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Old 11th Oct 2005, 21:34
  #154 (permalink)  
RAT 5
 
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"A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots if you know what to do and act quickly. I don't of course recommend such a procedure on a regular basis but you must know what to do when you find yourself in such a position."

This thread has drifted away from the original title, and has now entered a more technical phase. (I'm sure the FR bashing has blown itself out, thankfully.)
I would thus like to respond to the above, and a couple of later points made by Ranamin.

"...but you must know what to do when ....."

Rule number 1. DO NOT get yourself in this position, NOR ALLOW yourself to be sucked into it by outside influences. God forbid ATC would do it to you. There in lies the skill; keeping away from such 'positions"!!!

Regarding the other points. I can agree that some piloting skills have been eroded in recent years, but in many airlines manual handling is encouraged when & where appropriate. (Deciding those parameters is also a skill, and with a SID at 3000' in London TMA on a stormy night is not a good idea). In the past (not necessarily good old days) the skills you mentioned were quite often required. That was because the a/c were very unsophisticated and the ATC infra-structure also. A B737-200 with only 1 DME and a 60's basic A/P & no A/T was a good learning machine around the Greek islands on a dark s$%ty night. You had to do it, and we were taught to do it 'on site'.
When I graduated onto the wizz bang glass cockpit & 80's autopilot, life became more relaxed, but you could always switch it off. However, the skill requirement changed slightly. If I ever offered the F/O the chance to follow suit, some tried and enjoyed it, others declined and missed the fun.
However, when I was doing conversion training, in the sim, I always tried to find time to cover the very manoeuvres you mentioned in a) - f).
A) B) D) & E) can be shown on the a/c, and I often still encourage them. The others are best left to the sim, but there is precious little time for anything extra there.

I still believe that in todays modern enviroment of higher tech a/c and infrastructure, it is best to learn how to avoid some of these areas, than to dilute, (by thinking you get away with it), the good self preserving prickly back of the neck hairs feeling that has saved many of us.

By the way: The demonstrated figure for 300 -210 kts + speed brake is 7nm. A further 3nm to get to gear down F15 would leave you at 1800' over the threshold. I suppose you could throw the gear out at 250kts and do a 1:1 descent at F40. It might work, but HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you really done this, and if so, how did you get yourself into that position? You say it is not recommended on a regular basis. I would go further and say NEVER. (Surely you didn't spend time in the sim trying this crazy stunt? and if you did, WHY?)

Last edited by RAT 5; 12th Oct 2005 at 14:07.
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