Concorde to Retire?
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suggested earlier that journalists are nothing but spineless layabouts who will sieze on any old tittle tattle so they can bung together a few library pictures and aimless quotes before belting down the pub.
Not entirely true, as it happens. My apologies in particular to the gentlemen of The Guardian. I am pleased to report they did not fall for this nonsense. They merely added a one liner to another story, mentioning that the Sun was speculating about Concorde and that was the last we heard on the subject.
Not entirely true, as it happens. My apologies in particular to the gentlemen of The Guardian. I am pleased to report they did not fall for this nonsense. They merely added a one liner to another story, mentioning that the Sun was speculating about Concorde and that was the last we heard on the subject.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WOK's right - we seem to be stuck in a feedback loop here with very few facts.
Particularly the regular posting "BA, having secured her commercially for themselves whilst others sought to operate her".
When Concorde entered commercial service absolutely nobody, not even BA, wanted it. Every airline with an option on purchase had cancelled and the government (who built it) had to run it under their own airline's (unwilling) operation. No one else "sought to operate her".
After selling the Concorde and the rest of the airline into the private sector, BA was required to pay millions toward Concorde R&D (far from the "free gift" story trotted out by the uninformed) in order to keep the operation and in very brave and ingenious "sink or swim" style made the operation work commercially and launched the supersonic transport into the success it became. BA built the successful SST operation from the economically bankrupt nationalised start and earned every penny of it, other airlines may have looked on enviously in the late '80s & '90s, but they had missed the boat by then.
Branson keeps needling that he'd "condsider it" or words to that effect, but the truth is nobody else could or would take it on now - it would be like trying to transplant a 200-year old oak tree into a garden allotment. Good for headline-grabbing, but BA has no duty to "give" Concorde to anyone else and nor would anyone else want it - they couldn't run it because the whole support infrastructure is so massive.
All that has happened here is that someone has noticed that all aeroplanes have a finite life, Concorde has served many more years than most others (maybe all? I don't know) and have then asked BA when is it due to retire. BA quite reasonably said "at some stage, but we don't yet know when - we'll tell you when the decision is made" and that didn't satisfy the hacks, who interpreted "sometime" as meaning gloom and failure. For heaven's sake even the Daily T. said something along the lines of "early retirment looms for Concorde" - early retirement??? Almost 30 years from introduction into service and 34 years from her first flight - "early retirement"!!!.
The capricious high cost / high revenue nature of an SST means that the commercially sensible operator will carefully monitor the latter years of the aircraft's life. That is all that is happening here - ultimately we must accept that all good things must come to an end. But not just yet, there are some years still left to serve, and even then - we bloody did it, didn't we!
Particularly the regular posting "BA, having secured her commercially for themselves whilst others sought to operate her".
When Concorde entered commercial service absolutely nobody, not even BA, wanted it. Every airline with an option on purchase had cancelled and the government (who built it) had to run it under their own airline's (unwilling) operation. No one else "sought to operate her".
After selling the Concorde and the rest of the airline into the private sector, BA was required to pay millions toward Concorde R&D (far from the "free gift" story trotted out by the uninformed) in order to keep the operation and in very brave and ingenious "sink or swim" style made the operation work commercially and launched the supersonic transport into the success it became. BA built the successful SST operation from the economically bankrupt nationalised start and earned every penny of it, other airlines may have looked on enviously in the late '80s & '90s, but they had missed the boat by then.
Branson keeps needling that he'd "condsider it" or words to that effect, but the truth is nobody else could or would take it on now - it would be like trying to transplant a 200-year old oak tree into a garden allotment. Good for headline-grabbing, but BA has no duty to "give" Concorde to anyone else and nor would anyone else want it - they couldn't run it because the whole support infrastructure is so massive.
All that has happened here is that someone has noticed that all aeroplanes have a finite life, Concorde has served many more years than most others (maybe all? I don't know) and have then asked BA when is it due to retire. BA quite reasonably said "at some stage, but we don't yet know when - we'll tell you when the decision is made" and that didn't satisfy the hacks, who interpreted "sometime" as meaning gloom and failure. For heaven's sake even the Daily T. said something along the lines of "early retirment looms for Concorde" - early retirement??? Almost 30 years from introduction into service and 34 years from her first flight - "early retirement"!!!.
