BA 747 divert to Irkutsk after nav system fails
Unlike Airbus aircraft, IIRC there is no design life limit on Boeing aircraft, so does it really matter how old the airframe is? As long as its looked after and maintained IAW its AMP and EASA regulations, that's fine isn't it?
And to compare it to Ryanair... please! A BA 747 would operate around 600 cycles a year? Whereas a FR 738 is thrashed up to approx 1800-2000 cycles per year, over a 5 year period before they sell them on.
There are still A300s in operation from the 1970s! The vast majority of components are replaced during the life of the airframe, so in essence its a new aircraft anyway. And the more safety critical components are 'lifed' and replaced or O/H after a certain number of hours/cycles.
And to compare it to Ryanair... please! A BA 747 would operate around 600 cycles a year? Whereas a FR 738 is thrashed up to approx 1800-2000 cycles per year, over a 5 year period before they sell them on.
There are still A300s in operation from the 1970s! The vast majority of components are replaced during the life of the airframe, so in essence its a new aircraft anyway. And the more safety critical components are 'lifed' and replaced or O/H after a certain number of hours/cycles.
The vast majority of components are replaced during the life of the airframe, so in essence its a new aircraft anyway.
But your point is a valid one. When airlines retire aircraft it's normally because they have become too expensive to operate (fuel burn, maintenance, etc) compared to what else is available, not because they have started to fall out of the sky.
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Old at 17? The Vickers VC 10 has just retired after nearly half a century of service! Yes I know much of its service has not been comparable with daily airline service, but still an impressive innings to show how long a well engineered plane can last.
Monarch has 4 A300-600R still in service (absolute workhorse) since 1990,
and never really played up that much.
also some 757 flying around still with a few holiday airlines are late 1980's vintage
BA's 747-136 PW powered started life in the very early 70's and went on for well over 20 years, until late 1999 with BA!
the Roller powered -236 series didn't have such a BA long life in comparison.
and never really played up that much.
also some 757 flying around still with a few holiday airlines are late 1980's vintage
BA's 747-136 PW powered started life in the very early 70's and went on for well over 20 years, until late 1999 with BA!
the Roller powered -236 series didn't have such a BA long life in comparison.
Last edited by rog747; 29th Aug 2013 at 08:42.
Hmmmmm.... quick refresher required on use of compass, maps and ded reckoning.
p.s. Edit to note that you are the first person I've seen use the DR term correctly and not call it 'dead reckoning'
Hire cars are restricted to 15000 miles.
Now some hire companies buy cars and run them up to 50k miles. Y'all check those tyres
Last edited by Basil; 30th Aug 2013 at 22:50.
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Monarch has THREE A300-600R in service. One went to the graveyard in Tupelo Ms last November, followed a few days later by a 1992-build A320. All three remaining A300s are due to be withdrawn by next March, along with two of the older A320s.
ah thanks for the update...i knew their time was close for withdrawal...
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Originally Posted by Ye Olde Pilot:8017463
Eddie Stobart does not operate 17 year old trucks
Way back when, the Boeing design life was 20 years/60,000 hours/30,000 cycles. I'm pretty sure it's higher now, but I don't know the specifics.
That being said, Boeing is on record as saying that "with proper maintenance" their airplanes can be flown indefinitely.
In the aftermath of the Aloha 737 "Convertible" (when the upper half of the forward fuselage ripped off in flight) the FAA developed new 'aging airplane' requirements - basically additional inspections and such that were needed on older airframes. Boeing has supported the development of these requirements (I presume brand A has done the same).
There are a number of (relatively) low cycle 767 and 747 aircraft out there that are north of 100k hours. While most of the high time 747s are freighters (i.e. freighter conversions), most of the high time 767s are still passenger versions. I've heard that the operators really like the 767 for long routes thin routes - easy to fill and low maintenance.
A few years back I had to do a flight test on a BA 747-400 out of the BA maintenance base in Wales. Word was that the airplane in question was headed to the desert for storage as soon as we were done with it (it was one of their early -400s). Wondering around the airplane, I noticed that coach was, well, coach. Business was damn nice, but First Class stunk - I considered Business to be much better than First.
Ditto - not only is a "new" s/w problem unlikely on an aircraft that was certified 24 years ago, equipment cooling has minimal s/w involvement.
That being said, Boeing is on record as saying that "with proper maintenance" their airplanes can be flown indefinitely.
In the aftermath of the Aloha 737 "Convertible" (when the upper half of the forward fuselage ripped off in flight) the FAA developed new 'aging airplane' requirements - basically additional inspections and such that were needed on older airframes. Boeing has supported the development of these requirements (I presume brand A has done the same).
There are a number of (relatively) low cycle 767 and 747 aircraft out there that are north of 100k hours. While most of the high time 747s are freighters (i.e. freighter conversions), most of the high time 767s are still passenger versions. I've heard that the operators really like the 767 for long routes thin routes - easy to fill and low maintenance.
A few years back I had to do a flight test on a BA 747-400 out of the BA maintenance base in Wales. Word was that the airplane in question was headed to the desert for storage as soon as we were done with it (it was one of their early -400s). Wondering around the airplane, I noticed that coach was, well, coach. Business was damn nice, but First Class stunk - I considered Business to be much better than First.
Hardware problem much more likely..
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That being said, Boeing is on record as saying that "with proper maintenance" their airplanes can be flown indefinitely.
dead reckoning
@Basil
I had always used "dead reckoning" - so I looked it up.
