Oh no, its "Practice pan, Practice pan" time again!!
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I've got a feeling this is sort of a mandatory part of the PPL nowadays.
PPLs are a important source of CPLs/ATPLs so it's all in a good cause.
Also if people are encouraged to seek help early on when they are lost, they stand much less chance of realizing where they are by that familiar shape of Heathrow .... half a mile of their starboard bow.
PPLs are a important source of CPLs/ATPLs so it's all in a good cause.
Also if people are encouraged to seek help early on when they are lost, they stand much less chance of realizing where they are by that familiar shape of Heathrow .... half a mile of their starboard bow.
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Why must they actually transmit the practice PAN calls? Isn't enough for the student to state the frequency he would use, then say the "transmission" aloud to the instructor? The instructor could then provide "radar vectors" or other instructions as a demonstration of what the student could expect in such an emergency. If I made an actual transmission on 121.5 about my "practice" emergency, I bet I'd be promptly instructed to "copy a number" for a proper chewing out once I had landed.
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Part of the reason for the encouragement of Practice Pans and Training Fixes is that the UK has (uniquely? - correct me if I'm wrong) a V/UHF fixer service on 121.5 and 243.0, and the Distress and Diversion controllers actually want the practice so that, when it's for real, they do their usual superb job. The reason that they can't do it all on another frequency is that their chain of VDF fixers around the UK are set on 121.5 and they'd need another chain to work another frequency.
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Luftwaffle-
The only time D&D will notify *anyone* about a call on 121.5 is if there is a resulting accident or incident.
And to everyone who disagrees with this practice:
I (as a PPL student) shall certainly make practice-Pan calls - I know my instructor (not someone in West Drayton) - this is not a realistic environment therefore, and why not use the real thing if it is available?
1) D&D like the practice
2) You can always stop a Practice Pan if a real Pan or Mayday takes place
3) Why are you whinging if it may save someone's life one day?
If more student PPL's were encouraged to famliarize themselves with the excellent service provided by D&D then it might just help them in an emergency.
-tacc
The only time D&D will notify *anyone* about a call on 121.5 is if there is a resulting accident or incident.
And to everyone who disagrees with this practice:
I (as a PPL student) shall certainly make practice-Pan calls - I know my instructor (not someone in West Drayton) - this is not a realistic environment therefore, and why not use the real thing if it is available?
1) D&D like the practice
2) You can always stop a Practice Pan if a real Pan or Mayday takes place
3) Why are you whinging if it may save someone's life one day?
If more student PPL's were encouraged to famliarize themselves with the excellent service provided by D&D then it might just help them in an emergency.
-tacc
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Flying around Europe I try to keep guard (121.5) open as much as possible to be of assistance to anybody who needs help. This seems to me the least I can do. I hope that when I need it there is at least one fellow pilot or a controller who listens to my distress call.
The sad thing is that when there is too much useless noise like "Practice Pan" or "Practice Mayday" calls or just stupid chatting on the freq I switch it off so my normal comm can get the attention it needs. I see most of my Effo's do the same.
The result is that less people will be listening in on guard and maybe, just maybe, on that very special once in a lifetime day everybody switched guard off.
Wouldn't that be sad?
The sad thing is that when there is too much useless noise like "Practice Pan" or "Practice Mayday" calls or just stupid chatting on the freq I switch it off so my normal comm can get the attention it needs. I see most of my Effo's do the same.
The result is that less people will be listening in on guard and maybe, just maybe, on that very special once in a lifetime day everybody switched guard off.
Wouldn't that be sad?
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Teeny Weeny said:
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Luftwaffle-
The only time D&D will notify *anyone* about a call on 121.5 is if there is a resulting accident or incident.
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And that provides the last piece of the puzzle for me to figure out how you could get away with practice Mayday calls.
In Canada we don't have a separate agency monitoring 121.5. It is monitored by control towers, flight services stations, and en route traffic that have a spare radio. If I were to make a transmission on 121.5 during my working day I would be directly alerting numerous busy air traffic controllers. See why I think I'd be told to "copy a number"?
