Oh no, its "Practice pan, Practice pan" time again!!
Guest
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Yes the Brits. are a pain in the ear with this archaic practice of practising on 121.5.
There are numerous reasons for pilots to tune VHF2 to 121.5 for silent monitoring aside from a possible "mayday relay" or notification of ELB signals, including having a second common frequency to allow ATC or other aircraft to contact you on to provide timely notification of an unnoticed failure of VHF1 or mistuning of com. frequencies.
Manys the time in busy European airspace l've heard ATC chase up and locate an aircraft on 121.5 that had missed or misset a frequency transfer.
The rest of the world seems to be able to train and nurture perfectly safe and competant pilots without this need to continuously practise on 121.5 so whats wrong with the UK.
There are numerous reasons for pilots to tune VHF2 to 121.5 for silent monitoring aside from a possible "mayday relay" or notification of ELB signals, including having a second common frequency to allow ATC or other aircraft to contact you on to provide timely notification of an unnoticed failure of VHF1 or mistuning of com. frequencies.
Manys the time in busy European airspace l've heard ATC chase up and locate an aircraft on 121.5 that had missed or misset a frequency transfer.
The rest of the world seems to be able to train and nurture perfectly safe and competant pilots without this need to continuously practise on 121.5 so whats wrong with the UK.
Guest
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I have made one "Practise Pan" call whilst with an Instructor when I was training for my PPL.I was very impressed with the accuracy of the D and D controller.It certainly helped my confidence should it all go wrong that there is help available out there.
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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
Guest
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Aiming point - a very well made point. Of course, the US never clog up 121.5 with anything other than genuine emergencies, do they?
Oh. Hold on. What about ELT's? Oh dear, that's blown that argument.
But of course, unintentional ELT activation is far less likely to cause un-warranted SAR activity than an RT call preceeded by >>>>>>PRACICE<<<<<<&l t; PAN, >>>>>>>>PRACTICE<<<<< <<< PAN, isn't it?
Oh. Hold on. What about ELT's? Oh dear, that's blown that argument.
But of course, unintentional ELT activation is far less likely to cause un-warranted SAR activity than an RT call preceeded by >>>>>>PRACICE<<<<<<&l t; PAN, >>>>>>>>PRACTICE<<<<< <<< PAN, isn't it?
Guest
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Yes, one is an accidental pain in the ear that can carry on for hours on end, and totally jam the frequency, and does no good for anybody.
The other is an intentional pain in the ear that familiarises studes with the procedure, encourages them to use the facilities at their disposal, helps controllers stay current with the RT/phone/liaison and triangulation procedures, and can be cancelled at any time that the frequency is required for an emergency.
OK, some "hot shot" pilots dislike students impinging on their nice comfortable worlds, would prefer to forget that they were once studes whose RT was slow, hesitant and unsure, and would prefer them to be neither seen nor heard.
It is generally considered that the British system produces the highest standards in the world. Having seen standards in many other parts of the world, this is certainly my view as well. How far would you like standards and safety margins here to be degraded?
Those who dislike having to listen - you don't have to. Stop whingeing, have a bit of sympathy for the tyros and trainees and get a life.
The other is an intentional pain in the ear that familiarises studes with the procedure, encourages them to use the facilities at their disposal, helps controllers stay current with the RT/phone/liaison and triangulation procedures, and can be cancelled at any time that the frequency is required for an emergency.
OK, some "hot shot" pilots dislike students impinging on their nice comfortable worlds, would prefer to forget that they were once studes whose RT was slow, hesitant and unsure, and would prefer them to be neither seen nor heard.
It is generally considered that the British system produces the highest standards in the world. Having seen standards in many other parts of the world, this is certainly my view as well. How far would you like standards and safety margins here to be degraded?
Those who dislike having to listen - you don't have to. Stop whingeing, have a bit of sympathy for the tyros and trainees and get a life.
Guest
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Sorry Hugmonster, I totally disagree with you.
This has nothing to do with “Hot shot pilots” ! We’re just trying to keep the emergency frequencies quiet as long as possible !!
Both emergency frequencies are misused for practice pans by the military and civilians in the U.K.
I’ll repeat my question: Why can’t you do this practice- which is a very good practice for a student - on a “normal” Atc frequency (which is not too busy) ??
Also it sounds quite arrogant if you talk about the “British system” which produces the highest standards in the world. Get alive !!
This has nothing to do with “Hot shot pilots” ! We’re just trying to keep the emergency frequencies quiet as long as possible !!
Both emergency frequencies are misused for practice pans by the military and civilians in the U.K.
I’ll repeat my question: Why can’t you do this practice- which is a very good practice for a student - on a “normal” Atc frequency (which is not too busy) ??
