Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)
Guest
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Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)
Fairly often see complaints here about the "misuse" of 121.5 for practice pans and position fixes by light aircraft.
Well, seems like the worst offenders for actually misusing the frequency are the people that are doing the complaining...
FODCOM 8/2006
WF.
Well, seems like the worst offenders for actually misusing the frequency are the people that are doing the complaining...
FODCOM 8/2006
WF.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 874
Likes: 13
From: South East.
Agreed, Warped Factor.
It was already acknowledged among instructors, particularly those operating close to the London TMA, that the use of 121.5 for training fixes was invaluable.
Just preventing minor nav. discrepancies becoming major emergencies or infringments by ensuring that students should have no fear of contacting D&D is small cost.
The fact that an early solo student still has help available and is not afraid to use it should things go awry can only be a major contribution to Flight Safety.
As a previous airline pilot with some "time" in, it has always amused me that the selection of Guard on Box #2 was not really of any real use except maybe over expanses of sea.
Perhaps the occasional reception of someone else's EMC ( or even an accidently-tripped EPIRB on a shore-bound dinghy) helped to relieve the boredom for a short while ?
As for accidently transmitting on COMM 2, by said devotees because of finger trouble, tune into the next ATIS instead, eh.
It was already acknowledged among instructors, particularly those operating close to the London TMA, that the use of 121.5 for training fixes was invaluable.
Just preventing minor nav. discrepancies becoming major emergencies or infringments by ensuring that students should have no fear of contacting D&D is small cost.
The fact that an early solo student still has help available and is not afraid to use it should things go awry can only be a major contribution to Flight Safety.
As a previous airline pilot with some "time" in, it has always amused me that the selection of Guard on Box #2 was not really of any real use except maybe over expanses of sea.
Perhaps the occasional reception of someone else's EMC ( or even an accidently-tripped EPIRB on a shore-bound dinghy) helped to relieve the boredom for a short while ?
As for accidently transmitting on COMM 2, by said devotees because of finger trouble, tune into the next ATIS instead, eh.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 525
Likes: 6
From: UK
Yep, 121.5 should be strictly reserved for passing ride reports and baseball scores at 30W.
30W!
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 649
Likes: 10
From: EU
It's not (only) the annoyance of having to listen to some practice pan or whatever, it's about missing atc-calls because of it.
And you end up turning the volume down on 121.5....
I think guard-misuse over Germany is bad, but over the UK it's the worst
And you end up turning the volume down on 121.5....
I think guard-misuse over Germany is bad, but over the UK it's the worst
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
From: Euroland
The abuse of 121.50 in he UK as a general training frequency needs to stop.
Do people have to make an actual call just to see that the system works?
No.
Just like people don't have to actually get lost during training before completing the lost procedure.
Most instructors I have come across who insist on students making a training call have no idea exactly what D+D can do or how they do it!.....They simply follow tradition!!
What percentage of pilots who after getting lost and using 121.50 had done a practice previously?
What percentage of pilots requesting a "training fix" or "practice" pan are actually lost?
Stop practice calls. Visit D+D insted. Then students can be briefed by a person who knows exactly what the service can and can't do as well as seeing the system in operation...........not a flight instructor who only knows what their instructor told them.
Regards,
DFC
Do people have to make an actual call just to see that the system works?
No.
Just like people don't have to actually get lost during training before completing the lost procedure.
Most instructors I have come across who insist on students making a training call have no idea exactly what D+D can do or how they do it!.....They simply follow tradition!!
What percentage of pilots who after getting lost and using 121.50 had done a practice previously?
What percentage of pilots requesting a "training fix" or "practice" pan are actually lost?
Stop practice calls. Visit D+D insted. Then students can be briefed by a person who knows exactly what the service can and can't do as well as seeing the system in operation...........not a flight instructor who only knows what their instructor told them.
Regards,
DFC
Moderator
Joined: Jul 1997
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 3,231
Likes: 21
From: Europe
121.5 should be for genuine Emergency use only, forget all this .....practice......crap. If its deemed so important, give them a practice frequency.
The 'little guys' ain't the problem really .... the professional industry needs to look in its own backyard first and tackle its own thorny issue before it starts pontificating.
PPRuNe Person
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,273
Likes: 13
From: see roster
So how do we tackle the 75% of wasted air time made by commercial pilots then ??
Think..formulate..speak!
Read back only what is required. Don't use un-necessary words.
eg "the speedpig/midbird etc" - pompous, not required
"radar heading" -what's wrong with "heading"
etc
PP Radar: some of your colleagues favour the verbose, incorrect & ugly "make your heading a radar heading" instead of the shorter & correct "maintain present heading" so ATC are sometimes their own worst enemies!
ATB
Moderator
Joined: Jul 1997
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 3,231
Likes: 21
From: Europe
overstress
Listen out
We're talking about the use of 121.5 for practice calls, etc,
It's all in the FODCOM in the link on post 1
Day to day operational RT use is a different kettle of fish.