The capricious high cost / high revenue nature of an SST means that the commercially sensible operator will carefully monitor the latter years of the aircraft's life. That is all that is happening here - ultimately we must accept that all good things must come to an end. But not just yet, there are some years still left to serve, and even then - we bloody did it, didn't we!
Last edited by NW1; 2nd Mar 2003 at 14:45.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This notion of Concorde being old is as bizarre as suggesting we stop playing Vivaldi's Four Seasons because it first went into production nearly 300 years ago. In techonolgy terms it is as new as any supersonic transport and as a plane it is very young in its service life due to very low utilisation. It is thirsty and expensive to run but that's because it is half airliner; half spacecraft. It's flight deck is a bit 'classic' but functions as well as any glass version - just a touch more expensively.
Concorde is special for two reasons. Firstly other capitalist products can be removed and re-launched at will but Concorde is a unique product - across the whole world. Once lost it cannot be replaced.
Secondly we, the British taxpayers, forked out a shed-load of money. Someone ought to take care of that investment.
Concorde is special for two reasons. Firstly other capitalist products can be removed and re-launched at will but Concorde is a unique product - across the whole world. Once lost it cannot be replaced.
Secondly we, the British taxpayers, forked out a shed-load of money. Someone ought to take care of that investment.
Autorise a L'atterrissage
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the passion NW1. You speak with great authority and can no doubt provide full reference for your assertions!
If my view that BA should make one available for display purposes unencumbered after they have finished with it, I am sorry.
There seems to me a splendid marketing opportunity for BA to help keep one flying in existing livery. Don't you think so ?
If my view that BA should make one available for display purposes unencumbered after they have finished with it, I am sorry.
There seems to me a splendid marketing opportunity for BA to help keep one flying in existing livery. Don't you think so ?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southern england
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What effect on the "charter" trade?
How much does this affect the "charter" trade, e.g. Goodwood Travel? Does a charter "fee" contribute to the cost of keeping Concorde flying?
How much service contraction can BA make before they(GT) can no longer offer 3 night's in NY with return flight on Concorde for £4,560?
How much service contraction can BA make before they(GT) can no longer offer 3 night's in NY with return flight on Concorde for £4,560?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of nostalgia and emotion on this thread......and quite right too, as Concorde is a fantastic machine. I for one hope it keeps flying forever.
However, we need to be realistic. BA are not going to keep the machine flying out of 'goodwill' or a sense of history. Their responsibility is to their shareholders, and as soon as Concorde becomes uneconomic its flying days will be over.
Of course, any number of accountants will come up with totally different arguments as to what is 'economic'. How do you value the "PR" and "Advertising" which Concorde gives them?
Equally, further 'rudder separations' or other events (even though blown out of proportion by the press) will add more nails in the coffin as the consensus of public opinion, rightly or wrongly, adopts the view that the machine is too old.
However, we need to be realistic. BA are not going to keep the machine flying out of 'goodwill' or a sense of history. Their responsibility is to their shareholders, and as soon as Concorde becomes uneconomic its flying days will be over.
Of course, any number of accountants will come up with totally different arguments as to what is 'economic'. How do you value the "PR" and "Advertising" which Concorde gives them?
Equally, further 'rudder separations' or other events (even though blown out of proportion by the press) will add more nails in the coffin as the consensus of public opinion, rightly or wrongly, adopts the view that the machine is too old.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Birmingham, England (sometimes)
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to add a little bit of circumstantial evidence here, apparently R-R at Filton are chucking out the Olympus jigs, test kit and spares as part of the redevelopment announced this week. Now, why would they do that unless someone had tipped them as to the likelyhood of no future need ?
Perhaps a Patchway Ppruner could check this
VnV
Perhaps a Patchway Ppruner could check this
VnV
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Concorde to retire in 2007?
