BA Pilot ATC Incident at DUB
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Fine, but I am with captplaystation , what, exactly, is their dog in this fight ? getting "Nigel" sacked ? getting off on revealing some "scoop" to the world about human beings inabilities to communicate/interact ? ( man/woman. . .Oh there's a surprise to start with FFS ? )
Me, I don't get it, but that is me.
Been moved (coupla times ) best shut it before it putrifies.
Me, I don't get it, but that is me.
Been moved (coupla times ) best shut it before it putrifies.
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Wow, PPP, you're brave to use that word in this day and age. And the word bustard will probably be extinct before the bird. This was getting nasty though. There's no need. We're all people and you never know what the other guy or gal has going on. Is gal sexist and demeaning? Doh!
Paxing All Over The World
If for nothing else EVERY airline CEO and all their staff (including the flight crew) needs to learn that somone is probably recording what you say/do and may post it where it can be uncomfortable. Best precaution is to assume that they are.
I know that the flight deck is meant to be your 'office' but it links to the outside world and the outside world sees no reason to be restricted. If does not matter that it's against the rules or against SOPs or against your view of life - it is the way things are in 2015.
I know that the flight deck is meant to be your 'office' but it links to the outside world and the outside world sees no reason to be restricted. If does not matter that it's against the rules or against SOPs or against your view of life - it is the way things are in 2015.
Some pilots are arrogant and so are some air traffic controller. In my longish career I have occasionally encountered one or either; this is the result of 'both'. Having said that: the phrase " fully ready" is irritating - you are either ready or not. You should not line up if the cabin is not secure; also, hectoring ATC does not help. Be professional peeps.
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Imagine If we All lined up when it suited us...!
Dublin ATC were only doing their job here, the Flight Crew were not doing their by stalling the process for Line up. Imagine if all pilots around the world used this same bad habit........? The problem with this Bad Habit is that they have done it before and got away with it, this time it has been "Highlighted".
Wether you like the ATC's tone or not is your own option, dont confuse the topic here, ATC were using assertive communication, clearly the F/O struggled with his "Stalling RT Work" whilst lining up, the Captain felt the need to intervene, this only CONFIRMS that they were "NOT READY".......!
Wether you like the ATC's tone or not is your own option, dont confuse the topic here, ATC were using assertive communication, clearly the F/O struggled with his "Stalling RT Work" whilst lining up, the Captain felt the need to intervene, this only CONFIRMS that they were "NOT READY".......!
Waiting for the numbers, is waiting for the ACARS loadsheet? Why do BA have a large issue here when say EZY for example, do not.
prefer our system of receiving an sms, usually well before the last pax has boarded
Even after Land side Check-in closes at STD -45 you don't know your "final". As a Long Hauler it's not uncommon for the Turnaround Manager ( note the terminology) to tell me something like: "we're closing the doors at STD - 3, in 5 minutes, we've still got 10-15 running, they're late inbound from XXX or YYY, we'd like them to make it since your's is the last flight to ZZZ today. We'll leave the bulk hold open as long as possible but they might be with hand baggage only, the headcount will be in the final figures". Genuinely close the flight at say -45, -30, and you've lost the flexibility to do that.
I appreciate other long haul operators may do it differently but to be fair on many days even given the above the final figures are running off the printer just as the tug is unhooking...you are more likely left waiting for "the cabin". I'd agree at the outstations "the figures" can be more problematic - IMHO the problem there is often down to poor communications with Centralised Load Control - a problem money could probably fix..
BTW have we ever established "final figures" were the cause of the DUB fracas
Last edited by wiggy; 5th Jan 2015 at 10:52.
He was asked by the ground controller if he eould be fully ready when he reached the holding point to which he replied that he would be subject to the cabin secure report being received.
There was no hold up for final figures it's in Live ATC link posted above
There was no hold up for final figures it's in Live ATC link posted above
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Surely the main issue here, ignoring 'why and how', is that the crew refused an ATC instruction 3 times. This is not acceptable. There were no 'safety issues' which would have been raised by obeying a lawful command. There was no justification for disobeying.
Quote from the ?'transcript'?
"07:34 ATC: "...except when I instruct you THREE times to vacate because there is traffic behind you".
Quote from the ?'transcript'?
