View Poll Results: Do BACC have the best interests of CitiExpress at heart with their Scope Clause ??
Yes
32
15.92%
No
73
36.32%
Nope, only their own wallets!!!
96
47.76%
Voters: 201. This poll is closed
The BA Scope Clause.
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The BA Scope Clause.
We have been hearing a lot about scope regarding the subsumption of the RJ Fleet into CitiExpress.
Courses have been cancelled, and from our perspective, we are waiting for the BACC and BA management to agree with our CC and what passes currently for our management when business in the regions can start to make a return on investment.
Frankly, most of us do not believe for a minute that BACC have any interests at heart except for their own pay packet and seniority list.
We are trusting our CC to come up with a deal which will be fair to all, but it seems that evry time a deal is close, BACC move the goalposts.
I have the greatest sympathy with any BAR guy who doesn't want to go to LHR, and similarly with any CFE guy who doesn't want to move to the regions. However, on a similar thread about GB, a number of verbose and logically illiterate BA men suggest, at the end of the debate, that it is a case of 'Deal with it'.
This is going to result in a shafting of grand proportions to Brymon and Manx/BRAL, whose only 'crime' has been to be profitable enough to be snapped up by BA. (A bad day for all of us). Now, we are to apparently be grateful for what crumbs may be thrown to us by a BACC which is determined to keep us out of loss leading mainline routes, but the REAL issue is a couple of years ahead. BACC are looking at the next generation of regional aircraft, and are determined to ensure the same unprofitable structure has charge of those.
Well, we shall see. I'm not in management, but it is interesting to note the actions of The Bishop. The only thing keeping BACC afloat at the moment is the management's concern that BA pilots might actually strike. These are the same few rabble rousers who were in favour of the great successful Cathay action. Makes you think doesn't it.
Anyway, a small ballot, and, of course, invitations to comment:
Do you really believe that BACC has the best interests of CitiExpress Pilots at heart??
Courses have been cancelled, and from our perspective, we are waiting for the BACC and BA management to agree with our CC and what passes currently for our management when business in the regions can start to make a return on investment.
Frankly, most of us do not believe for a minute that BACC have any interests at heart except for their own pay packet and seniority list.
We are trusting our CC to come up with a deal which will be fair to all, but it seems that evry time a deal is close, BACC move the goalposts.
I have the greatest sympathy with any BAR guy who doesn't want to go to LHR, and similarly with any CFE guy who doesn't want to move to the regions. However, on a similar thread about GB, a number of verbose and logically illiterate BA men suggest, at the end of the debate, that it is a case of 'Deal with it'.
This is going to result in a shafting of grand proportions to Brymon and Manx/BRAL, whose only 'crime' has been to be profitable enough to be snapped up by BA. (A bad day for all of us). Now, we are to apparently be grateful for what crumbs may be thrown to us by a BACC which is determined to keep us out of loss leading mainline routes, but the REAL issue is a couple of years ahead. BACC are looking at the next generation of regional aircraft, and are determined to ensure the same unprofitable structure has charge of those.
Well, we shall see. I'm not in management, but it is interesting to note the actions of The Bishop. The only thing keeping BACC afloat at the moment is the management's concern that BA pilots might actually strike. These are the same few rabble rousers who were in favour of the great successful Cathay action. Makes you think doesn't it.
Anyway, a small ballot, and, of course, invitations to comment:
Do you really believe that BACC has the best interests of CitiExpress Pilots at heart??
Last edited by Nosferatu; 30th Aug 2002 at 10:35.
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This is a very interesting poll. However, the fact of the matter is that I am an unhappy mainline pilot (ex-CFE) who is from now until an aggreement is reached going to be operating 5/6 day rotations thru BHX/MAN on the RJ100.
My own personal view is that the BACC have an agenda which is significantly removed from that of either the pilots or management.
It's about time BACC consulted the members, hardly any of my colleagues are interested in operating this work pattern - even if we take up their offer of secondment to BHX/MAN we cannot go until SCOPE is sorted, so we can't even relocate to appease our families/partners.
I cannot for one moment think why the BACC can demand that the employees of a non-BA company be offered BA plc contracts, surely this upto the individual airlines (GB, BMed, Maersk). And for that matter, the current state of BA isn't the most attractive of airlines to work for (well at Gatwick at least).
