New Cessna 172 Checklist
Guest
Posts: n/a
I must agree that whatever the size or operation of aeroplane, a checklist is an essential tool to safe operation.
I have said before on this forum and I will say it again, I refuse to fly with anybody who do not use a checklist. Thinking that all can be memorized is a surefire way to make mistakes. And as we all know in this business mistakes are what kills.
Sure, students should know the essential of the checklist. But memorizing is going to lead to disaster.
I have said before on this forum and I will say it again, I refuse to fly with anybody who do not use a checklist. Thinking that all can be memorized is a surefire way to make mistakes. And as we all know in this business mistakes are what kills.
Sure, students should know the essential of the checklist. But memorizing is going to lead to disaster.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Centaurus, I have flown parachute aircraft doing huge numbers of lifts per day.
I have also flown BN2's (about as simple as they get!) into rough strips in the Caribbean, doing a similar number of sectors per day as you quote.
And I still used a checklist.
If, as you appear to imply, there simply is not time, then there is something seriously wrong with the way you are operating, because expedience is being given priority over flight safety. I doubt that any authority would legislate for anything that is a basic ingredient of what is generally accepted as good airmanship. You might as well legislate that a pilot must look out of the window on his take-off roll...
We are not talking about using a bit of paper as a "read and do list". We're talking about having all the actions done and out of the way, then getting the checklist out and making sure you haven't missed anything.
I would worry about working with any pilot you've trained not to use a checklist.
In a multi-crew flightdeck, when checks are read using challenge and response, you find things that have been missed. It happens frequently.
Where there is nobody to challenge you, those missed items are not going to get picked up if you don't challenge yourself with a checklist. One day, that missed item may mean a fatal accident.
Please stop teaching lazy and dangerous practices.
[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 23 March 2001).]
I have also flown BN2's (about as simple as they get!) into rough strips in the Caribbean, doing a similar number of sectors per day as you quote.
And I still used a checklist.
If, as you appear to imply, there simply is not time, then there is something seriously wrong with the way you are operating, because expedience is being given priority over flight safety. I doubt that any authority would legislate for anything that is a basic ingredient of what is generally accepted as good airmanship. You might as well legislate that a pilot must look out of the window on his take-off roll...
We are not talking about using a bit of paper as a "read and do list". We're talking about having all the actions done and out of the way, then getting the checklist out and making sure you haven't missed anything.
I would worry about working with any pilot you've trained not to use a checklist.
In a multi-crew flightdeck, when checks are read using challenge and response, you find things that have been missed. It happens frequently.
Where there is nobody to challenge you, those missed items are not going to get picked up if you don't challenge yourself with a checklist. One day, that missed item may mean a fatal accident.
Please stop teaching lazy and dangerous practices.
[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 23 March 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Goodness me, such emotion.
Try reading a check list when you are part of an 8 aircraft formation. I flew fighters for many years and there are certain things that must be committed to memory.
Check lists by design were prodcued on the challenge and response system. Not too many people to talk to when you are single pilot IFR in alight twin at night? (Notwithstanding the fact that the lighting wont allow you to read too much of it anyway)
I have instructed in tandems (supersonics) and side by sides and with the correct PROCEDURES and follow-up simple check-lists (from memory) the operations have been safe for years.
Oh yes, I am also an airline pilot and agree that in the more complex aircraft (not necessarily modern ones) a challenge and response system is required....but puuuullleeeeesssee, in a simple aircraft, surely we can be expected to remember a couple of important items like TMPFFIHHC?
And as for modern aircraft, have a look at the B-767 and B747-400 check lists. Pretty basic.....like 5-6 itmes in the before takeoff check list.
And Oh yes again......I fly my own own aircraft for fun and it really is fun.
Finally, can't we be nice to each other and drop all the personal abuse. Some of the geriatrics flew in a couple of wars to allow us the freedom of speech and democracy, so let's be kind to them...and all of us will enjoy each other's company more.