"07:34 ATC: "...except when I instruct you THREE times to vacate because there is traffic behind you".
There were no 'safety issues' which would have been raised by obeying a lawful command. There was no justification for disobeying.
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"we know that how?"
10/10 for loyally defending the indefensible, wiggy, but
a) Was any 'safety issue' raised by the crew with ATC before line-up?
b) Did the crew respond 'unable' to the order?
c) Did the a/c subsequently enter the runway and take off without an emergency?
I grant you the cheeseboard may well have been jamming the throttles.
I am pushed to think of a 'safety issue' that prevents you from taxying and prevents you from communicating it to ATC. I think the rest of the world would probably agree.
10/10 for loyally defending the indefensible, wiggy, but
a) Was any 'safety issue' raised by the crew with ATC before line-up?
b) Did the crew respond 'unable' to the order?
c) Did the a/c subsequently enter the runway and take off without an emergency?
I grant you the cheeseboard may well have been jamming the throttles.
I am pushed to think of a 'safety issue' that prevents you from taxying and prevents you from communicating it to ATC. I think the rest of the world would probably agree.
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Until we know the exact circumstances you/we know that how?
Odd course of action, but "nowt so queer as folk"...
I grant you the cheeseboard may well have been jamming the throttles.
more assumptions, more stereotyping, the cheese trays went years ago......
You're right, I might well be defending the indefensible, I certainly wouldn't do that knowingly. Then again without knowing the full circumstances who knows whether they could have immediately safely vacated or not?
Last edited by wiggy; 5th Jan 2015 at 12:52.
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They were instructed by an ATCO 3 times to vacate, they did not comply.
They did not mention a safety issue as a reason for non compliance, if there was one they would and should have mentioned it. They did not. Therefore what reason is there for non-compliance other than..... Arrogance? Ignorance? Poor airmanship?
Jury is out
They did not mention a safety issue as a reason for non compliance, if there was one they would and should have mentioned it. They did not. Therefore what reason is there for non-compliance other than..... Arrogance? Ignorance? Poor airmanship?
Jury is out
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They were instructed by an ATCO 3 times to vacate, they did not comply.
For the ATCOs;
Is it acceptable to issue a 16 second admonishment while the aircraft is lining up for take-off? How would you feel if a pilot did the same when you were about to make a critical transmission?
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No strictly true. The first two times they were at the holding point for 28 (at 00.20 and 00.28). Surely you cannot refuse to vacate a runway that you haven't entered.
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No strictly true. The first two times they were at the holding point for 28 (at 00.20 and 00.28). Surely you cannot refuse to vacate a runway that you haven't entered.
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On the Airbus, which I presume this is, you can be READY but not have completed the checks.
We do not and can not complete said checks until line up clearance is received.
If the controller kept on talking over them, it would have been hard to complete although it does seem like it took a little too long.
We do not and can not complete said checks until line up clearance is received.
If the controller kept on talking over them, it would have been hard to complete although it does seem like it took a little too long.
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They were instructed to enter 28
The aircraft was at the holding point. It was not interfering with the safe operation of the runway, purely causing a slight delay to the following aircraft. How do we know whether that aircraft was fully ready?
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Things must have changed. I always believed that a taxi clearance or line up clearance was just that...a clearance. It was up to the captain to decide whether it is safe to do so. Can ATC also*order*a pilot to take off. If so, do they accept responsibility for any incident? I accept the fact that ATC can instruct an aircraft to vacate an active runway but the concept that they can order an aircraft to line up is new to me. How times change!
The aircraft was at the holding point. It was not interfering with the safe operation of the runway, purely causing a slight delay to the following aircraft. How do we know whether that aircraft was fully ready?
The aircraft was at the holding point. It was not interfering with the safe operation of the runway, purely causing a slight delay to the following aircraft. How do we know whether that aircraft was fully ready?
She ordered him to enter 28 and vacate it, NOT line up and wait. It was an order, not a clearance. She only cleared him to line up and wait after he said "we are actually now fully ready" (when they still weren't).
He was holding up traffic, for almost FOUR minutes. There was traffic behind.
And he SAID he was fully ready but in fact he wasn't because he was still doing checks, on the phone, etc. He told a porky and chanced his arm. That's how we know he wasn't fully ready.