Also it sounds quite arrogant if you talk about the “British system” which produces the highest standards in the world. Get alive !!
Guest
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Listen up.
PPL's lives have been lost by hesitancy to use 121.5
I have witnessed D&D cell - with me acting as Shepherd - save a light aircraft from certain death.
Therefore ANYTHING that dis-inhibits an early call to 121.5 is NECESSARY in my book.
The argument about a practice frequency is totally spurious. It defeats the ENTIRE point. Which is to use the real live thing and find out that it doesn't bite and you won't be arrested for using it.
For various pyschological reasons a pratice only frequency would not be fulfill the requirement.
WWW
ps its our airspace, our r/t policy and we WON'T take any help from the US in this respect.
pps D&D controllers are happy with the status quo, as are the PPL holders, as are the flying instructors, as are the CAA. Seems to me the only whiners are having their coffee chat distrurbed by a long promulagated flight safety training activity...
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 21 April 2001).]
PPL's lives have been lost by hesitancy to use 121.5
I have witnessed D&D cell - with me acting as Shepherd - save a light aircraft from certain death.
Therefore ANYTHING that dis-inhibits an early call to 121.5 is NECESSARY in my book.
The argument about a practice frequency is totally spurious. It defeats the ENTIRE point. Which is to use the real live thing and find out that it doesn't bite and you won't be arrested for using it.
For various pyschological reasons a pratice only frequency would not be fulfill the requirement.
WWW
ps its our airspace, our r/t policy and we WON'T take any help from the US in this respect.
pps D&D controllers are happy with the status quo, as are the PPL holders, as are the flying instructors, as are the CAA. Seems to me the only whiners are having their coffee chat distrurbed by a long promulagated flight safety training activity...
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 21 April 2001).]
Guest
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Hi WWW,
Say do you lads OWN the 121,5 and 243,0 ??? because in your post that seems to be what you’re telling us.
So if we overfly the isles should we switch guard frequencies off ? so you can practice on them.
“Seems to me the only whiners are having their coffee chat disturbed by a long promulagated flight safety training activity... “
You totally miss our points, this issue is about making flying safer, keeping guard frequencies open all the time, not about coffee chat.
Slam_dunk
Say do you lads OWN the 121,5 and 243,0 ??? because in your post that seems to be what you’re telling us.
So if we overfly the isles should we switch guard frequencies off ? so you can practice on them.
“Seems to me the only whiners are having their coffee chat disturbed by a long promulagated flight safety training activity... “
You totally miss our points, this issue is about making flying safer, keeping guard frequencies open all the time, not about coffee chat.
Slam_dunk
Guest
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slamdunk, it is you who miss the point.
[list=a][*]121.5 is the only frequency on which ATC can triangulate an aircraft's position[*]ATC welcome the practice in use of the service[*]Yes, the Radio and Telcommunications Agency in the UK "owns" the frequency within UK national borders[*]If you're a foreign visitor to our skies, are you likely to be able to assist with a lost PPL if you don't know whether you're near Maidenhead or Maidstone? Dungeness or Dungeon Ghyll?[*]If a genuine emergency occurs, you can cancel a Practice Pan under way[*]All the evidence is that allowing Practice Pan calls on 121.5 aids in safety, rather than endangering it[*]If you are a visitor to our skies, what entitles you to tell us what we permit?[*]Yes, it may sound arrogant, but I have flown in every continent of the world except Antarctica, and in a huge range of countries. And I still maintain that a UK flying qualification is as good as, or better than any other.[/list=a]
If you don't like what goes on on 121.5, yes, you can always turn it off, or just turn it down temporarily. This is unlikely in the extreme to be a contributory cause of any accident.
[list=a][*]121.5 is the only frequency on which ATC can triangulate an aircraft's position[*]ATC welcome the practice in use of the service[*]Yes, the Radio and Telcommunications Agency in the UK "owns" the frequency within UK national borders[*]If you're a foreign visitor to our skies, are you likely to be able to assist with a lost PPL if you don't know whether you're near Maidenhead or Maidstone? Dungeness or Dungeon Ghyll?[*]If a genuine emergency occurs, you can cancel a Practice Pan under way[*]All the evidence is that allowing Practice Pan calls on 121.5 aids in safety, rather than endangering it[*]If you are a visitor to our skies, what entitles you to tell us what we permit?[*]Yes, it may sound arrogant, but I have flown in every continent of the world except Antarctica, and in a huge range of countries. And I still maintain that a UK flying qualification is as good as, or better than any other.[/list=a]
If you don't like what goes on on 121.5, yes, you can always turn it off, or just turn it down temporarily. This is unlikely in the extreme to be a contributory cause of any accident.
