Concorde to Retire?
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Big Tudor - that would assume that the world economy didn't perform quite as badly as it did when Concorde was available - it did of course actually have a large number of orders, all of which were cancelled eventually. This included American carriers such as (I believe) Pan Am. Besides that I don't quite see how American involvement would have given it a difference career, since the costs were absorbed by the UK and French governments (which I am sure the US would also have done) and certainly the current state of United and American is a lot less robust than BA and Air France.
The rumour that is going the rounds is not exactly that BA will no longer keep it flying, but that if it came to such a situation such as losing its CAA certificate, then BA and AF would not bother to invest in ANY futher modifications.
The investment made post Paris certainly demonstrates to me that there was a certain pride in this aircraft, don't you?
The rumour that is going the rounds is not exactly that BA will no longer keep it flying, but that if it came to such a situation such as losing its CAA certificate, then BA and AF would not bother to invest in ANY futher modifications.
The investment made post Paris certainly demonstrates to me that there was a certain pride in this aircraft, don't you?
Alba Gu Brath
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By a different career I mean that a long-term investment and development program would have been created with the project to create a successor when the time came. What we have is the pride of the British Airways fleet suffering criticism from a British public who don't seem to recognise what an achievement Concorde was for Anglo-French industry. Such achievements seem to receive far more recognition amongst the US public than over here.
The economic climate was hardly conducive to such an expensive aircraft but it was no different when the B747 first took to the skies, and it is hard to see how that project could not be called a success. The order book was looking quite healthy at first for Concorde but, in my opinion, the sway of public opinion in the US contributed to the cancellation of those orders. Would US public opinion have been so anti if the SST was part/wholly US designed & built? Who am I to say.
It seems a great shame that no aircraft manufacturer is prepared to look to high speed aircraft as a viable solution for the future. It seems ironic that the average flying time across the Atlantic is now 10 mins longer than when Concorde first flew!
The economic climate was hardly conducive to such an expensive aircraft but it was no different when the B747 first took to the skies, and it is hard to see how that project could not be called a success. The order book was looking quite healthy at first for Concorde but, in my opinion, the sway of public opinion in the US contributed to the cancellation of those orders. Would US public opinion have been so anti if the SST was part/wholly US designed & built? Who am I to say.
It seems a great shame that no aircraft manufacturer is prepared to look to high speed aircraft as a viable solution for the future. It seems ironic that the average flying time across the Atlantic is now 10 mins longer than when Concorde first flew!
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Higher fares for Concorde
Wino,
For a return trip to JFK, out 10/3 back 14/3, First Class return is £6,576 and Concorde return is £8,272.
So I guess that there is still a "premium" for Concorde.
For a return trip to JFK, out 10/3 back 14/3, First Class return is £6,576 and Concorde return is £8,272.
So I guess that there is still a "premium" for Concorde.
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Doing it together?
I was lucky enough to realise a long held ambition to fly on Concorde to JFK and back recently.
Talking to the CC on the flight over I was asking about the long term prospects. I was told that there were no plans at present to retire her, but that the ever increasing maintenance costs were an issue. A break even point of around 32 full fare payers (I was on an upgrade both ways!) was quoted for covering the running/non-maintenance costs. Something backed up in WOK's post above.
However the key point made was that all Concorde decisions were in tandem with Air France ... the innaugural flights, the return to service dates etc.. So the last flights would be the same for both fleets. Part of some original agreement or something. If this is so then a) what is AF's view on the matter, and b) is there any truth in the date of 2007 for the AF Concorde's I read elswhere? Doesn't that tie BA into 2007, if the "Concorde" agreement holds true?
I'm no accountant, but isn't having Concorde on your fleet like invisible income from tourism etc.? It's simple to tally up the running costs, drop in yields elsewhere, etc. but how many punters does it bring to the airlines because of it's fame/notoriety/anorak factor (me!) etc.?
Duncan
Talking to the CC on the flight over I was asking about the long term prospects. I was told that there were no plans at present to retire her, but that the ever increasing maintenance costs were an issue. A break even point of around 32 full fare payers (I was on an upgrade both ways!) was quoted for covering the running/non-maintenance costs. Something backed up in WOK's post above.
However the key point made was that all Concorde decisions were in tandem with Air France ... the innaugural flights, the return to service dates etc.. So the last flights would be the same for both fleets. Part of some original agreement or something. If this is so then a) what is AF's view on the matter, and b) is there any truth in the date of 2007 for the AF Concorde's I read elswhere? Doesn't that tie BA into 2007, if the "Concorde" agreement holds true?
I'm no accountant, but isn't having Concorde on your fleet like invisible income from tourism etc.? It's simple to tally up the running costs, drop in yields elsewhere, etc. but how many punters does it bring to the airlines because of it's fame/notoriety/anorak factor (me!) etc.?
Duncan
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latest cuts
It is sad to hear this news & rumours but no smoke without fire as they say. The reports of people being "given the boot" is maybe a result as a continued drive by the bean counters to drive efficiency and work appropriate levels of staff (overheads) in proportion to aircraft utilisation and revenue.