Meanwhile, happy days to the good guys and may the jerks remain grounded!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Getting airborne fast in WW2 without a checklist? Sure!! Why not, when you have an engineer assigned to look after your aircraft, strap you in and even start the bloodey engine for you! And, of course, the pilots involved were flying every day and, often, several times every day -- 7 days a week! So, Centaurus would you want to use that argument to abandon Flight and Duty Time Limitations? 
So, okay then, if checklists aren't needed in single-engine, single pilot bugsmashers, however you define them, but ARE needed in the larger more complex aircraft, where does the habit form? Where does the indoctrination begin? I sure don't want to be teaching a 1000 hr pilot how to use a bloodey checklist in the B200 just coz he never needed it in the BN2 or whatever!
I, too, have been an instructor. Sometimes working in integrated commercial schools, sometimes in the less glamourous schools. In either case, it was never completely clear to me whether a trainee would end up in regular, gainful employment in commercial operations.
Some trainees never made the grade to the school's standards. Others did, but never took up the professional career. How were we, as instructors, supposed to tell the difference? So we got our students into the checklist habit.
Sure, it always starts as a "do" list but, as the training progresses, it becomes a confirmation of the vital actions initiated by the pilot. Geez, that exactly what it is in the B200!! Amazing huh!
I've also had quite a bit of experience in PNG, as you would be aware Centaurus and have done my share of 25-sector days in the hills. Everything from a C152 to an Aztec with Robertson STOL kit. Oh yeah, even an Islander or two.
All these machines ... ALL OF THEM were fitted with those plastic flip-up, flip-down checklists. And I always used them and always MADE THE TIME to use them. Why? I didn't want to overlook anything in my scans and vital actions.
Just as an example ... the pre-landing checklist had an item that prompted consideration of airfield elevation, density height and surface condition. Pretty important on a 25-sector day into lots of different places at different elevations and different types of landing surface, slope, yada yada yada. My shortest flight time between take-off and landing was about 3 minutes and I STILL managed to get thru all the checks in the list.
It's a matter of managing your aeroplane, your flight and your safety!
And what about the days when you had to step from one aircraft type to another? Dunno about you, mate, but I always needed a few minutes to adjust my thinking to a different type of engine and systems management. The checklist was a great way to do that.
Is this reality coming back to you yet? It's been a while since I had to do any of that "stooging around the hills" sh!t. If I had to climb back into a C206 or the like right now, I'd be grateful for the checklist.
And now to the other point you so conveniently ignored about flying around the bush strips in PNG. You had a training pilot with you for quite a while at first, then you were checked on the various routes and into the various strips. While this was (and remains) a legal requirement, the operators have a vested interest in it too.
This is because, while one prang a year is good for the insurance payout and a day (at most) of bad publicity, a second prang in the same year invites scrutiny of the worst kind. No operator wants that coz they start losing money in a situation where they run a business that's intended to make money.
So they want their flights to be as safe as possible too. That attitude is even more evident these days than it ever used to be -- and that is a good thing.
Checklists and airmanship, airmanship and checklists. It's all the same to me and always has been. You teach it to students from the outset and you end up saving lives and keeping your employer in business. By keeping him in business, you keep yourself in work.
And, even now, I've barely addressed the pilots who don't fly as regularly as the rest of us. But, then, I reckon enough has already been by others about that and I will simply endorse their views. Have a great day in your 737 mate.
------------------
Once a king, always a king.
But once a nite's barely adequate!
[This message has been edited by OzExpat (edited 24 March 2001).]
So, okay then, if checklists aren't needed in single-engine, single pilot bugsmashers, however you define them, but ARE needed in the larger more complex aircraft, where does the habit form? Where does the indoctrination begin? I sure don't want to be teaching a 1000 hr pilot how to use a bloodey checklist in the B200 just coz he never needed it in the BN2 or whatever!