Guest
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Hug and WWW,
Transmissions within UK airspace do NOT stop when they hit the border.
This is NOT a US vs UK discussion, the world has other parts as well.
Those UK aviators who are incapable of using a service when it's needed, should be GROUNDED. They do NOT display English SUPERIORITY the way it should be done.
Emergencies are NOT limited to PPL drivers.
Evidence, Hug? Go ahead, the floor is yours!
And yes, your right, I did not observe the 10 minute cooldown period between reading and posting.
Transmissions within UK airspace do NOT stop when they hit the border.
This is NOT a US vs UK discussion, the world has other parts as well.
Those UK aviators who are incapable of using a service when it's needed, should be GROUNDED. They do NOT display English SUPERIORITY the way it should be done.
Emergencies are NOT limited to PPL drivers.
Evidence, Hug? Go ahead, the floor is yours!
And yes, your right, I did not observe the 10 minute cooldown period between reading and posting.
Guest
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Transmissions within UK airspace do NOT stop when they hit the border.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">This is NOT a US vs UK discussion, the world has other parts as well.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Those UK aviators who are incapable of using a service when it's needed, should be GROUNDED.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Emergencies are NOT limited to PPL drivers.</font>
As far as I can see, your post bears no relevance whatsoever to the issue under discussion, and totally fails to understand the issues involved.
Guest
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HugMonster,
Quote No1: You may own the frequencys within UK, but you can't stop transmissions from polluting far outside your airspace. Is this difficult to understand?
Quote No2: This was a response to WWW's post.
Quote No3: Applies to all of you. As you are the best in the world, this practice should not be necessary. Unless, of course, you mean the "Practice Pan" bit is what sets you apart from the rest of us. I firmly belive British pilots (coffee drinking types and wannabes alike) to be levelheaded and quite capable of using a facility when it's needed, without being spoonfed the procedure.
Now, as for the evidence part, do you care to produce some?
Quote No1: You may own the frequencys within UK, but you can't stop transmissions from polluting far outside your airspace. Is this difficult to understand?
Quote No2: This was a response to WWW's post.
Quote No3: Applies to all of you. As you are the best in the world, this practice should not be necessary. Unless, of course, you mean the "Practice Pan" bit is what sets you apart from the rest of us. I firmly belive British pilots (coffee drinking types and wannabes alike) to be levelheaded and quite capable of using a facility when it's needed, without being spoonfed the procedure.
Now, as for the evidence part, do you care to produce some?
Guest
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Scando, this is in danger of becoming ridiculous.
What makes the general standard of aviation in the UK so high is the level of the training, not some innate quality of the pilots. As for your ridiculous assertion that students should all be grounded because they are not up to scratch, well, it's plain to see that you've never been an instructor.
The simple facts of the matter are that:-[list][*]"Practice Pan" calls do not block the frequency for genuine emergencies[*]"Practice Pan" calls would be inappropriate on frequencies other than 121.5 since
[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 22 April 2001).]
What makes the general standard of aviation in the UK so high is the level of the training, not some innate quality of the pilots. As for your ridiculous assertion that students should all be grounded because they are not up to scratch, well, it's plain to see that you've never been an instructor.
The simple facts of the matter are that:-[list][*]"Practice Pan" calls do not block the frequency for genuine emergencies[*]"Practice Pan" calls would be inappropriate on frequencies other than 121.5 since
- They would jam up a "working" traffic frequency
- It would be pointless from ATC's view since they would not get to practice their procedures
- Commercial aircraft failing to listen out on 121.5 has contributed to any accident
- "Practice Pan" calls ever "blocked" the frequency for a genuine emergency.
[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 22 April 2001).]
Guest
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Hug,
Your opening statement is quite correct.
Now, when you say: "All the evidence is that allowing Practice Pan calls on 121.5 aids in safety, rather than endangering it", I trust you have some documentation to back this up.
As for: "The only opposition to "Practice Pan" calls that I have seen on this thread comes from pilots who listen out and don't like hearing these calls." I think you should reread the whole tread. It's about safety, it's about SOP, it's about keeping the frequency open for genuine users as it's done in most other countries. It's not about hating students, stuttering, or feeling superior (well, except for one who keep pointing out the fact that Britain Rules The World, aviationwise).
You are, or have been an instructor? You are correct in assuming I'm not. You are in possesion of knowledge I do not have, I grant you that much. In fact, you have now convinced me British students will rather crash and burn, than dial 121.5, ask for a fix and vectors for the nearest airfield. They need to be trained in this very complicated procedure.
Thank you!
Scando
Your opening statement is quite correct.
Now, when you say: "All the evidence is that allowing Practice Pan calls on 121.5 aids in safety, rather than endangering it", I trust you have some documentation to back this up.