We can only hope for a quick and amicable solution so that lives are not disrupted any more than they have to be. Pilots in LGW want to stay in LGW, pilots from the regions probably want to stay in the regions - so BALPA try to make everyone move. MAGIC.
Enough said.
F33
My own personal view is that the BACC have an agenda which is significantly removed from that of either the pilots or management.
It's about time BACC consulted the members, hardly any of my colleagues are interested in operating this work pattern - even if we take up their offer of secondment to BHX/MAN we cannot go until SCOPE is sorted, so we can't even relocate to appease our families/partners.
I cannot for one moment think why the BACC can demand that the employees of a non-BA company be offered BA plc contracts, surely this upto the individual airlines (GB, BMed, Maersk). And for that matter, the current state of BA isn't the most attractive of airlines to work for (well at Gatwick at least).
We can only hope for a quick and amicable solution so that lives are not disrupted any more than they have to be. Pilots in LGW want to stay in LGW, pilots from the regions probably want to stay in the regions - so BALPA try to make everyone move. MAGIC.
Enough said.
F33
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A good follow up to the GB pilots topic. Although some of the mainline pilots were implying that any BACX input was irrelevant to that thread they were being disingenuous. The inclusion of GB pilots onto the MAINLINE seniority list has everything to do with our own position regarding scope which is becoming a bigger stitch up all the while.
It is a foregone conclusion that the BA CC is just after protecting it's pilots own position. I would also question what BALPA as an organisation are going to do. Our BACX CC is fighting our corner as hard as they can, but I don't see what BALPA as an organisation would do to help us should it come to pass that BACX pilots are significantly disadvantaged by the scope agreement. After all we are a much smaller body of pilots than BA BALPA, paid less, and therefore would represent less of a financial loss if we were to award ourselves a 1% payrise. It must be very frustrating for our CC.
The BAR pilots who will be coming on secondment will be laughing all the way to the bank. If the figure of £1000 per month is true then that represents 20% over and above a jet captain's salary in BACX. As an aside it would be interesting to see if the routes are initially profitable while being operated by the CFE / BAR pilots on the BACX costbase.
It is a foregone conclusion that the BA CC is just after protecting it's pilots own position. I would also question what BALPA as an organisation are going to do. Our BACX CC is fighting our corner as hard as they can, but I don't see what BALPA as an organisation would do to help us should it come to pass that BACX pilots are significantly disadvantaged by the scope agreement. After all we are a much smaller body of pilots than BA BALPA, paid less, and therefore would represent less of a financial loss if we were to award ourselves a 1% payrise. It must be very frustrating for our CC.
The BAR pilots who will be coming on secondment will be laughing all the way to the bank. If the figure of £1000 per month is true then that represents 20% over and above a jet captain's salary in BACX. As an aside it would be interesting to see if the routes are initially profitable while being operated by the CFE / BAR pilots on the BACX costbase.
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Its very sad the way BACC are behaving. They are dividing their Company, causing huge antipathy to their Airline within BACE,(and 650 pilots is quite a lot!) and guaranteeing that as and when more routes and types inevitably come our way in BACE, there will be zero sympathy for their position, and certainly no assistance from us.
They see no-one's point of view, (IT, Engineering, Admin, Finance, Marketing, Commercial, HR, etc) but their own, and somehow think they can operate with impunity and do whatever, whenever to whoever they like.
A collection of Captain Canutes!
They should pay more attention to the likes of Flap33, and less trying to maintain/reinstate a world that has already moved on.
The only bright spot is that as far as even the neddies and nerds fro Waterside are concerned, CitiExpress IS the future of regional and probably eventually shorthaul within BA.
They see no-one's point of view, (IT, Engineering, Admin, Finance, Marketing, Commercial, HR, etc) but their own, and somehow think they can operate with impunity and do whatever, whenever to whoever they like.
A collection of Captain Canutes!
They should pay more attention to the likes of Flap33, and less trying to maintain/reinstate a world that has already moved on.
The only bright spot is that as far as even the neddies and nerds fro Waterside are concerned, CitiExpress IS the future of regional and probably eventually shorthaul within BA.
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Why not email people in the BACC and ask them what they are doing and why? A few facts may help clear the usual rumours / confusion.
This council seems to be a marked improvement on previous ones and much more representative of the whole pilot workforce.
Remember that BA mainline has changed enormously in recent times. Approx. one third of them are now on the post 96 'B' scale and earning a lot less than you might think.