The Oxford English Dictionary has never heard of ded reckoning or ded-reckoning but has an entry for dead reckoning.
The origin of the phrase is not known.
World Wide Words: Dead reckoning has one explanation of the origin of "ded".
I'll be staying dead.
p.s. Edit to note that you are the first person I've seen use the DR term correctly and not call it 'dead reckoning'
The Oxford English Dictionary has never heard of ded reckoning or ded-reckoning but has an entry for dead reckoning.
The origin of the phrase is not known.
World Wide Words: Dead reckoning has one explanation of the origin of "ded".
I'll be staying dead.
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p.s. Edit to note that you are the first person I've seen use the DR term correctly and not call it 'dead reckoning'
Some of the old skills sometimes come in handy. I remember reading an article in a very old The Log about the exploits of a BA B747-200 skipper. If I remember correctly they were over the Pacific and picked up a yacht radio call on 121.5. The yacht skipper was lost. The BA skipper, who must have come off the old B707 fleet and even before, was navigator qualified: sextant and all that good old fart stuff. He asked the yachty some pertinent questions about start point, time of trip, planned route, guesstimate of location, sun direction & angle etc. He calculated a likely grid position and gave a steer to nearest landfall. I believe it worked. You'll appreciate the memory is very dusty, but DR with a few added tit bits can work wonders.
Francis Chichister did something clever on his Tiger Moth trip across the Tasman Sea. First solo crossing with a very light fuel load for the trip. Could not afford to get lost. He had no wind information in those days, just a guess. He pre-calculated some astro fix readings and set off on a track which he believed would take him either left or right of target ( I can't remember which he decided to opt for.) That way he knew which way to turn once time was up. After an allotted time he took a sun reading and plotted actual position; compared it to pre-planned position and thus calculated the wind. He could then re-plot his next sector and repeat. He made it very accurately. An epic piece of flying and navigating. DR is alive and well but perhaps not best suited to B747's over perhaps hostile territory.
Some of the old skills sometimes come in handy. I remember reading an article in a very old The Log about the exploits of a BA B747-200 skipper. If I remember correctly they were over the Pacific and picked up a yacht radio call on 121.5. The yacht skipper was lost. The BA skipper, who must have come off the old B707 fleet and even before, was navigator qualified: sextant and all that good old fart stuff. He asked the yachty some pertinent questions about start point, time of trip, planned route, guesstimate of location, sun direction & angle etc. He calculated a likely grid position and gave a steer to nearest landfall. I believe it worked. You'll appreciate the memory is very dusty, but DR with a few added tit bits can work wonders.
Francis Chichister did something clever on his Tiger Moth trip across the Tasman Sea. First solo crossing with a very light fuel load for the trip. Could not afford to get lost. He had no wind information in those days, just a guess. He pre-calculated some astro fix readings and set off on a track which he believed would take him either left or right of target ( I can't remember which he decided to opt for.) That way he knew which way to turn once time was up. After an allotted time he took a sun reading and plotted actual position; compared it to pre-planned position and thus calculated the wind. He could then re-plot his next sector and repeat. He made it very accurately. An epic piece of flying and navigating. DR is alive and well but perhaps not best suited to B747's over perhaps hostile territory.
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A Flight Navigator was required for any flight of 1000 nm over water or 1500nm over land, or more and must have a sextant, a drift sight and some means of checking the compass. A F/N licence was required for a Commercial Airship Licence. ( Why? I don't know !) That was in the early 1950s.
Francis Chichester's flight and his chart were published in " The Lonely Sea and the Sky" and were taught later as Astro Homing to would be Navigators.
'
He wrote a paper for the first issue of the Journal of the Institute of Navigation ( not yet Royal) called " Is Met really necessary". He suggested that a Navigator should be able to work out the pressure distribution for his flight from his own observed W/Vs.
Astro was much easier with HO249 or ANT pre-computed tables. I never tried spheroidal trigonometry in flight. But I was able to get a few Captains to take some star shots and plot them for themselves for the first time. ( I cautioned them with the story of G-ALDN, the Hermes in the desert.)
LT
Francis Chichester's flight and his chart were published in " The Lonely Sea and the Sky" and were taught later as Astro Homing to would be Navigators.
'
He wrote a paper for the first issue of the Journal of the Institute of Navigation ( not yet Royal) called " Is Met really necessary". He suggested that a Navigator should be able to work out the pressure distribution for his flight from his own observed W/Vs.
Astro was much easier with HO249 or ANT pre-computed tables. I never tried spheroidal trigonometry in flight. But I was able to get a few Captains to take some star shots and plot them for themselves for the first time. ( I cautioned them with the story of G-ALDN, the Hermes in the desert.)
LT
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Lonely Sea & Sky is a wonderful read. I obtained it in mid-60's. Inspirational. I know very little of astronomy and all the twinkling names. Never did astro nag, but now I see the newbies with their iphones pointed at the sky and marvel that they now know the names of the heavens. But do they know the stories behind the names, or is that for wikipedia to tell them. How much you could learn flogging across the world behind IRS/GPS with so much free time, until it all goes tits up as with BA 747's. Doesn't the iphone have a "home James" app?
How much you could learn flogging across the world behind IRS/GPS with so much free time, until it all goes tits up as with BA 747's. Doesn't the iphone have a "home James" app?