As for: "The only opposition to "Practice Pan" calls that I have seen on this thread comes from pilots who listen out and don't like hearing these calls." I think you should reread the whole tread. It's about safety, it's about SOP, it's about keeping the frequency open for genuine users as it's done in most other countries. It's not about hating students, stuttering, or feeling superior (well, except for one who keep pointing out the fact that Britain Rules The World, aviationwise).
You are, or have been an instructor? You are correct in assuming I'm not. You are in possesion of knowledge I do not have, I grant you that much. In fact, you have now convinced me British students will rather crash and burn, than dial 121.5, ask for a fix and vectors for the nearest airfield. They need to be trained in this very complicated procedure.
Thank you!
Scando
Guest
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Scando,
Well said !!!
Hugmonster,
Can you please stop assuming that the reason we "complain" about this practice is that
"we don't like hearing these practices". the only reason is : to keep the frequency quiet all the time, otherwise people switch it off or turn it down !!
Furthermore as pointed out earlier in this thread :
a. Students CAN do their practices on a "normal" not too busy freq.
b. you CAN get a QDM/QDR on a "normal" freq.
c. ATC still gets it's practice.
As a matter of fact I flew with a collegue who told me he was saved once by listening out on 121,5 while ATC was calling him on that frequency.
If there's a button on the wall to call the firebrigade in case of a fire, do we all need to train our students by instructing them to press the button ? Or can we just tell them : If you would press the button in case of a fire you can expect ……
Slam_dunk
Well said !!!
Hugmonster,
Can you please stop assuming that the reason we "complain" about this practice is that
"we don't like hearing these practices". the only reason is : to keep the frequency quiet all the time, otherwise people switch it off or turn it down !!
Furthermore as pointed out earlier in this thread :
a. Students CAN do their practices on a "normal" not too busy freq.
b. you CAN get a QDM/QDR on a "normal" freq.
c. ATC still gets it's practice.
As a matter of fact I flew with a collegue who told me he was saved once by listening out on 121,5 while ATC was calling him on that frequency.
If there's a button on the wall to call the firebrigade in case of a fire, do we all need to train our students by instructing them to press the button ? Or can we just tell them : If you would press the button in case of a fire you can expect ……
Slam_dunk
Guest
Posts: n/a
Scando:-[list=1][*]Yes, I am an instructor.[*]The frequency is still available for emergency calls. It is very easy (I've heard it happen) to cancel a practice pan when a genuine emergency comes up.[*]I don't know anyone who would rather crash and burn. Your sarcasm does not aid this discussion. Please bin the attitude. However, many students (and PPLs) of my acquaintance who haven't used 121.5 for a practice pan are intimidated from using it, and many would, instead, bumble on, often into Controlled Airspace, when lost instead of calling up and asking for a position fix. This would not be a satisfactory state of affairs. It helps if they are confident that some ATCO will not make them feel a fool for having got lost.[*]You and I know it's not a complicated procedure. Until they've tried it, many of them don't realise this. Practice helps them.[/list=a]
slam_dunk:-[list=1][*]I don't see much effective difference in the reason you claim people don't like it.[*]There are very few frequencies where practice pan calls could be made. It would require an ATC unit, not AFIS or Radio. 121.5, on the other hand, is generally very quiet.[*]Yes, you can get QDM/QDR on many frequencies. However, you can not get a position fix by triangulation.[*]ATC does not get their practice, since they don't get to practice. Have you been asleep? Position fixing by D&D Cell is ONLY AVAILABLE ON 121.5![*]Perhaps your colleague should have been listening on a normal watch frequency instead of listening to 121.5?[/list=a]
I reiterate - I see no sufficient reason to change the system. Nobody has produced any evidence that safety is being impaired, that the practice is not worth the effort. The only hard evidence for change is those pilots who don't like listening to practice pans and turn the volume down. Well, tough.
slam_dunk:-[list=1][*]I don't see much effective difference in the reason you claim people don't like it.[*]There are very few frequencies where practice pan calls could be made. It would require an ATC unit, not AFIS or Radio. 121.5, on the other hand, is generally very quiet.[*]Yes, you can get QDM/QDR on many frequencies. However, you can not get a position fix by triangulation.[*]ATC does not get their practice, since they don't get to practice. Have you been asleep? Position fixing by D&D Cell is ONLY AVAILABLE ON 121.5![*]Perhaps your colleague should have been listening on a normal watch frequency instead of listening to 121.5?[/list=a]
I reiterate - I see no sufficient reason to change the system. Nobody has produced any evidence that safety is being impaired, that the practice is not worth the effort. The only hard evidence for change is those pilots who don't like listening to practice pans and turn the volume down. Well, tough.