Pickled
This council seems to be a marked improvement on previous ones and much more representative of the whole pilot workforce.
Remember that BA mainline has changed enormously in recent times. Approx. one third of them are now on the post 96 'B' scale and earning a lot less than you might think.
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I really find the attitude of you citiexpress pilots quite nauseous. You seem to almost revel in the fact that you are cheap. Surely you should be trying to increase your pay levels to the highest level you can?
The fact is that pilot pay has never been the deciding factor in whether a route or airline is profitable. Just look at what Easyjet and RyanAir are paying. Your costs pale into insignificance when you look at the leasing charges and nav/route charges not to mention fuel. So stop harping on about your cheap pay taking over the regions. You do all pilots a big disservice.
And yes I have got an axe to grind. Today I did my last 737 flight in the regions. I am being forced out because you are taking my job and the opportunities of many of my more junior colleagues. These are our routes our slots and we have worked damn hard to make them grow.
Yes scope is very important to us in BA because we do not want pilots like yourselves trying to steal more of our work by offering your services on the cheap. The only service you offer is a disservice to yourselves and you should be ashamed!!!
As for my BAR colleagues who have chosen to stay I wish them alot of luck if they are going to have to sit along guys like you with these sort of attitudes. Intersting CRM ahead!!!
NOT SO HAPPY BOY
The fact is that pilot pay has never been the deciding factor in whether a route or airline is profitable. Just look at what Easyjet and RyanAir are paying. Your costs pale into insignificance when you look at the leasing charges and nav/route charges not to mention fuel. So stop harping on about your cheap pay taking over the regions. You do all pilots a big disservice.
And yes I have got an axe to grind. Today I did my last 737 flight in the regions. I am being forced out because you are taking my job and the opportunities of many of my more junior colleagues. These are our routes our slots and we have worked damn hard to make them grow.
Yes scope is very important to us in BA because we do not want pilots like yourselves trying to steal more of our work by offering your services on the cheap. The only service you offer is a disservice to yourselves and you should be ashamed!!!
As for my BAR colleagues who have chosen to stay I wish them alot of luck if they are going to have to sit along guys like you with these sort of attitudes. Intersting CRM ahead!!!
NOT SO HAPPY BOY
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gentlemen and ladies,
you should consider SCOPE as as two way street-it will definately have advantages for those of you in BACE-you need to open your minds to the possibilities.It might help to think long term on this one.
Frankly,this thread ammounts to nothing more than scaremongering.
jumbo
you should consider SCOPE as as two way street-it will definately have advantages for those of you in BACE-you need to open your minds to the possibilities.It might help to think long term on this one.
Frankly,this thread ammounts to nothing more than scaremongering.
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Copied from my Post in another Thread;
Wow, I havent visited the RP thread for a while, mainly since the New In-house Forums provide a Platform free of wind-up merchants and managers attempting divide and rule tactics(no surely not). It is funny how this division has conveniently reared it's ugly head at a time when BALPA are getting increasingly militant and finally getting their act together with regard BA Pay Negotiations, coincedence ?
How pathetic to boast that you can do a job an get paid less for it, are you serious ? Hell I could work for free but I wouldn't want to and I certainly would hold it as an aspiration.
Scope is not about just protecting BA jobs. The future of every Pilot world-wide is under thraeat. A long-term solution stable solution is not ever going to be acheived if we start underbidding each other for jobs. There will always be someone junior/less experieneced willing to do it for less, including future autopilots. It doesn't mean it's safe however and Airline Management in their efforts to preserve their own expensive and non-productive jobs will push things down to the lowest common denominator. They would replace us all with monkeys if they thought they could get away with it.
For those who benefit this time, beware because if the line breaks down now, your turn will be next. They will either force you to take even less pay/work harder or they will find someone else in the world who will. Do not laugh at the struggles of BA Pilots just because they have been the first to feel these Global Tremours over the last decade and certainly don't wish that they fail at securing a Scope deal because that will leave you all WIDE OPEN in the future. BALPA are fighting the corner the best they can by focussing on the areas where they have the most resources to do so. If the center of the front falls what happens to the weaker flanks ???