I, too, have been an instructor. Sometimes working in integrated commercial schools, sometimes in the less glamourous schools. In either case, it was never completely clear to me whether a trainee would end up in regular, gainful employment in commercial operations.
Some trainees never made the grade to the school's standards. Others did, but never took up the professional career. How were we, as instructors, supposed to tell the difference? So we got our students into the checklist habit.
Sure, it always starts as a "do" list but, as the training progresses, it becomes a confirmation of the vital actions initiated by the pilot. Geez, that exactly what it is in the B200!! Amazing huh!
I've also had quite a bit of experience in PNG, as you would be aware Centaurus and have done my share of 25-sector days in the hills. Everything from a C152 to an Aztec with Robertson STOL kit. Oh yeah, even an Islander or two.
All these machines ... ALL OF THEM were fitted with those plastic flip-up, flip-down checklists. And I always used them and always MADE THE TIME to use them. Why? I didn't want to overlook anything in my scans and vital actions.
Just as an example ... the pre-landing checklist had an item that prompted consideration of airfield elevation, density height and surface condition. Pretty important on a 25-sector day into lots of different places at different elevations and different types of landing surface, slope, yada yada yada. My shortest flight time between take-off and landing was about 3 minutes and I STILL managed to get thru all the checks in the list.
It's a matter of managing your aeroplane, your flight and your safety!
And what about the days when you had to step from one aircraft type to another? Dunno about you, mate, but I always needed a few minutes to adjust my thinking to a different type of engine and systems management. The checklist was a great way to do that.
Is this reality coming back to you yet? It's been a while since I had to do any of that "stooging around the hills" sh!t. If I had to climb back into a C206 or the like right now, I'd be grateful for the checklist.
And now to the other point you so conveniently ignored about flying around the bush strips in PNG. You had a training pilot with you for quite a while at first, then you were checked on the various routes and into the various strips. While this was (and remains) a legal requirement, the operators have a vested interest in it too.
This is because, while one prang a year is good for the insurance payout and a day (at most) of bad publicity, a second prang in the same year invites scrutiny of the worst kind. No operator wants that coz they start losing money in a situation where they run a business that's intended to make money.
So they want their flights to be as safe as possible too. That attitude is even more evident these days than it ever used to be -- and that is a good thing.
Checklists and airmanship, airmanship and checklists. It's all the same to me and always has been. You teach it to students from the outset and you end up saving lives and keeping your employer in business. By keeping him in business, you keep yourself in work.
And, even now, I've barely addressed the pilots who don't fly as regularly as the rest of us. But, then, I reckon enough has already been by others about that and I will simply endorse their views. Have a great day in your 737 mate.
------------------
Once a king, always a king.
But once a nite's barely adequate!
[This message has been edited by OzExpat (edited 24 March 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sure you don´t need a checklist on a 172.
Everytime I have a student with that attitude, I simply switch the fuel selector to closed and order a lenghty engine check.
The sudden engine stop usually makes it clear!
I´m instructing PPL and also do typeratings and IFR checks on B90/B200´s,and since I was operating single Pilot very often, I learned the hard way to use checklist.
Then beside safety there´s another point :
have a screening with a major airline and don´t order checklists, you´ll have failed 100%. So why should one NOT learn it the correct way around from scratch ?
On the other hand, checklist should be short and logically, otherwise they will not be used.
Everytime I have a student with that attitude, I simply switch the fuel selector to closed and order a lenghty engine check.
The sudden engine stop usually makes it clear!
I´m instructing PPL and also do typeratings and IFR checks on B90/B200´s,and since I was operating single Pilot very often, I learned the hard way to use checklist.
Then beside safety there´s another point :
have a screening with a major airline and don´t order checklists, you´ll have failed 100%. So why should one NOT learn it the correct way around from scratch ?
On the other hand, checklist should be short and logically, otherwise they will not be used.
Guest
Posts: n/a
So if you are a PPL, CPL or ATPL....
what point do you decide that you dont need to use them anymore?
