fear" of sounding a dick. So why not (as an FI) ask the D&D controller if its a good moment - to then prove to the stude that actually, when you really need the service - stuff protocol and sounding "correct" - just talk to the fella and ask for help......
Jesus, one day this pilot is going to need it. Whether it be 121.50 or an active radar frequency. On the basis most normal frequnecies are max'd out all the time, why not do it when the D&D can accept.
As a student or new PPL, its grand to know that in reality, when you need help on whatever freqency, it doesn't matter what you say aslong as you talk and obtain help. Cos then - LIFE IS SAVED.
Same with boating - most boats have a GPS etc - when its rough and sea pouring over the open deck - we have to resort to belt n braces. Compass et al. SAme with flying - try fart arsing around with a GPS when you don't know your arse from your elbow?
I find it very sad that people are reluctant to use a distress frequency because of fear of reprisal. If true professional's can't deal with a facet of learning the ropes then I am ashamed to be part of this profession.
My company which spends half its time flying through TMA's has no policy about listening to 121.50. If you receive no R/T for a bit we do radio check or revert to previous freq...Simply as. We have no time to monitor another frequency.
As an instructor of PPL, come on commercial pilots. Do you remember the first time you picked up the mike to do a PA???? All very well talking about it but doing it is another kettle of fish. Now think back to your PPL if you can? Again yeah, we can use GPS blah blah blah. But when the **** hits the fan and you are lost and totally out your depth, you have a hand on the stick and no further mental capacity.......dial 121.50 and call "Help".
You professional guys forget. Its exactly because of comments and attitudes of clever wits that stops PPL's having the ordacity to press the PTT on 121.50 for "fear" of sounding a dick. So why not (as an FI) ask the D&D controller if its a good moment - to then prove to the stude that actually, when you really need the service - stuff protocol and sounding "correct" - just talk to the fella and ask for help......
Jesus, one day this pilot is going to need it. Whether it be 121.50 or an active radar frequency. On the basis most normal frequnecies are max'd out all the time, why not do it when the D&D can accept.
As a student or new PPL, its grand to know that in reality, when you need help on whatever freqency, it doesn't matter what you say aslong as you talk and obtain help. Cos then - LIFE IS SAVED.
Same with boating - most boats have a GPS etc - when its rough and sea pouring over the open deck - we have to resort to belt n braces. Compass et al. SAme with flying - try fart arsing around with a GPS when you don't know your arse from your elbow?
I find it very sad that people are reluctant to use a distress frequency because of fear of reprisal. If true professional's can't deal with a facet of learning the ropes then I am ashamed to be part of this profession.
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there cant be that many trianing calls wasting time on the D&D, several occasions I've been asked whilst travelling north to scotland, to call them for thier practice .
Incidentally I now fly commercially into europe on a daily basis and commercial pilots are definately the worst offenders of misuse of the frequency.
Nothing worse than trying to listen to a controller pass a freq change/heading/alt just to have 121.5 blast into life with some **** talking to his mate. As said early normally results in turning the thing down to a level where you can only just hear voices, so could be anything going on.
Incidentally I now fly commercially into europe on a daily basis and commercial pilots are definately the worst offenders of misuse of the frequency.
Nothing worse than trying to listen to a controller pass a freq change/heading/alt just to have 121.5 blast into life with some **** talking to his mate. As said early normally results in turning the thing down to a level where you can only just hear voices, so could be anything going on.
I have every sympathy with both the student and GA pilot using 121.5 to save their lives. I have trained many to use it without hesitation. I taught PPLs at EGCW and we refered to 121.5 as "EGCW Radar" - being hard to find anyway and churning out 60 PPLs a year we were one of their biggest customers!
And yet. The current situation is that on many days many airliners are turning 121.5 down to nothing because of the high levels of GA use. They then forget to turn them up again 5 minutes later. There are several ways of tackling this flight safety hazard. My preferance would be to invest in a 121.4 solely for GA use in the UK airspace offering a dedicated D&D service.
Cheers
WWW
And yet. The current situation is that on many days many airliners are turning 121.5 down to nothing because of the high levels of GA use. They then forget to turn them up again 5 minutes later. There are several ways of tackling this flight safety hazard. My preferance would be to invest in a 121.4 solely for GA use in the UK airspace offering a dedicated D&D service.
Cheers
WWW
Beady Eye
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Originally Posted by Wee Weasley Welshman
My preferance would be to invest in a 121.4 solely for GA use in the UK airspace offering a dedicated D&D service.
NATS currently provide the infrastructure for 121.5 and the RAF are paid to provide the trained manpower. The current provision is a part of the licensing requirements of the CAA. Provision of another service would have to be negotiated and, as NATS are a privately owned company and its not a part of their licensing agreement, paid for.
BD
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BDiONU said "GA don't pay for emergency services provided by D&D? " By this are you inferring that others do? If that is not the case then why single out GA as not paying. Can we please be clear on something. GA PAYS IN MANY WAYS THAT CAT DOES NOT.