BA's strife has had little to do with the current Pilot workforce(over 1/3rd of which on B-Scales, and the other 2/3rds earning the same in BA after decades of loyalty, as low-cost Pilot's after just a couple of years). The agressive response some here receive from implying otherwise is out of frustration that this Reality BA Pilots have had to endure being first in the firing line. Do not believe this is a BA Company Problem, all Airline's management will not stop their attack on Pilots T&C's at the collapse of BA pilots. Try to look from beyond your current uniform Colour and try to see that BA Pilots are the first to raise a stink not because we are all Inefficient Spoilt Crybabies but because we have been under threat from these issues for much longer, the very same issues that will soon work against all Pilots if we don't unite now.
We all have more in Common as Professional Flying Comrades than with any management structure no matter how caring or efficient they may be compared to BA's. BA Pilots are no less Professional or Inefficient than any other outfit's Pilots but are bearing the full force of taking off OVERWEIGHT down the back for years. Don't let them divide us Pilots. who really are the only ones who fully understand the job we do.
This is not a "BA ISOLATED PROBLEM" caused by "EXPENSIVE INEFFICIENT" Pilots(just ask any recent BA DEP's you might know personally if their Pre-conceived Pre-joining Nirvana-image about being an Overpaid Underworked BA Pilots match the Reality once in) but we are first to be attacked. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it sooner than you had wished and miss the days when BA Pilots were around to take all the FLAK !!!!!!
Wow, I havent visited the RP thread for a while, mainly since the New In-house Forums provide a Platform free of wind-up merchants and managers attempting divide and rule tactics(no surely not). It is funny how this division has conveniently reared it's ugly head at a time when BALPA are getting increasingly militant and finally getting their act together with regard BA Pay Negotiations, coincedence ?
How pathetic to boast that you can do a job an get paid less for it, are you serious ? Hell I could work for free but I wouldn't want to and I certainly would hold it as an aspiration.
Scope is not about just protecting BA jobs. The future of every Pilot world-wide is under thraeat. A long-term solution stable solution is not ever going to be acheived if we start underbidding each other for jobs. There will always be someone junior/less experieneced willing to do it for less, including future autopilots. It doesn't mean it's safe however and Airline Management in their efforts to preserve their own expensive and non-productive jobs will push things down to the lowest common denominator. They would replace us all with monkeys if they thought they could get away with it.
For those who benefit this time, beware because if the line breaks down now, your turn will be next. They will either force you to take even less pay/work harder or they will find someone else in the world who will. Do not laugh at the struggles of BA Pilots just because they have been the first to feel these Global Tremours over the last decade and certainly don't wish that they fail at securing a Scope deal because that will leave you all WIDE OPEN in the future. BALPA are fighting the corner the best they can by focussing on the areas where they have the most resources to do so. If the center of the front falls what happens to the weaker flanks ???
BA's strife has had little to do with the current Pilot workforce(over 1/3rd of which on B-Scales, and the other 2/3rds earning the same in BA after decades of loyalty, as low-cost Pilot's after just a couple of years). The agressive response some here receive from implying otherwise is out of frustration that this Reality BA Pilots have had to endure being first in the firing line. Do not believe this is a BA Company Problem, all Airline's management will not stop their attack on Pilots T&C's at the collapse of BA pilots. Try to look from beyond your current uniform Colour and try to see that BA Pilots are the first to raise a stink not because we are all Inefficient Spoilt Crybabies but because we have been under threat from these issues for much longer, the very same issues that will soon work against all Pilots if we don't unite now.
We all have more in Common as Professional Flying Comrades than with any management structure no matter how caring or efficient they may be compared to BA's. BA Pilots are no less Professional or Inefficient than any other outfit's Pilots but are bearing the full force of taking off OVERWEIGHT down the back for years. Don't let them divide us Pilots. who really are the only ones who fully understand the job we do.
This is not a "BA ISOLATED PROBLEM" caused by "EXPENSIVE INEFFICIENT" Pilots(just ask any recent BA DEP's you might know personally if their Pre-conceived Pre-joining Nirvana-image about being an Overpaid Underworked BA Pilots match the Reality once in) but we are first to be attacked. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it sooner than you had wished and miss the days when BA Pilots were around to take all the FLAK !!!!!!
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JUMBODRIVER - !!
Jumbodriver - clearly you are not in the loop with ref the scope clause as proposed by your own Company Council if you think even vaguely that it is a 'two way street'. If it were indeed that, I think we would be supporting you to the hilt. It is a rip off document, as usual, designed to ensure that BA mainline guys can come to us to work after they retire (thus pinching our junior guys career opportunities), it will not allow any but our 146 Guys into even a potential mainline job, but it enshrines the 'right' of BAR guys to come and sit next to us, but being paid a lot more.