Conversely, DF steers here are provided by certain towers on their own frequencies. A controller told me the equipment was quite useful, because when a pilot made a regular transmission he could tell from the equipment which direction the pilot was coming from, and not have to rely on student pilots' ideas of what constitutes "east" or "west" of the control zone. The VDF equiipment here doesn't seem to require a network on any one frequency.
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Luftwaffle-
The only time D&D will notify *anyone* about a call on 121.5 is if there is a resulting accident or incident.
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And that provides the last piece of the puzzle for me to figure out how you could get away with practice Mayday calls.
In Canada we don't have a separate agency monitoring 121.5. It is monitored by control towers, flight services stations, and en route traffic that have a spare radio. If I were to make a transmission on 121.5 during my working day I would be directly alerting numerous busy air traffic controllers. See why I think I'd be told to "copy a number"?
Conversely, DF steers here are provided by certain towers on their own frequencies. A controller told me the equipment was quite useful, because when a pilot made a regular transmission he could tell from the equipment which direction the pilot was coming from, and not have to rely on student pilots' ideas of what constitutes "east" or "west" of the control zone. The VDF equiipment here doesn't seem to require a network on any one frequency.
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I'm afraid I can't comment on Canada, sorry 
. I can understand what you say, and this is why the system in the UK is excelllent.
However, I know that you can't make practice Mayday calls (because it says so in my RT book here...)
The thing with VDF is it provides a bearing, not a fix. For a plane in distress to be found you need two or three VDF's to produce a position fix. Without SSR and xpdr's this is the best way to find an a/c. In the UK D&D reckon they can find a non-SSR equipped a/c anywhere in the UK above 2500' in about 20 seconds using VDF triangulation, and since this is already on the guard freq., the network of VDF's work best on 121.5.
-tacc
[This message has been edited by Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl (edited 11 April 2001).]
. I can understand what you say, and this is why the system in the UK is excelllent.However, I know that you can't make practice Mayday calls (because it says so in my RT book here...)
The thing with VDF is it provides a bearing, not a fix. For a plane in distress to be found you need two or three VDF's to produce a position fix. Without SSR and xpdr's this is the best way to find an a/c. In the UK D&D reckon they can find a non-SSR equipped a/c anywhere in the UK above 2500' in about 20 seconds using VDF triangulation, and since this is already on the guard freq., the network of VDF's work best on 121.5.
-tacc
[This message has been edited by Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl (edited 11 April 2001).]
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What a bunch of self oppinionated berks you airline pilots are. Practice pans are part of the PPL syllabus and are meant to both give D & D the practice and to encourage the budding pilot to contact them sooner rather than later when they are subsequently qualified and on their own. There have been far too many pilots who have delayed using 121.5 when lost because they have been indoctrinated with your arrogant ideas. These people have subsequently ended up as a mark on some granite. Don't ever forget that you used to be a green student at one time, one bad medical is all it needs for you to be less able to fly than that student you are listening to on 121.5!!!
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Tcas and CaptainSquelch - Well said!
clockworkclown - How about encouraging every single younster in the UK schoolsystem to make a practice call to the Firedepartment and of course the Police department in their neighbourhood just to make shure that tings are as they should be! Naaahh on the other hand, maybe not a good idea - the same goes for making practice calls on 121.5! The result is as allready stated in this thread, and we all know the story about Peter and The Wolf!
MP
clockworkclown - How about encouraging every single younster in the UK schoolsystem to make a practice call to the Firedepartment and of course the Police department in their neighbourhood just to make shure that tings are as they should be! Naaahh on the other hand, maybe not a good idea - the same goes for making practice calls on 121.5! The result is as allready stated in this thread, and we all know the story about Peter and The Wolf!
MP
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I believe the military have an alternative UHF Freq (245.1) for practice PANS so that 243.0 is left clear for the real thing. Why can't we do the same with VHF?
However, I do agree that Practice Pans are in the PPL syllabus and that there should be nothing particularly taboo about using 121.5, assuming pilots listen out first.
