How will flight be powered when fossil fuel runs out?
Paxing All Over The World
A question very early in this thread about cars:
The answer is that power outlets for block heaters are available in the car parks.
On a recent trip to Norway, we were driven from OSL by friends of friends to a small village in the mountains about 300Km North of Oslo. Upon arrival, the temperature was -27C and the car was to be parked outside. But it's engine block heater was immediately plugged into one of the numerous outlets in the public car park. Those Scandanavians know a thing or two!
All E85 cars have block heaters to prewarm the engine, but what do you do in the car park?
On a recent trip to Norway, we were driven from OSL by friends of friends to a small village in the mountains about 300Km North of Oslo. Upon arrival, the temperature was -27C and the car was to be parked outside. But it's engine block heater was immediately plugged into one of the numerous outlets in the public car park. Those Scandanavians know a thing or two!
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Ion Drives...
There was a show on discovery a couple of weeks ago regarding alternative methods to run engines and new science. There was a NASA scientist who argued that the ion drives used in space should work inside the atmosphere as well but that was about the only thing they said about it.
Does anyone know anything more about this?
There was also some type of shield of ionized air or something similar (dont remember to well the details). This shield would decreased drag by a huge factor and in that way decrease fuel consumption by a very huge factor. This had in fact already been tested at a NASA JPL lab...
Does anyone know anything more about this?
There was also some type of shield of ionized air or something similar (dont remember to well the details). This shield would decreased drag by a huge factor and in that way decrease fuel consumption by a very huge factor. This had in fact already been tested at a NASA JPL lab...
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Originally Posted by PAXboy
But it's engine block heater was immediately plugged into one of the numerous outlets in the public car park.
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Originally Posted by Best foot forward
i understand that a jet engine will run on pretty much anything that will burn its just a question of getting the fuel air mix right.
Top Gear the other day, might have been a rerun but they had a car running on methane that was compressed and into a CNG tank on an old rover. Looked like it ran ok.
Top Gear the other day, might have been a rerun but they had a car running on methane that was compressed and into a CNG tank on an old rover. Looked like it ran ok.
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Originally Posted by Swedish Steve
I live just north of Stockholm. There are no public outlets anywhere. In the car park at work there are a few outlets which can be rented, but most do not have access. Last week it was M15 most nights. An present day E85 Ford Focus will not start.
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Having spent several years living in South Africa, I believe that under the old Apartheid Government that the process of producing petrol from coal was perfected at Sasol, so they could beat sanctions.
Not being a chemist I don't know too much about it and whether it is possible to produce suitable quality synethic Jet A fuel in this way. But seen as coal reserves are far greater than oil reserves it might be the way to go.
Not being a chemist I don't know too much about it and whether it is possible to produce suitable quality synethic Jet A fuel in this way. But seen as coal reserves are far greater than oil reserves it might be the way to go.
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Correct, George Tower, and the South Africans were merely refining (sorry!) a process developed by the Germans in WW2. Bottom line is, there's no shortage of oil - but we may well be running out of cheap oil. When that happens, two changes will occur:
1. We will stop using oil for really stupid purposes (unnecessary packaging, powering Range Rovers, ...), much of which happens only because oil is so cheap. Maybe we'll have to pay more than a quid for a flight to the Med.
2. Vast reserves of oil (far more than the total amount extracted to date)that are currently uneconomic to exploit will become available.
As Sheikh Yamani (who knows a thing or two about oil production) put it "the stone age did not come to an end for lack of stones".
1. We will stop using oil for really stupid purposes (unnecessary packaging, powering Range Rovers, ...), much of which happens only because oil is so cheap. Maybe we'll have to pay more than a quid for a flight to the Med.
2. Vast reserves of oil (far more than the total amount extracted to date)that are currently uneconomic to exploit will become available.
As Sheikh Yamani (who knows a thing or two about oil production) put it "the stone age did not come to an end for lack of stones".
Psychophysiological entity
Describing possible ways to get alternative fuel always amuses me. Just look at the world consumption, and then imagine what it would take to produce a tenth of that figure.
Daedalus. You almost perfectly describe the system that I envisaged many years ago. I did mention it in a post a while back but can't find it quickly.