Two way street - yeah, sure.
Happy boy - well, thats one BA pilot I won't need to get to know anyway! Bear in mind no-one is taking your job, it has just moved. Remember that famous BA guy turned politician "Get on your bike, and go to where the jobs are!" or something like that. If you want to come and work with us on the same terms, we'd be delighted to meet you. Otherwise, you can take your platinum rings, and spin on them!
Two way street - yeah, sure.
Happy boy - well, thats one BA pilot I won't need to get to know anyway! Bear in mind no-one is taking your job, it has just moved. Remember that famous BA guy turned politician "Get on your bike, and go to where the jobs are!" or something like that. If you want to come and work with us on the same terms, we'd be delighted to meet you. Otherwise, you can take your platinum rings, and spin on them!
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Interesting to see what some of you think. I can only talk about BHX because I do not know enough about MAN
BAR BHX actually has made reasonable profits in the past and the current flight crew agreement has led to us probably being the most effecient and flexible pilots in BA. It is a real pitty that the success of the BHX operation has been blown apart for whatever reason you feel like beliving.
It is not a decision at pilot level that has effectively ended the current setup for us in the regions and we are all very very unhappy about it. I do not belive anyone from any company should hold a grudge for individuals, indeed fellow professionals, that have decided to stay. I would guess that most that have decided to stay will have accepted a reduction from the current "lifestyle" because they are motivated more about staying in the midlands for various, mainly family, reasons than chase the so called goodies that may be generated after a long commute down to London.
As for moaners and groaners. Someone will always have a better hand than you, but remember someone will always have less. Do we want to reduce everyone to the lowest level in order to "be fair" or should we try and improve our bit. In our instance I belive we should congratulate both management and Balpa for delivering a practical solution to the problem whist most other areas are still slogging it out.
As I have always maintained on these forums and in discussion, the overall mission from our individual BALPA representatives should be to move towards improving everyones pay, terms and conditions. If your companies reps haven't achieved what you feel is fair then its up to you to do something about it within the framework of your organisation, rather than look at others with green eyed envy.
BAR BHX actually has made reasonable profits in the past and the current flight crew agreement has led to us probably being the most effecient and flexible pilots in BA. It is a real pitty that the success of the BHX operation has been blown apart for whatever reason you feel like beliving.
It is not a decision at pilot level that has effectively ended the current setup for us in the regions and we are all very very unhappy about it. I do not belive anyone from any company should hold a grudge for individuals, indeed fellow professionals, that have decided to stay. I would guess that most that have decided to stay will have accepted a reduction from the current "lifestyle" because they are motivated more about staying in the midlands for various, mainly family, reasons than chase the so called goodies that may be generated after a long commute down to London.
As for moaners and groaners. Someone will always have a better hand than you, but remember someone will always have less. Do we want to reduce everyone to the lowest level in order to "be fair" or should we try and improve our bit. In our instance I belive we should congratulate both management and Balpa for delivering a practical solution to the problem whist most other areas are still slogging it out.
As I have always maintained on these forums and in discussion, the overall mission from our individual BALPA representatives should be to move towards improving everyones pay, terms and conditions. If your companies reps haven't achieved what you feel is fair then its up to you to do something about it within the framework of your organisation, rather than look at others with green eyed envy.
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Totally agree with all of that except for the:
'management and BALPA for delivering a practical solution' bit.
Even management have in fact tried to deal with a solution, but have been rebuffed time and again by Rob Hall and his cohorts.
A solution like this usually means BOHICA.
(BEND OVER, HERE IT COMES AGAIN! This is a tool (sic) well known by BACC!)
'management and BALPA for delivering a practical solution' bit.
Even management have in fact tried to deal with a solution, but have been rebuffed time and again by Rob Hall and his cohorts.
A solution like this usually means BOHICA.
(BEND OVER, HERE IT COMES AGAIN! This is a tool (sic) well known by BACC!)
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Little Prince - a shame to see your back spouting your usual brand of uninformed rubbish. Please explain how a scope deal allows BA pilots to fly for you after retiring. At 55 our pilots are gone, out of BA, no more, contract ended, pension paid. They are no longer BA pilots, so they don't remain on the BA seniority list and they have no right of transfer to any flying job anywhere. If you're aggrieved about your company hiring BA retirees then take it up with your management, it's got nothing to do with BA pilots or BALPA.