All ive heard is that bla bla yeh on a 757 bla blah.........and that there are only a few pre take off checks etc. The people doing these checks probably have a couple of thousand hours behind them, half of that reading checklists. Many PPL`s want to be ATPL`s, and if running thru the checklists makes them feel them more proffesional then let `em.
------------------
If it aint a Boeing, then, erm, its probably an Airbus
what point do you decide that you dont need to use them anymore?
All ive heard is that bla bla yeh on a 757 bla blah.........and that there are only a few pre take off checks etc. The people doing these checks probably have a couple of thousand hours behind them, half of that reading checklists. Many PPL`s want to be ATPL`s, and if running thru the checklists makes them feel them more proffesional then let `em.
------------------
If it aint a Boeing, then, erm, its probably an Airbus
Guest
Posts: n/a
Genghis, when I started gliding (age 16) used to have them for the Ka7 trainer as well. Even less to do than in a microlight!
The level of complacency that allows people to think they can get into an aircraft (any aircraft) and fly it without a checklist will, sooner or later, kill people.
The level of complacency that allows people to think they can get into an aircraft (any aircraft) and fly it without a checklist will, sooner or later, kill people.
Guest
Posts: n/a
All this talk about use of checklists makes me sick. Lets face it, if you need a checklist for a small single engined aircraft, well maybe you shouldn’t be flying. From the word go most flying schools introduce checklists to students on simple C-152, C-172 and so on. It’s all a big time waster; schools seam to spend up to 15 min’s on the ground doing checks. All great for the school big $$$$$ coming in, most students don’t have lots of money to burn. Students can spend all the time they need at home studying aircraft procedures and checks, it’s free.
I have seen checklists printed by a major Australian company. They have checklists for all kinds of singles used in flying schools.
I didn’t know a C-152 had retractable gear, or a variable pitch prop?????
If a checklist is to be used, it should be in accordance to the pilot-operating handbook. Not Joe Blow from down the street.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for good airmanship and safety.
When I am flying into a busy MBZ, I would like to know that the pilot of a light aircraft ahead is looking outside, not trying to read a bloody checklist.
[This message has been edited by Flight Deck (edited 28 March 2001).]
I have seen checklists printed by a major Australian company. They have checklists for all kinds of singles used in flying schools.
I didn’t know a C-152 had retractable gear, or a variable pitch prop?????
If a checklist is to be used, it should be in accordance to the pilot-operating handbook. Not Joe Blow from down the street.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for good airmanship and safety.
When I am flying into a busy MBZ, I would like to know that the pilot of a light aircraft ahead is looking outside, not trying to read a bloody checklist.
[This message has been edited by Flight Deck (edited 28 March 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but we seem to be confusing preflight checks with enroute/landing checks. Of course you can memorise the enroute/landing checks - let's face it, it doesn't take much to remember your FREDA checks - and most of them can, and often are, done perfectly safely. There's not much to commit to memory.
But when you're on the ground, why the big rush? Preflight checks on something like a PA38 are easy enough to remember, but why rely on your memory, especially as a low hours PPL student, when you have the time to go through it all with a checklist? Does it really take that much longer to run your finger down a list and action whatever needs actioning than doing it all from memory? I don't think so.
But when you're on the ground, why the big rush? Preflight checks on something like a PA38 are easy enough to remember, but why rely on your memory, especially as a low hours PPL student, when you have the time to go through it all with a checklist? Does it really take that much longer to run your finger down a list and action whatever needs actioning than doing it all from memory? I don't think so.
Guest
Posts: n/a
IMHO the use of checklists is to ensure that nothing Vital is missed in the preflight phase. This surely must apply to any type of craft that is going to be taking to the sky. I have seen/watched numbers of GA pilots who's idea of a preflight check is to undo the tiedowns. We live/operate and work in a safety culture, and what better way of reinforcing good practices can we offer aircrew. Complacency often kills. Furthermore, the pilot who posted the message was looking to be "professional", and this is to be applauded, not denigrated. If such a professional attitude is learned early, then the transition to bigger/larger aircraft is eased, especially in an Multi Crew environment.