There were two main problems to it being developed by a small company. One is that it will happen, but the big boys will take it with $millions to fend off patent lawsuits. Dyson had a tough time and won, but coming up against GM is something else.
The other is the high voltages that initial calculations show to be needed. 200 min- 400 optimum and true sinusoidal AC is about the mark. DC chopper circuits would be almost impossible to suppress--radio wise–at those currents. All very iffy round civilians. Difficult but a perfect system to be fed by electricity direct, or from the ancillary engine-generator. Traction control would be a simple matter of software, and braking would be largely electric at higher speeds.
Train type diesel engine generators are of course very good engineering. But the cost, even in miniature. Back to the Hybrid.
Hydrocarbons need to be kept for important manufacturing processes and aviation. Cars are simply wasting a non recoverable resource at an horrific rate. Has anyone ever calculated how much fuel has been used in total...and then described it as a cube?
Daedalus. You almost perfectly describe the system that I envisaged many years ago. I did mention it in a post a while back but can't find it quickly.
There were two main problems to it being developed by a small company. One is that it will happen, but the big boys will take it with $millions to fend off patent lawsuits. Dyson had a tough time and won, but coming up against GM is something else.
The other is the high voltages that initial calculations show to be needed. 200 min- 400 optimum and true sinusoidal AC is about the mark. DC chopper circuits would be almost impossible to suppress--radio wise–at those currents. All very iffy round civilians. Difficult but a perfect system to be fed by electricity direct, or from the ancillary engine-generator. Traction control would be a simple matter of software, and braking would be largely electric at higher speeds.
Train type diesel engine generators are of course very good engineering. But the cost, even in miniature. Back to the Hybrid.
Hydrocarbons need to be kept for important manufacturing processes and aviation. Cars are simply wasting a non recoverable resource at an horrific rate. Has anyone ever calculated how much fuel has been used in total...and then described it as a cube?
Nobody has mentioned coal (except once in passing as a joke). The state of Utah alone has one trillion tons in accessible coal reserves. Of course coal-fired aeroplanes are a bit unlikely, but fuels are fungible. For aviation purposes, it would be possible to synthesise oil using coal as the energy source. Wouldn't make much sense for the Range Rover but cars are a much less demanding environment - ethanol is just fine for them (maybe biodiesel too).
n5296s
n5296s
Psychophysiological entity
It's still a matter of the mind boggling quantities. Every ounce that we could squeeze out of all the other sources put together, wouldn't provide a tenth of our current needs.
Ignoring some of the more exotic fuels used in highly tuned engines, you can't carry anything like the same energy to an aircraft or a work-site for instance, as with gas / petrol. It is unparalleled portable power.
Since the last coal mining tragedy, it has been stated several times on T/V here, that America is feeding half its fuel needs for generating electricity with coal. In the US all the homes that don't have to be heated, seem to need to be cooled. Some do both at once to pull the humidity down. Countless thousands of homes pump the heat out for 80% of the year. It's done in one of the most wasteful ways imaginable. Given that the electrical demands are getting bigger at a frightening rate, I think coal is more or less spoken for.
Remaining in total denial about tomorrow's energy needs...and the urgent need to economize, is perhaps one of man's greatest follies to date.
Ignoring some of the more exotic fuels used in highly tuned engines, you can't carry anything like the same energy to an aircraft or a work-site for instance, as with gas / petrol. It is unparalleled portable power.
Since the last coal mining tragedy, it has been stated several times on T/V here, that America is feeding half its fuel needs for generating electricity with coal. In the US all the homes that don't have to be heated, seem to need to be cooled. Some do both at once to pull the humidity down. Countless thousands of homes pump the heat out for 80% of the year. It's done in one of the most wasteful ways imaginable. Given that the electrical demands are getting bigger at a frightening rate, I think coal is more or less spoken for.
Remaining in total denial about tomorrow's energy needs...and the urgent need to economize, is perhaps one of man's greatest follies to date.
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Going back to an earlier post, would the presence of water in ethanol fuel matter as much as it does today? Surely if the water is completely miscible, then you wouldn't get the blockage problems that can occur today (where water doesn't mix with the fuel and remains separate) - perhaps that would stop it burning so efficiently, but as long as the ethanol remains over 100% proof (~50% by volume) then I can't see a problem.