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However, I do agree that Practice Pans are in the PPL syllabus and that there should be nothing particularly taboo about using 121.5, assuming pilots listen out first.
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The idea behind the practice Pan is to show no-one bites. If you were told about it, but never used it, when the day comes you might delay thinking 'Oh I don't think this is serious enough yet'.
Practice Pans do not present a danger as you:
a) listen first
b) Get given a go ahead before you proceed
c) shut up if anything real commences
It may be a slight irritation to people but we have to learn and matters of safety are important. If you know that when you are in trouble a calm, friendly voice is there to advise you (because you have already used it)it will make a difference.
[This message has been edited by Capt Wannabee (edited 11 April 2001).]
Practice Pans do not present a danger as you:
a) listen first
b) Get given a go ahead before you proceed
c) shut up if anything real commences
It may be a slight irritation to people but we have to learn and matters of safety are important. If you know that when you are in trouble a calm, friendly voice is there to advise you (because you have already used it)it will make a difference.
[This message has been edited by Capt Wannabee (edited 11 April 2001).]
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It would be interesting to compare:
a) the number of lives saved in the UK by aircraft guarding 121.5
and
b) the number of lives lost because, for lack of knowledge of their capabilities, a timely distress or urgency call was not made to London D&D
I fear that a) is remarkably low, and b) distressingly high.
a) the number of lives saved in the UK by aircraft guarding 121.5
and
b) the number of lives lost because, for lack of knowledge of their capabilities, a timely distress or urgency call was not made to London D&D
I fear that a) is remarkably low, and b) distressingly high.
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Well said Bookworm, I personally listen out on 121.5 whenever I can and I see little problem with practise PANs. When they distract me from VHF1 I simply turn down the volume for a couple of minutes, after that they're finished anyway.
Scando, if you're seriously saying that there is no psychological difference between beeing tought someone is there and they should be nice and friendly, and KNOWING there's someone friendly there then you might want to do a bit more HP&L in my view.
Practice PANs are a good thing, I think so, and the people working in D&D when I was visiting not too long ago seemed to think so too. As bookworm said I believe they save more lives (or at least emberassments) than they cost.
--Edited to correct a couple of typos--
[This message has been edited by Phoenix_X (edited 12 April 2001).]
Scando, if you're seriously saying that there is no psychological difference between beeing tought someone is there and they should be nice and friendly, and KNOWING there's someone friendly there then you might want to do a bit more HP&L in my view.
Practice PANs are a good thing, I think so, and the people working in D&D when I was visiting not too long ago seemed to think so too. As bookworm said I believe they save more lives (or at least emberassments) than they cost.
--Edited to correct a couple of typos--
[This message has been edited by Phoenix_X (edited 12 April 2001).]
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I am glad to see some people realise the importance of new pilots becoming familiar and comfortable with Pan calls.
With regards to Scando and his comment on ignoring my yelping when I am lost in a valley, I totally understand how irrating my crys for help could be. When I watch the news and see footage of fellow humans in train crashes or earthquakes I too become irratated with the yelps for help!
With regards to Scando and his comment on ignoring my yelping when I am lost in a valley, I totally understand how irrating my crys for help could be. When I watch the news and see footage of fellow humans in train crashes or earthquakes I too become irratated with the yelps for help!
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To all those who find the stuttering attempts of students to get it right, and fail to see why the heck they just can't say what they mean, why they can't see the runway, blah blah blah...
Ever stop and wonder how irritating you were to professional pilots when you were a student?
Practise Pans are very useful. They not only assist students in seeing how easy it is to use a facility if later they get into trouble, they also assist the controllers in being fluent with their procedures.
Get a life, get a little sympathy with learners and stop being arrogant know-it-all prats.
Ever stop and wonder how irritating you were to professional pilots when you were a student?
Practise Pans are very useful. They not only assist students in seeing how easy it is to use a facility if later they get into trouble, they also assist the controllers in being fluent with their procedures.
Get a life, get a little sympathy with learners and stop being arrogant know-it-all prats.