As for the 'right'of BAR guys to come and sit next to you, well who gave you a 'right' to suddenly inherit 10 mainline RJs, or a variety of BAR routes? You don't have a 'right' to them, they've just been gifted to you by BA management. Thats right, by BA management, not your management. The condition of the deal is that people who want to stay in the regions can do so without losing income. If you don't like the deal that gives you RJs that you wouldn't otherwise have had then don't fly them. Not a tough choice, is it? Why should you begrudge our guys getting paid a reasonable wage, after all most BACE posters on this site seem to believe that they're are better because they're cheaper.
As for the 'right'of BAR guys to come and sit next to you, well who gave you a 'right' to suddenly inherit 10 mainline RJs, or a variety of BAR routes? You don't have a 'right' to them, they've just been gifted to you by BA management. Thats right, by BA management, not your management. The condition of the deal is that people who want to stay in the regions can do so without losing income. If you don't like the deal that gives you RJs that you wouldn't otherwise have had then don't fly them. Not a tough choice, is it? Why should you begrudge our guys getting paid a reasonable wage, after all most BACE posters on this site seem to believe that they're are better because they're cheaper.
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my my, you really should try reading your own literature. Either Rob and Kevin don't talk to you about anything, or you are nearly as good as them at posting misleading claptrap!!!
Don't make us laugh, you can see from the poll just how many people believe you!
Don't make us laugh, you can see from the poll just how many people believe you!
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I haven't bothered to view the poll results because their isn't an option to vote for:
Are BACE pilots only interested in lining their own pockets with RJ flying at the expense of the regional jobs of BA pilots.
I hope the poll reflects the opinion that the BACC are protecting the interests of the BA pilots, because thats why I voted for them. If they were looking after you at the expense of my position I'd vote them out.
Are BACE pilots only interested in lining their own pockets with RJ flying at the expense of the regional jobs of BA pilots.
I hope the poll reflects the opinion that the BACC are protecting the interests of the BA pilots, because thats why I voted for them. If they were looking after you at the expense of my position I'd vote them out.
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Just want to clarify "Balpa and management achieving a practical solution."
I am refering to achieving an arrangement that allows some of us to stay at BHX or MAN.
I am not reffering to the decision to effectively close the base's. Considering that BAR pilots delivered a 10% overall improvement in effciency a few years ago on the basis that mainline flying in the regions would be secured it is a very very sore point whats happened; and a reminder to everyone in every company that nothing is safe.
"If you work and do your best you'll get stitched up like all the rest!!!!!"
So before having a bash at BA pilots staying in the regions just view the big picture and remember that there are a lot of very unhappy pilots leaving for LHR.
Airrage makes a very good point. For those that still do not understand just consider; If Beckham, owen etc had their pay cut to £10000 per week, and had to play 100 matches per year, how do you think things would change for those in the other divisions?????????????
I am refering to achieving an arrangement that allows some of us to stay at BHX or MAN.
I am not reffering to the decision to effectively close the base's. Considering that BAR pilots delivered a 10% overall improvement in effciency a few years ago on the basis that mainline flying in the regions would be secured it is a very very sore point whats happened; and a reminder to everyone in every company that nothing is safe.
"If you work and do your best you'll get stitched up like all the rest!!!!!"
So before having a bash at BA pilots staying in the regions just view the big picture and remember that there are a lot of very unhappy pilots leaving for LHR.
Airrage makes a very good point. For those that still do not understand just consider; If Beckham, owen etc had their pay cut to £10000 per week, and had to play 100 matches per year, how do you think things would change for those in the other divisions?????????????
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Wow, the ability of BA pilots to shoot themselves in the feet should never be underestimated.
Let me get this right, now you are comparing yourselves to the most over-rated, over-paid, precious, petulant people in their particular 'industry'. People who, when it comes down to it, ultimately cannot deliver the goods for which they are paid, and who their manager himself admits are suffering from underperformance brought on by over-remuneration. This over -remuneration is also the prime cause of most of their industry heading for severe financial problems this very year, (although one must, again with an eerie clarity, admit this is down to a foolish management decision!).
I DO fancy your wife though, best legs in the business!