As far as running a jet on it, I don't know, but as is said before, there is no shortage of oil, just a shortage of crude (which has to go through several processes before it is useable in any form of engine, so refining coal/shale oil/tar sands into oil is not such a far fetched principle)
As far as running a jet on it, I don't know, but as is said before, there is no shortage of oil, just a shortage of crude (which has to go through several processes before it is useable in any form of engine, so refining coal/shale oil/tar sands into oil is not such a far fetched principle)
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Just look at the world consumption, and then imagine what it would take to produce a tenth of that figure.
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Personally, I recon that Bio-mass fuels will be the answer. To be efficient, aircraft fuel has to have a high calorific value per kilo. Oilseed rape and sunflowers are the two which may offer a solution in the short term. However, until our politicians structure taxation policies that reward long term investment we'll just carry on burning until the oil runs out. But there again, maybe we could burn politicians (and lawyers while were are at it)? They appear to be capable of emitting vast amounts of hot air when heated up.
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99.99% accuracy.. OUCH..What essential item(s) could I lose along the way ?
Having been involved here and there with oil and gas exploration projects I have to tell all you Voices of DOOM that oil and its derivitives will be around a lot longer than you think and well beyond the lifetime of anyone alive today...what will be the deciding factor will be cost...Oil is not sitting under the ground in large natural buckets... we have oodles of the stuff in places you haven't dreamt of and only the cost and limited technology prevents us from extracting it...research is ongoing to reduce the costs of getting it into your tank and as each dollar is added to the price of a barrel then so many more sources are worth exploiting...As for the answer to the originaal Q...sorry...I haven't a clue.
Having been involved here and there with oil and gas exploration projects I have to tell all you Voices of DOOM that oil and its derivitives will be around a lot longer than you think and well beyond the lifetime of anyone alive today...what will be the deciding factor will be cost...Oil is not sitting under the ground in large natural buckets... we have oodles of the stuff in places you haven't dreamt of and only the cost and limited technology prevents us from extracting it...research is ongoing to reduce the costs of getting it into your tank and as each dollar is added to the price of a barrel then so many more sources are worth exploiting...As for the answer to the originaal Q...sorry...I haven't a clue.
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Nuclear powered airplanes sound like fun. The US had quite a big programme going - mostly because the Air Force didn't fancy the Navy being the only ones with reactors, but also because of reports that the Soviets were developing something similar. There were two basic designs of engine evaluated, one that just pushed air through the reactor core and one that had a liquid metal heat interchanger. The first was simple, light and spewed enormous amounts of contamination: the second was complex and too heavy to lift itself (and that's before the shielding necessary to stop the crew from glowing). There was even a specialist squad of Marines created to clean up after a crash: I think they called themselves the "Glow In The Dark Boys", but
to me that's just one more reason why joining the Marine Corps would be a bad mistake.
In the end, the Americans found that the Soviets weren't developing anything of the sort and admitted that the darn thing would never fly.
Only the Soviets were - and flew it. They solved the problem of having vast amounts of shielding for the pilots by just not bothering, which saw most of them off in short order.
There's talk of nuclear powered UAVs now, but I can't see the benefits being worth the downside.
R
to me that's just one more reason why joining the Marine Corps would be a bad mistake.
In the end, the Americans found that the Soviets weren't developing anything of the sort and admitted that the darn thing would never fly.
Only the Soviets were - and flew it. They solved the problem of having vast amounts of shielding for the pilots by just not bothering, which saw most of them off in short order.
There's talk of nuclear powered UAVs now, but I can't see the benefits being worth the downside.
R
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I can't help thinking at times that we are being conned into believing that the world is RAPIDLY running out of fossil fuel - I'm not saying that it isn't a finite resource - but some time back I was involved in a high level Defence/Oil industry exercise in a Western nation where an oil executive in a commercially/defence sensitive briefing indicated that known reserves at that time were enough to last that country at that rate of usage for approximately 400 years. Since then it is widely known that that country has tapped/capped much more good quality oil.
Further I find it hard to believe that mankind, amongst all his technical achievements, can't throw together a few carbon/hydrogen/oxygen atoms and synthesise the stuff.