The defence rests.
Tailwinds
The defence rests.
Tailwinds
Guest
Posts: n/a
It's really quite simple, folks. This is not rocket science.
Nobody is talking about using checklists as a "do" lost. If you don't know your airborne checks, you shouldn't be there.
If you're really bothered about the money you're spending for 5 minutes extra on the ground getting yourself organised and the aircraft configured correctly etc. etc. then you should give up now, because you'll never be able to afford it.
No, a C152 is not a complex aircraft. So where do all these idiots think the line is for which aircraft you use a checklist for and which you don't? VP props? Retractable gear? Both? Turbochargers? Multi engine? Give me a break.
People will always be slower when learning than once they've got it sussed. Do NOT teach them cavalier attitudes. Teach them professionalism. Otherwise, once they THINK they're cool hotshot aviators, procedures will go to pot. I've seen it happen. I've had to instruct almost from scratch a guy who wanted an IMC rating. He had several hundred hours in his own Cub. Any time I told him to do a FREDA check, or to run after landing checks, his answer was "I was never taught to bother about things like that". This guy was downright dangerous. His attitude was that he knew it all, he had no need of a checklist. Actually, he knew just about nothing. He didn't even check the DG on lining up on the runway (I once saw it 40 degrees out, and let him sweat. He was really quite angry with me - "Why didn't you tell me it was that far out?"
His problem was complacency. Ensuring all checks are done is professionalism. He couldn't handle the concept.
In the air, run through all the actions. Then get the checklist out and doublecheck yourself. Multicrew you have someone else checking you, and THEN you still run the checks. Singlecrew if you miss something, how are you ever going to catch the omission without a checklist? If you think you're that clever that you never will miss anything, then let me know who you are, because I never want to fly in the back of any aircraft that you're flying.
Nobody is talking about using checklists as a "do" lost. If you don't know your airborne checks, you shouldn't be there.
If you're really bothered about the money you're spending for 5 minutes extra on the ground getting yourself organised and the aircraft configured correctly etc. etc. then you should give up now, because you'll never be able to afford it.
No, a C152 is not a complex aircraft. So where do all these idiots think the line is for which aircraft you use a checklist for and which you don't? VP props? Retractable gear? Both? Turbochargers? Multi engine? Give me a break.
People will always be slower when learning than once they've got it sussed. Do NOT teach them cavalier attitudes. Teach them professionalism. Otherwise, once they THINK they're cool hotshot aviators, procedures will go to pot. I've seen it happen. I've had to instruct almost from scratch a guy who wanted an IMC rating. He had several hundred hours in his own Cub. Any time I told him to do a FREDA check, or to run after landing checks, his answer was "I was never taught to bother about things like that". This guy was downright dangerous. His attitude was that he knew it all, he had no need of a checklist. Actually, he knew just about nothing. He didn't even check the DG on lining up on the runway (I once saw it 40 degrees out, and let him sweat. He was really quite angry with me - "Why didn't you tell me it was that far out?"
His problem was complacency. Ensuring all checks are done is professionalism. He couldn't handle the concept.
In the air, run through all the actions. Then get the checklist out and doublecheck yourself. Multicrew you have someone else checking you, and THEN you still run the checks. Singlecrew if you miss something, how are you ever going to catch the omission without a checklist? If you think you're that clever that you never will miss anything, then let me know who you are, because I never want to fly in the back of any aircraft that you're flying.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Instructors could do worse than telling their students to go and buy a suitable notebook from WH Smiths and make them generate their own checklist. So long as it meets the basic minima of the POH, a degree of individualism (agreed before use with their instructor) might create a familiarity and respect for the checklist that wouldn't otherwise be there.
G
G
Guest
Posts: n/a
To all the above, who think they know so much. I ask this,
How long would it take to perform a pre takeoff check in a B737, B767 etc…?