It is fair to say there are 5 of these aircraft "air worthy" currently - BA might see it as how much overhead do we need to support the amount of aircraft, small number off flights, low utilisation and volatile NAT market.
Parts - yes, remains an issue for any old aircraft or vehicle indeed.
Is there any plans to use the Concordes "not in service" of the G-BOAA to BOAG airframes for cannibalisation as the source of parts on the other airframes expire?
It is fair to say there are 5 of these aircraft "air worthy" currently - BA might see it as how much overhead do we need to support the amount of aircraft, small number off flights, low utilisation and volatile NAT market.
Parts - yes, remains an issue for any old aircraft or vehicle indeed.
Is there any plans to use the Concordes "not in service" of the G-BOAA to BOAG airframes for cannibalisation as the source of parts on the other airframes expire?
Someone said that Concorde creams the high yield pax. from the subsonic fleets. In fact Concorde is used as a marketing tool by the airline when selling large corporate accounts (which must be the life blood of biz. and first class) by offering a certain number of Concorde upgrades per year in the deal thereby making BA more attractive than it's transatlantic rivals.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
WOK: Five BA Concs (not 3) have returned to flight status, the sixth is on hold until market conditions are more favourable, the seventh would only be required when a board decision was taken to return to running a very comprehensive charter programme.
BRISTOLRE: Is there any plans to use the Concordes "not in service" of the G-BOAA to BOAG airframes for cannibalisation as the source of parts on the other airframes expire?
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It has not *definitely* been decided to retire/cannibalise AA but, bluntly, unless the worlds economy makes a spectacular unexpected recovery or BA decides to run a massive charter programme, she is unlikely to be needed for years to come. The airframe is entirely intact, minus elevons, pcus and some windows, and is safely stored under cover. She even has three Olympus' on board.
AB is in another hangar, again structurally intact, sans engines, elevons and rudders but with pfcus and with the engineering work on the new lavatories complete. Both still await spar72 mod and liners. AB would be the next airframe out when required.
AG is just about to emerge with the phase 2 flt deck door, C,D,E &F will folllow soon.
With a very large FD door modification programme ongoing through the airline it is hard commit enough engineers to the operation to move things any faster, so it is probable that even without the dismal economic climate AB would be waiting for a while yet.
"....rumours of the Conc fleet's demise are greatly exaggerated........."
AB is in another hangar, again structurally intact, sans engines, elevons and rudders but with pfcus and with the engineering work on the new lavatories complete. Both still await spar72 mod and liners. AB would be the next airframe out when required.
AG is just about to emerge with the phase 2 flt deck door, C,D,E &F will folllow soon.
With a very large FD door modification programme ongoing through the airline it is hard commit enough engineers to the operation to move things any faster, so it is probable that even without the dismal economic climate AB would be waiting for a while yet.
"....rumours of the Conc fleet's demise are greatly exaggerated........."
ex-Tanker
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Stelios' dad got rich by buying tankers at a time when no-one could operate them profitably and then waiting. Last year's rumour about easyConc could yet come to fruition...
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WOK, you said;
Not quite true. With only 2 of the aircraft current serviceable out of 5, BA are cancelling services in March.....so that they don't have to cancel services in March, in order that they can produce a rubust service. So they are pre-cancelling services so that they can point to the operation and say "Look, it works". Mickey Mouse or what.
Load factors were at 70-80%, but the majority of those were upgrades from passengers who had paid for a full fare Club World ticket.
Actually, to 2007.
So BA kicked them out just one day before they were due to get a pay rise on the Concorde Fleet.
Getting back to the thread topic, the remaining Flight Engineers on the Concorde Fleet will be able to provide one flight a day only up to September 2004 - 18 months away. This is due to retirements. So the original posters comments about Concorde about to retire may very well come true within the next 18 months or so, won't it?
regards
BA are not dropping services - we fly 7 JFKs in Summer and 6 jfks plus one BGI in Winter. Occasionally, a JFK is left out of the timetable (not cancelled) e.g. Christmas or when the extra BGIs are run near xmas.
Someone said Load factors had been low - we ran all Summer, Autumn and most of the Winter with LFs in excess of 80%. Break even is dependent onfuel prices but is 15-25%. There are hard times ahead, which is why there are no plans to restart a double-daily at this time.
The Fes are a more sensitive matter. The fleet was deliberately over-established with FEs when the classic retired in order to maintain the programme to 2010-2015.
The FEs had nowhere to go and 10 are apparently not going to be required owing to the reduced flying programme. They have our utmost sympathy.
Getting back to the thread topic, the remaining Flight Engineers on the Concorde Fleet will be able to provide one flight a day only up to September 2004 - 18 months away. This is due to retirements. So the original posters comments about Concorde about to retire may very well come true within the next 18 months or so, won't it?
regards
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Retiring Concorde would be a typically stupid British thing to do.
Its the only thing we have left to be proud of.
BA Beancounters do not realise that Conc is good for Morale, good for Corporate and Frequent fliers alike. However, as usual they are trying their best to kill her off, just like BR did with the railways
Death by a thousand cuts.