If the doomsayers are saying that we've got 20 years left and they are right then there is no where near enough work being put into replacement fuels - the world as we know it will grind to a halt and chaos will reign. Personally I cannot envisage this scenario!
GAGS
E86
Further I find it hard to believe that mankind, amongst all his technical achievements, can't throw together a few carbon/hydrogen/oxygen atoms and synthesise the stuff.
If the doomsayers are saying that we've got 20 years left and they are right then there is no where near enough work being put into replacement fuels - the world as we know it will grind to a halt and chaos will reign. Personally I cannot envisage this scenario!
GAGS
E86
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To mention some alternative fuel projects, Tu-155 - a liquid hydrogen-powered version of Russian Tu-154 - was flight-tested as early as 1988. Mi-8TG, a Russian helicopter converted to LPG, was ready for mass production, but never made it for lack of orders. In Brazil, where alcohol has been used as car fuel for quite some time, they are testing it now as aircraft fuel. And of course, hemp or rape oil can be converted into diesel or turbine fuel; some testing has been done but there's a lot more to do...
Originally Posted by eagle 86
I can't help thinking at times that we are being conned into believing that the world is RAPIDLY running out of fossil fuel - I'm not saying that it isn't a finite resource - but some time back I was involved in a high level Defence/Oil industry exercise in a Western nation where an oil executive in a commercially/defence sensitive briefing indicated that known reserves at that time were enough to last that country at that rate of usage for approximately 400 years. Since then it is widely known that that country has tapped/capped much more good quality oil.
Further I find it hard to believe that mankind, amongst all his technical achievements, can't throw together a few carbon/hydrogen/oxygen atoms and synthesise the stuff.
If the doomsayers are saying that we've got 20 years left and they are right then there is no where near enough work being put into replacement fuels - the world as we know it will grind to a halt and chaos will reign. Personally I cannot envisage this scenario!
GAGS
E86
Further I find it hard to believe that mankind, amongst all his technical achievements, can't throw together a few carbon/hydrogen/oxygen atoms and synthesise the stuff.
If the doomsayers are saying that we've got 20 years left and they are right then there is no where near enough work being put into replacement fuels - the world as we know it will grind to a halt and chaos will reign. Personally I cannot envisage this scenario!
GAGS
E86
With regard to alternatives discussed to liquid hydrocarbons, I'll just go and do up my seat belt on that plane now, as the chicken entrails indicate we are in the vicinity of the peak, where we will find out if the geologists such as CAmpbell and Co are right with their concerns, or the economists from MIT are correct in the assertion that supply will be developed in the face of serious demand.
Ethanol is workable but the corrosion issues need to be ironed out, and right now, not tomorrow please...
GTL is not a solution if based on gas deposits, if peak oil is going to be fun, wait for winters with peak gas, coming to your part of the world soon...
GTL from reformed coal feedstock is viable, and proven technology Fischer-Tropsch, SASOL (3 versions) and results in clean fuels up to C10's, but needs viable sequestration of CO2 to be acceptable unless catatrophic shortages occur...hmmm. Again better get in quick, ramp up takes time, and look at the rate of supply decay that occurs even with new field commencements.
For the last 20 years, we have use 6 barrels for each new one found.
current demand equates to the use of 400 years of biomass each year, assuming perfect conversion of the global biomass to oil...
Either we get this right, or we are going to be living in a really exciting time, as it is unlikely that many of the rocks population are going to volunteer to vacate.
Hope lots that it is a big beatup, and that the answers are sitting in cabinets, gathering dust, awaiting the right time for salvation of hydrocarbon man.
Now I do however hanker for PBMR/AVR GCR's using lots of Thorium
. Low risk, high efficiency, and long term storage, proliferation not an issue. Now we are talking...possibly why the Chinese have what would amount to an emergency program developing same, proposing adding same electrical capacity as global 2002 in the next 25 years
.Must off now, got an SUV to fill up...
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quick dive in then gotta go
If someone has not suggested it try
The Future of the Hydrogen Economy: Bright or Bleak?
Ulf Bossel
Baldur Eliasson
Gordon Taylor
A little dated (3yr old) but pretty good.
The Future of the Hydrogen Economy: Bright or Bleak?
Ulf Bossel
Baldur Eliasson
Gordon Taylor
A little dated (3yr old) but pretty good.