I mean a C172 has many more systems than a B737, so 15 min’s should be ok… try telling that to your new employer.
Seeing a student pilot sitting on a run-up bay reading his checklist, taking all the time he needs. Great nothing should go wrong, you hope. If the **** hits the fan at 300ft he will have no time to read his checklist, but may have no choice.
In reply to above, do you really need a check for the cabin doors in light singles, they are beside you aren’t they.
If being un-current is your problem, maybe you should read the POH before going for a flight. The checklist seams to be relied on as a second hand FO.
Lets face it, with all you have to play with in a C172, I give myself 2 min’s top’s to set it all up.
If a student needs a list to help him set up him aircraft before flight, well maybe it should come from the POH, not a printing company.
How long would it take to perform a pre takeoff check in a B737, B767 etc…?
I mean a C172 has many more systems than a B737, so 15 min’s should be ok… try telling that to your new employer.
Seeing a student pilot sitting on a run-up bay reading his checklist, taking all the time he needs. Great nothing should go wrong, you hope. If the **** hits the fan at 300ft he will have no time to read his checklist, but may have no choice.
In reply to above, do you really need a check for the cabin doors in light singles, they are beside you aren’t they.
If being un-current is your problem, maybe you should read the POH before going for a flight. The checklist seams to be relied on as a second hand FO.
Lets face it, with all you have to play with in a C172, I give myself 2 min’s top’s to set it all up.
If a student needs a list to help him set up him aircraft before flight, well maybe it should come from the POH, not a printing company.
Guest
Posts: n/a
FlightDeck, I see nothing in your post that argues against using a checklist.
Yes, I am totally against a checklist that has unnecessary items in it, and against people, particularly low-houred studes and PPL's being unfamiliar with the aircraft.
But that does not mean they have no use for a checklist.
Would you bet your life on never missing a vital item without a checklist?
Yes, I am totally against a checklist that has unnecessary items in it, and against people, particularly low-houred studes and PPL's being unfamiliar with the aircraft.
But that does not mean they have no use for a checklist.
Would you bet your life on never missing a vital item without a checklist?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hugmonster is still spot on. People learning to fly need to get used to doing things in a methodical and meaning-full manner. Flight Deck is the big "I am" and frankly I dont give a $hit. If in time they get used to committing checks to memory, then good. They may have no interst in 737`s and 767`s. If they commit the right info to memory, they will be able to do everything perfectly. On the ground the payment doesnt start till they release the brakes, so if you want to use a checklist on your walkround, then do it. The same as start up and taxi - its no use FlightDeck whinging on others behalf about hourly rates, we know about them. Its our money, if we want to spend it making our aircraft secure for departure, rather than presume its ok because we just spoke to the instructor that bought it back, thats up to us. Let us get on with it. I do understand what you are getting at, but it wont suit the bulk of GA Pilots, not until of course, that they are as godly as you.
How can you tell when Flight Deck is at your party?
You dont, he tells you......
How can you tell when Flight Deck is at your party?
You dont, he tells you......
Guest
Posts: n/a
Speedbird. You seem to have an unfortunate habit of making personal attacks on readers who post discussion points on Pprune. It is this bad attitude that quickly puts the shutters up on those of us who enjoy an intelligent technical discourse. By all means add your bit to any subject on Pprune which takes your fancy - but do try to maintain a modicum of plain old fashioned good manners at the same time. Your rather childish petulant attacks on Flightdeck are lowering the usually high standard of debate on Tech Log. Now be a good boy and go and take another tablet....
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree, and I appologise, bad day. It just feels like what he says goes. People learning to fly arent all wannabe jet jockeys, and saying that if a pilot needs to use a checklist, he shouldnt be flying at all? That attitude winds me up, and again, im sorry for having a go but lets remember that safety is the priority, not being a smartarse.
Sorry flightdeck, lets get back to a decent level of discussion.
Sorry flightdeck, lets get back to a decent level of discussion.