As I have mentioned before. Look what you get for your 9K pounds now.
1) New seats - absolutely awful. Plastic with a bit of leather. Lean back too fast and they break
2) Cut down cabin service who can hardly get round the PAX
3) All the little gifts taken away, like seat back cards etc
It used to be a pleasure, but now its just a time saving device. After 25 trips on the old girl its not the fun it used to be. I used to find all sorts of creative ways to get the company to pay but I can't be bothered any more.
Don't get me wrong, BA is the best Airline bar none, look at the ridiculous efforts of Virgin et al to produce flat beds in business class, but either offer a service comparable with the price or give it up.
Its the only thing we have left to be proud of.
BA Beancounters do not realise that Conc is good for Morale, good for Corporate and Frequent fliers alike. However, as usual they are trying their best to kill her off, just like BR did with the railways
Death by a thousand cuts.
As I have mentioned before. Look what you get for your 9K pounds now.
1) New seats - absolutely awful. Plastic with a bit of leather. Lean back too fast and they break
2) Cut down cabin service who can hardly get round the PAX
3) All the little gifts taken away, like seat back cards etc
It used to be a pleasure, but now its just a time saving device. After 25 trips on the old girl its not the fun it used to be. I used to find all sorts of creative ways to get the company to pay but I can't be bothered any more.
Don't get me wrong, BA is the best Airline bar none, look at the ridiculous efforts of Virgin et al to produce flat beds in business class, but either offer a service comparable with the price or give it up.
Whilst I expect there will continue to be plenty of people out there willing to fork over £2 grand more than first class return transatlantic for the financial exclusivity of flying Concorde, the combination of diminishing yields and prestige must be wearing somewhat thin.
Consider, what importance do the 99.9% (or whatever the percentage really is) of BA's customers attach to the fact that BA also operate Concordes? Does that mental association really influence their ticket decisions? Do they really think BA's operating Concorde makes their own flight better/safer/more exclusive etc? What do they really think of the people who DO pay nearly twenty times as much just to save a few hours of transatlantic flight time. Having thought, does that make them buy BA again, or not?
Don't shoot me; I'm just asking questions of myself. But put national pride and aversion to beancounters aside for a moment. There comes a stage when you do have to step back and try to see what the world is thinking and where you fit into it all. On that basis and considering the rumours posted herein, I'd bet on termination this year.
Back 31/12/03
broadreach
Consider, what importance do the 99.9% (or whatever the percentage really is) of BA's customers attach to the fact that BA also operate Concordes? Does that mental association really influence their ticket decisions? Do they really think BA's operating Concorde makes their own flight better/safer/more exclusive etc? What do they really think of the people who DO pay nearly twenty times as much just to save a few hours of transatlantic flight time. Having thought, does that make them buy BA again, or not?
Don't shoot me; I'm just asking questions of myself. But put national pride and aversion to beancounters aside for a moment. There comes a stage when you do have to step back and try to see what the world is thinking and where you fit into it all. On that basis and considering the rumours posted herein, I'd bet on termination this year.
Back 31/12/03
broadreach
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TV NEWS ON THIS
It now appears that the UK TV has got to hear about this!!!
As a snippet piece of news today GMTV and BBC Breakfast news in the UK at 0630hrs this morning reports "speculation brewing over the early retirement of Concorde since the Air France accident".
Pictures of a BA Conc in new livery landing on 27L shown.
I wonder if the breakfast news teams peruse PPRUNE in search of stories?
Either way it will be a sad day when she dissapears.
I hope that it will be a long long time from now.
As a snippet piece of news today GMTV and BBC Breakfast news in the UK at 0630hrs this morning reports "speculation brewing over the early retirement of Concorde since the Air France accident".
Pictures of a BA Conc in new livery landing on 27L shown.
I wonder if the breakfast news teams peruse PPRUNE in search of stories?
Either way it will be a sad day when she dissapears.
I hope that it will be a long long time from now.
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Sky news confirmed it about half an hour ago.
Presumably BA will take into account the imminent rise in fuel costs and the fact it is a major terrorist target.
I feel the fat lady is singing for Concorde..
Presumably BA will take into account the imminent rise in fuel costs and the fact it is a major terrorist target.
I feel the fat lady is singing for Concorde..
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It'll be a sad day when Concorde flies no more. It's such a beautiful plane, with style as well as good engineering.
It's also very sad that in the 21st century we don't have anything to beat it. We should be travelling London- Sydney in less than half a day on a hypersonic sub-orbital jet by now...!
If not that, then you'd think with modern materials we could build a super-concorde capable to taking more passengers with greater efficiency?
I hope when BA do withdraw it that they can give them to the Red Arrows for special formations... That was bloody impressive at the Jubilee last year!
It's also very sad that in the 21st century we don't have anything to beat it. We should be travelling London- Sydney in less than half a day on a hypersonic sub-orbital jet by now...!
If not that, then you'd think with modern materials we could build a super-concorde capable to taking more passengers with greater efficiency?
I hope when BA do withdraw it that they can give them to the Red Arrows for special formations... That was bloody impressive at the Jubilee last year!