Listen out
We're talking about the use of 121.5 for practice calls, etc,
It's all in the FODCOM in the link on post 1
Day to day operational RT use is a different kettle of fish.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,018
Likes: 73
From: Pewsey, UK
So let me see - airline pilots complain when GA pilots use 121.5 for practice (among other uses). I bet they also complain when they're re-vectored because some low-time PPL has blundered into the controlled airspace they're just about to occupy. Which would you rather ? Or should we train PPL to ATPL standard coz then they wouldn't make nav mistakes, would they ? 
80 calls a month = just short of 3 a day, for a minute. And prior to appearing on 121.5, the instructor with the stude will have asked London Info if it's ok to make the practice call.
My lowly opinion, FWIW - live with it.
80 calls a month = just short of 3 a day, for a minute. And prior to appearing on 121.5, the instructor with the stude will have asked London Info if it's ok to make the practice call.
My lowly opinion, FWIW - live with it.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
From: Bit nosey aren't you
Its valid training for the student pilots and the controllers alike. Many eons ago when I was learning to fly in a JP, it was incredibly comforting to have some one available to help you out and avoid blundering into shark infested custard (controlled airspace). For gods sake, I could have got lost for about 3 months in my back garden.
I know of guys that are afraid to do a PA; let alone talk to someone in an emergency. Guess what, a training fix could actually be a swiss cheese stiopper. For those and the other tyros out there have some humility and remember we all had to start somewhere.
Oh, and you can get the footy scores on HF.
Ghost
I know of guys that are afraid to do a PA; let alone talk to someone in an emergency. Guess what, a training fix could actually be a swiss cheese stiopper. For those and the other tyros out there have some humility and remember we all had to start somewhere.
Oh, and you can get the footy scores on HF.
Ghost
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
From: Varies!
Flying for a major carrier in the Gulf, the monitoring of this frequency is a requirment for not only D&D but to save our own ass should we happen to stray off course and end up being 'threatened' by some nervous warship in the area. If the Iranian Airbus had done the same, almost 300 people would still be around today.
This frequency should be used for the purpose for which it was intended.
Use it, DON'T abuse it. Save the chat for 123.45!
This frequency should be used for the purpose for which it was intended.
Use it, DON'T abuse it. Save the chat for 123.45!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: SE Asia
Where the Problem Lies
Before I start I want to say I am not a pilot of any description...Surely the message of the report here is very clear. The problem with 121.5 is NOT training for GA pilot it IS misuse by commercial pilots (whether by accident or not is immaterial). I assume these results are good for the UK only. However I would suggest that once the commercial guys have got their misuse sorted they can start having a go at the 1% misuse (or genuinely useful) use that is GA practise calling . Ask yourselves gentlemen and ladies is it the 3 minutes of day of GA practise that causes you to turn the frequency down or the finger trouble of your colleagues?
Guest
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In the 12 years I have held a PPL, I have used the training fix facility once.
At the time, I was very low houred and couldn't establish a precise visual fix in haze over featureless terrain near controlled airspace near Stansted.
30 seconds later, my position was confirmed, allowing me to make sure that I avoided a transgression that could have caused airline flights to be sent around and/or held.
It also helped me to learn safely about one of the pitfall of visual navigation and I took a couple of lessons in beacon tracking (this being before reliable GPS was available as a backup.)
IMHO the service is worth its weight in gold, a position the CAA seem to share.
At the time, I was very low houred and couldn't establish a precise visual fix in haze over featureless terrain near controlled airspace near Stansted.
30 seconds later, my position was confirmed, allowing me to make sure that I avoided a transgression that could have caused airline flights to be sent around and/or held.
It also helped me to learn safely about one of the pitfall of visual navigation and I took a couple of lessons in beacon tracking (this being before reliable GPS was available as a backup.)
IMHO the service is worth its weight in gold, a position the CAA seem to share.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 88
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From: in the western part of the United State of Europe
Last week I happened to pass the UK on a Saturdaymorning.
After listening to all this "you are now 5NM east of xxx" for over 15 minutes I actually had to turn down the volume.
In Holland I used to make use of "Dutch Mil" when flying SE.
No need to occupy the 121.5
There are hardly no intentional calls from Professional pilots on guard. And yes, sometimes you make a mistake. But that is already contaminating the frequeny enough.
btw what do the Spanish pilots mean when they yell "auwa" the whole bloody time on 121.5 ?
After listening to all this "you are now 5NM east of xxx" for over 15 minutes I actually had to turn down the volume.
In Holland I used to make use of "Dutch Mil" when flying SE.
No need to occupy the 121.5
There are hardly no intentional calls from Professional pilots on guard. And yes, sometimes you make a mistake. But that is already contaminating the frequeny enough.
btw what do the Spanish pilots mean when they yell "auwa" the whole bloody time on 121.5 ?