Several sources today( Liberation France, NTV Germany) report that Air France will retire the Concorde 2007. Details and specific dates to follow soon.
Regards
Regards
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southern england
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like October!
Man of the Marsh
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: LGW
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will be as sad as all but the cynics on this thread to see Concorde retire. It is still the one aircraft that people stop to watch when she flies over. I suppose that with the turmoil that is enveloping the industry at the moment it is inevitable that such decisions have to be made. I can only agree with those here who suggest not burning any bridges at this stage. After all, unless we're heading back to the Dark Ages, there should be an economic recovery one day in the future.
On a lighter note, I had to chuckle at the LBC Radio news this evening (17:30z) . "From October, Londoners will no longer hear Concorde's sonic boom in the skies . . . . " Excellent research there, LBC!
On a lighter note, I had to chuckle at the LBC Radio news this evening (17:30z) . "From October, Londoners will no longer hear Concorde's sonic boom in the skies . . . . " Excellent research there, LBC!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm immensely proud to have worked with Concorde during my 30+ years as a Heathrow Air Traffic Controller. I retired last November so she's beaten me, and she still goes as fast as when she started which is more than I can say for myself!
I never did get a ride in it, but we bought #1 son a "trip round the bay" for his 21st which blew his mind and which he'll remember for ever!
To all the Concorde crews I had the pleasure of working with, thanks for the fun.... especially to the Captain who slipped us a bottle of fizz one night after I gave him a "fighter" circuit.. but that was long, long ago and such things don't happen, except in dreams, do they?
I never did get a ride in it, but we bought #1 son a "trip round the bay" for his 21st which blew his mind and which he'll remember for ever!
To all the Concorde crews I had the pleasure of working with, thanks for the fun.... especially to the Captain who slipped us a bottle of fizz one night after I gave him a "fighter" circuit.. but that was long, long ago and such things don't happen, except in dreams, do they?
Paxing All Over The World
H.D. For those of us that are on the outside of the biz, could you expand on what a 'fighter' circuit is?
I realise, of course, that no machine operating into or out of LHR would ever be given a circuit that might be just a shade too tight, or too fast, for normal operations. Such instructions would never be given by dedicated professionals, however bored they might get one night. So, this is purely an academic exercise of how such things might be run in a simulator.
If you are concerned about the journos, then a PM would be fine!
Cannot resist adding that I am now awaiting arrival of my ticket for 8th August, as I was able to get one of the 1,000 seat special one-way Conc that were sold on Thursday.
I first saw the Lady when she visited South Africa for Hot and High tests and sales pitch in (I think) 1971. Now it's time.
I realise, of course, that no machine operating into or out of LHR would ever be given a circuit that might be just a shade too tight, or too fast, for normal operations. Such instructions would never be given by dedicated professionals, however bored they might get one night. So, this is purely an academic exercise of how such things might be run in a simulator.
If you are concerned about the journos, then a PM would be fine!
Cannot resist adding that I am now awaiting arrival of my ticket for 8th August, as I was able to get one of the 1,000 seat special one-way Conc that were sold on Thursday.
I first saw the Lady when she visited South Africa for Hot and High tests and sales pitch in (I think) 1971. Now it's time.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PAXboy wrote: "I realise, of course, that no machine operating into or out of LHR would ever be given a circuit that might be just a shade too tight, or too fast, for normal operations. Such instructions would never be given by dedicated professionals, however bored they might get one night. So, this is purely an academic exercise of how such things might be run in a simulator."
Of course, silly me, you must be right. But did you ever see the film The Snowman? Where the little boy dreams his snowman is really alive? When he wakes up next morning he has a scarf given to him "in his dreams". I just can't recall where I got this Champagne cork.......
Enjoy the trip; I truly envy you.
Of course, silly me, you must be right. But did you ever see the film The Snowman? Where the little boy dreams his snowman is really alive? When he wakes up next morning he has a scarf given to him "in his dreams". I just can't recall where I got this Champagne cork.......
Enjoy the trip; I truly envy you.