SirToppamHat:
"Please don't do this in the UK. Unless you want to fly in formation to an unscheduled destination".
I question your priorities, old son. Are you really telling me that you have 121.5 turned up fully whilst going round the Lambourne hold? Are you really telling me that you have 121.5 turned fully up when you are on finals at Heathrow? If so, then I suggest you pay more attention to the radio that really matters at the time.
I agree with Mike Jenvey, turn it down or off below 10,000 feet.
I have been flying around UK for almost half a century now with no problems. You are only likely to get visitors when things have gone deathly quiet for no good reason.
The only times that I have ever been intercepted have been when we invited them to do so by "embellishing".
"Please don't do this in the UK. Unless you want to fly in formation to an unscheduled destination".
I question your priorities, old son. Are you really telling me that you have 121.5 turned up fully whilst going round the Lambourne hold? Are you really telling me that you have 121.5 turned fully up when you are on finals at Heathrow? If so, then I suggest you pay more attention to the radio that really matters at the time.
I agree with Mike Jenvey, turn it down or off below 10,000 feet.
I have been flying around UK for almost half a century now with no problems. You are only likely to get visitors when things have gone deathly quiet for no good reason.
The only times that I have ever been intercepted have been when we invited them to do so by "embellishing".
Last edited by JW411; 21st May 2006 at 11:08.
Beady Eye
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Originally Posted by WorkingHard
BDiONU said "GA don't pay for emergency services provided by D&D? " By this are you inferring that others do? If that is not the case then why single out GA as not paying. Can we please be clear on something. GA PAYS IN MANY WAYS THAT CAT DOES NOT.
Whilst I recognise that this may seem contentious to you WorkingHard GA do get a 'free ride' in a sense. It could be argued that provision of D&D should be considered to be like that of the Police, Fire, Ambulance and Coastguard. The difference being that they're publically funded bodies, NATS is a privately owned company which needs revenue to continue to stay in business. The current provision of Alerting & Fixing services is a part of NATS license to operate and I have no difficulty with that, where I see a problem is in provision of a new service.
Regards
BD
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Mike Jenvey/JW411
I don't disagree with the basic principle you state. And as long as you are in good 2-way comm with ATC you should be fine.
I merely wish to make the point that many of the transmissions on VHF Guard are made by ATC/D&D attempting to make contact with crews who are, at best, careless and at worst negligent when switching between agencies/countries. We have all heard these calls, and it wouldn't surprise me if they average out about the same, in terms of time, as the GA use. How many times does traffic entering the UK go to Oceanic to get clearance (which can be a lengthy process!) without telling ATC first? How can you be in receipt of a Radar Control Service if you aren't in contact with ATC? The professional approach espoused by so many in this forum doesn't seem to apply to all in this respect. It also seems to me that there are one or 2 carriers to whom calls are made more often than most others.
STH
Edited for bod spilling
I don't disagree with the basic principle you state. And as long as you are in good 2-way comm with ATC you should be fine.
I merely wish to make the point that many of the transmissions on VHF Guard are made by ATC/D&D attempting to make contact with crews who are, at best, careless and at worst negligent when switching between agencies/countries. We have all heard these calls, and it wouldn't surprise me if they average out about the same, in terms of time, as the GA use. How many times does traffic entering the UK go to Oceanic to get clearance (which can be a lengthy process!) without telling ATC first? How can you be in receipt of a Radar Control Service if you aren't in contact with ATC? The professional approach espoused by so many in this forum doesn't seem to apply to all in this respect. It also seems to me that there are one or 2 carriers to whom calls are made more often than most others.
STH
Edited for bod spilling
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 21st May 2006 at 16:03.
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Heathrow Director says on page 3
I'd say that on one on four flights through western European airspace, I hear Rhine or some other ATC agency calling up on 121.5 to some errant aircraft, instructing him to call them on xxx.xx.
Back to the main nub of the argument: no one is complaining about a GA (or any) pilot calling up on 121.5 if he's unsure of his position. However, it's the "Practice Pans" on that same emergency frequency that most non-UK pilots find a bit unusual.
I think I would be pretty safe in saying that this use of an emergency frequency as a training aid is something that happens nowhere else but in the UK. People trained in the UK grew up with it and don't find it a problem because it's what they've always been used to.
And yes, I leave 121.5 on and up in the Lambourne hold and on finals into Heathrow, (as per company SOP, it's always selected, except briefly, when that radio is used to contact the company or perhaps get an ATIS).
Did I say 'always'? That should be amended to "...except on Sunday afternoons in mid summer going ointo London, when the frequency is usually aclutter with "Practice *** PANs"!!!"
During my 31 years in UK ATC I was never trained to, and never trained anyone, to even think of using 121.5 to contact an aircraft when the normal frequency was busy, or for any other reason.
Back to the main nub of the argument: no one is complaining about a GA (or any) pilot calling up on 121.5 if he's unsure of his position. However, it's the "Practice Pans" on that same emergency frequency that most non-UK pilots find a bit unusual.