Seriously chaps, we shouldn't fall out. I sympathise most enormously with anyone who has to move because of yet another management 'bright idea'. But even here, we know what the removals package is with mainline. Our blokes in Abz, Bhs, Sou, Brs, Cdf etc are not getting anything like that from THEIR enforced moves, so you can understand why some of us don't actually feel the playing field is level. Coupled with that, we have one of your chaps from management by the initials TDLF who is trying to screw our Ts and Cs even further down, while telling us he is doing us a favour and IMPROVING things. Some of us have worked for the real giant bas###ds of the Industry, but we've never come across this sort of thing before. From our perspective then, we are being hammered both by BA management and BACC. Kind of makes a chap paranoid. And for the record, someone earlier referred to YOUR management, and OUR management. De facto as well as De Iure, your management (unfortunately) IS our management. It makes me sick to think management are better than pilots at anything, but at least they have a kind of loyalty to each other.
The way to avoid being stitched up is to try and act in concert. We KNOW this is not what BACC is trying to do, because they are telling our CC one thing, but discussing a quite different agenda with Mainline.
And for Mr Solo, I think my colleague was referring to the well known agenda to allow mainline retirees to join BACEX as Captains at age 55 should they wish to. So you see, we are getting it at both ends at once. Cadets in the bottom, and mainline skippers in the top. BACC have another agenda alright, and it is no-one's interest but their own.
Let me get this right, now you are comparing yourselves to the most over-rated, over-paid, precious, petulant people in their particular 'industry'. People who, when it comes down to it, ultimately cannot deliver the goods for which they are paid, and who their manager himself admits are suffering from underperformance brought on by over-remuneration. This over -remuneration is also the prime cause of most of their industry heading for severe financial problems this very year, (although one must, again with an eerie clarity, admit this is down to a foolish management decision!).
I DO fancy your wife though, best legs in the business!
Seriously chaps, we shouldn't fall out. I sympathise most enormously with anyone who has to move because of yet another management 'bright idea'. But even here, we know what the removals package is with mainline. Our blokes in Abz, Bhs, Sou, Brs, Cdf etc are not getting anything like that from THEIR enforced moves, so you can understand why some of us don't actually feel the playing field is level. Coupled with that, we have one of your chaps from management by the initials TDLF who is trying to screw our Ts and Cs even further down, while telling us he is doing us a favour and IMPROVING things. Some of us have worked for the real giant bas###ds of the Industry, but we've never come across this sort of thing before. From our perspective then, we are being hammered both by BA management and BACC. Kind of makes a chap paranoid. And for the record, someone earlier referred to YOUR management, and OUR management. De facto as well as De Iure, your management (unfortunately) IS our management. It makes me sick to think management are better than pilots at anything, but at least they have a kind of loyalty to each other.
The way to avoid being stitched up is to try and act in concert. We KNOW this is not what BACC is trying to do, because they are telling our CC one thing, but discussing a quite different agenda with Mainline.
And for Mr Solo, I think my colleague was referring to the well known agenda to allow mainline retirees to join BACEX as Captains at age 55 should they wish to. So you see, we are getting it at both ends at once. Cadets in the bottom, and mainline skippers in the top. BACC have another agenda alright, and it is no-one's interest but their own.
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Can someone from one of the non-BA outfits explain why the *BRITISH AIRWAYS* Company Council should be fighting your corner? They fight for BA pilots - you've got you're own CCs to fight for you.
They're not the 'Anyone Who Flys in BA Colours' Company Council.
They're not the 'Anyone Who Flys in BA Colours' Company Council.
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Regrettably, almost true. They are in fact the:
"Screw anyone who isn't Mainline" Company Council.
I applaud their fighting for BA pilots, even if their actions are reminiscent of A. Scargill.
Where I fall out with them, and have serious reservations about the whole BALPA setup' is their capability, and indeed, announced intention, to ride roughshod over whoever it takes to get what they want. Bring their own Company down - fine, if that's what they want, but trying to disadvantage US - well let's just wait and see what happens next.
"Screw anyone who isn't Mainline" Company Council.
I applaud their fighting for BA pilots, even if their actions are reminiscent of A. Scargill.
Where I fall out with them, and have serious reservations about the whole BALPA setup' is their capability, and indeed, announced intention, to ride roughshod over whoever it takes to get what they want. Bring their own Company down - fine, if that's what they want, but trying to disadvantage US - well let's just wait and see what happens next.