I think I would be pretty safe in saying that this use of an emergency frequency as a training aid is something that happens nowhere else but in the UK. People trained in the UK grew up with it and don't find it a problem because it's what they've always been used to.
And yes, I leave 121.5 on and up in the Lambourne hold and on finals into Heathrow, (as per company SOP, it's always selected, except briefly, when that radio is used to contact the company or perhaps get an ATIS).
Did I say 'always'? That should be amended to "...except on Sunday afternoons in mid summer going ointo London, when the frequency is usually aclutter with "Practice *** PANs"!!!"
Andu:the number of calls on 121.5 in Rhine airspace could be because the crew have omitted to either select or de-select 8.33kz on their radio, thus when changing to/from an 8.33 channel, they actually dial up the incorrect frequency
Andu:
"And yes, I leave 121.5 on and up in the Lambourne hold and on finals into Heathrow, (as per company SOP, it's always selected, except briefly, when that radio is used to contact the company or perhaps get an ATIS).....except on Sunday afternoons in UK ........".
I am totally fascinated by this. I have never ever flown for a company that insisted in its SOPs that I have to have 121.5 turned on and up in a high traffic environment. What would such an SOP be trying to achieve? There is a very good D & D organisation in the UK and the likelihood of you getting involved in relaying a Mayday whilst on finals at Heathrow is, quite frankly, risable.
Furthermore, are you seriously suggesting that your No.2 box would not be on the ATIS whilst LVPs were in force or do you REALLY switch back and forth to Guard? What does your SOP say about that?
Does it really say in your SOPs that you can ignore your SOPs on a Sunday afternoon in UK or are you admitting that you don't really follow SOPs that you (and I) think are pointless?
"And yes, I leave 121.5 on and up in the Lambourne hold and on finals into Heathrow, (as per company SOP, it's always selected, except briefly, when that radio is used to contact the company or perhaps get an ATIS).....except on Sunday afternoons in UK ........".
I am totally fascinated by this. I have never ever flown for a company that insisted in its SOPs that I have to have 121.5 turned on and up in a high traffic environment. What would such an SOP be trying to achieve? There is a very good D & D organisation in the UK and the likelihood of you getting involved in relaying a Mayday whilst on finals at Heathrow is, quite frankly, risable.
Furthermore, are you seriously suggesting that your No.2 box would not be on the ATIS whilst LVPs were in force or do you REALLY switch back and forth to Guard? What does your SOP say about that?
Does it really say in your SOPs that you can ignore your SOPs on a Sunday afternoon in UK or are you admitting that you don't really follow SOPs that you (and I) think are pointless?
Originally Posted by chevvron
Andu:the number of calls on 121.5 in Rhine airspace could be because the crew have omitted to either select or de-select 8.33kz on their radio, thus when changing to/from an 8.33 channel, they actually dial up the incorrect frequency
In the big scheme of things I guess it's not a major problem but every time someone does a practice PAN or uses 121.5 to call a mate upwards of a hundred airliners are having to turn the radio down to avoid missing ATC calls, you hear practice pans from the UK well down into France, and in Holland and Belgium so it's not just a problem confined to UK airspace. I used the service once when I got lost with about 60 hours in my logbook so I know it's great and you need to have some sort of practice at it but now that we are all encouraged (required really) to monitor 121.5 whenever possible it seems that perhaps another frequency, either for them or for us, would be very useful.
I have to say I turn off 121.5 when close to UK airspace during the day as there seems to be a lot more than 1% of the time taken up by practice calls (maybe I'm just unlucky). Having missed several clearances in the LTMA/Daventry area because someone fired off on the other frequency just at the wrong moment, I think I'm better concentrating on ATC. I don't do this anywhere else in the world as at least there is no official use of this channel.
The statistics may be in favour of the GA pilot but I think this misses the point in terms of distraction. With experience, you get to be able to monitor two, maybe three ATC frequencies simultaneously because you develop the ability to filter out communication not of interest to yourself. A 'company call' on 121.5 by mistake is short-lived and easy to disregard but I haven't yet acquired the knack of blocking out minutes of amateur RT. (Not meant to cause offence!) Somehow you find yourself giving attention to it when you don't want to.
Maybe we should ban all practice calls except for during NOTAM'd periods. 2-3pm on Sunday afternoons should suit those concerned.
The statistics may be in favour of the GA pilot but I think this misses the point in terms of distraction. With experience, you get to be able to monitor two, maybe three ATC frequencies simultaneously because you develop the ability to filter out communication not of interest to yourself. A 'company call' on 121.5 by mistake is short-lived and easy to disregard but I haven't yet acquired the knack of blocking out minutes of amateur RT. (Not meant to cause offence!) Somehow you find yourself giving attention to it when you don't want to.
Maybe we should ban all practice calls except for during NOTAM'd periods. 2-3pm on Sunday afternoons should suit those concerned.