Good BA advice
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18
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From: Planet Earth
this message is in two parts,. .firstly with regards to flyblue i quote;. ." i object on the right for a professional to scrutinize another professionals salary".. .I hope when you use the word professional you are not talking about yourself, because the majority of F/A i have had the displeasure to work with have been complete f**kwits, and once again you sound like one of those. in the aviation world a professional is someone who has had the relevant training and qualifications to do the job they are in. no offence ,but 6 weeks training doesnt make you an professional. pilots take about 18 months plus to get in their relevant positions, and they operate multi million pounds worth of equipment. an engineer takes 3 years, and fixes those bits of equipment that cost million of pounds. a trolley dolly takes 6 weeks and operates a bev maker, are you catching my drift yet. try not to put your self in the same class.
secondly with regards to monitz suter i quote;. ."the value of a truly professional CSD is worth vastly more to me than my first officer". .my friend you have a problem. if you consider any body back in the cabin to be of more value to you , you need some councilling. being a captain im sure you are aware that the F/O does the majority of work on the flight deck, so when that next inflight emergency occurs you make sure you bring the CSD to the front of the plane and get him or her to fly it, ignorance is bliss eh monitz. FOOL
. . <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
secondly with regards to monitz suter i quote;. ."the value of a truly professional CSD is worth vastly more to me than my first officer". .my friend you have a problem. if you consider any body back in the cabin to be of more value to you , you need some councilling. being a captain im sure you are aware that the F/O does the majority of work on the flight deck, so when that next inflight emergency occurs you make sure you bring the CSD to the front of the plane and get him or her to fly it, ignorance is bliss eh monitz. FOOL
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,261
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From: Europe
Geezer, sorry but I really don't feel like wasting more time answering to someone who doesn't even have the basics. . .If in your company you have trolly dolly trained in 6 weeks and not Flight Attendants, I suggest you move into a serious airline, provided you have the requirements of course (of which I doubt, or at least it is your CRM you didn't work on well enough)
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18
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From: Planet Earth
Very sorry if i offended you with the comment of trolley dolly, i meant FLIGHT ATTENDANT, very easy mistake to make. . .After listening to some of the past comments laid down by you and your colleagues, im afraid you seem to put yourselves up on this pedestal , and i cant really understand why.. .Everybody plays a role in this but by the way you talk if it werent for the likes of yourselves how could we possibly run an airline.. .With regards to training i stated that you had to go through about 6 weeks of training, please do correct me if im wrong. . .My job envolves fixing planes , my initial training takes 3 years because it is such a specialized job, once this time period is up i am considered an engineer and the industry will then issue approvals on the strength of qualifications and training that i complete.. .The irony is, when you look at the likes of myself and F/O's, some how the industry has the nerve to pay a purser or CSD (whatever your called) a considerable amount more money to yourselves rather than the people that make the effort to get off their arses and gain these qualifications. if id realised i could earn some of the sums of money you are earning i would never have bothered with college, apprenticeship,licences, etc, i would have gone straight to the airlines and asked for a job serving people tea and coffee.. .it aint rocket science if you know what i mean.. .very easy to replace cabin crew, not so easy to replace engineers and flight crew, you should remember that. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
it is the people like you and monitz suter that dont help the airlines and their image, you need to climb out of your ivory tower and appreciate that this industry works as a team. you are no better than the rest of us, bare that in mind next time you talk down to the engineers or flight crew like idiots.. We can make your life harder than you can make ours.
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: Geezer ]</p>
it is the people like you and monitz suter that dont help the airlines and their image, you need to climb out of your ivory tower and appreciate that this industry works as a team. you are no better than the rest of us, bare that in mind next time you talk down to the engineers or flight crew like idiots.. We can make your life harder than you can make ours.
[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: Geezer ]</p>
Moderator
Joined: Feb 1998
Posts: 3,051
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From: Europe
FlyBlue, you and I both know what we are worth.. .Our companies show what they believe we are worth by paying us a good salary.. .When we're out flying, by and large there is in both our companies a large dose of mutual respect and friendliness between cockpit- and cabin crew.. .The ppruners I have met in person and of whom I know for a fact that they are pilots, all have the same point of view re. our various roles in the business of transporting pax from A to B in a safe and comfortable manner.. .Ergo, I don't care what kind of silly rubbish is spouted on here by alleged pilots.
Now back to the thread. In Norwegian we have the word "synsing". Means "the propounding of views which are not backed up by any facts but based on one's gut-feelings".. .There's a lot of synsing on this thread.
Cabin service between different airlines often gets compared by looking how many FA's per how many pax.
What I'd be very interested in knowing is how the various European majors compare on "how many office staff per howm many seat kilometers"
Is there anyone out there in PPRuNe land who is in possession of these numbers, or more appropriate ones, regarding BA and other big European Airlines? . .So that we can argue based on some hard facts instead of drown in "sysnsing".
Now back to the thread. In Norwegian we have the word "synsing". Means "the propounding of views which are not backed up by any facts but based on one's gut-feelings".. .There's a lot of synsing on this thread.
Cabin service between different airlines often gets compared by looking how many FA's per how many pax.
What I'd be very interested in knowing is how the various European majors compare on "how many office staff per howm many seat kilometers"
Is there anyone out there in PPRuNe land who is in possession of these numbers, or more appropriate ones, regarding BA and other big European Airlines? . .So that we can argue based on some hard facts instead of drown in "sysnsing".
Moderator
Joined: Feb 1998
Posts: 3,051
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From: Europe
Geezer, any chance at all of agreeing to politely differ on some points and agree on others so we can get back to the main point of this thread, namely if BA and other big name airlines have too many chiefs and too few indians. (eg pilots, ground engineers, flight engineers, FA's and ground handling staff??
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 16
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From: USA
Glad I'm not "Manager-Feng Shui" at BA (real person I am told). I understand he/she is rearranging his office for max ying yang positive energy in preparation for Shape and Size. I suggest locking his office door and putting all of his office furniture firmly against it! 
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,135
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From: Camp X-Ray
Can't remember the exact figures from the BALPA briefings but I think BA had about 240 employees per aircraft, which was approximately 100 more than the nearest competitor (Lufthansa I think). We did have fewer flight crew per aircraft than all the other benchmark airlines (Lufthansa, Air France, KLM , United and some more I think), and they averaged more hours flying per year with fewer days off. They also did this on salaries which were lower (furthermore the salaries were not factored to account for cost of living in different countries). The most telling aspect of the whole review was that many of these figures were derived from information provided by BA and were undisputed by the company.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,261
Likes: 1
From: Europe
According to the last Company briefing, AF has around 58.000 employees for 236 airplanes.. .Pilots 3800, Flight Attendants 12000, Ground Personnel 43000. .Concorde = 5. .B777-200 = 18. .B747-400 = 13. .B747-300/200 = 25. .B767 = 5. .A340-300 = 22. .A310-300/200 = 4. .B737-500/300 = 36. .A321 = 15. .A320-200/100 = 61. .A319 = 32. .Those are November numbers, since then B767 and especially 310 have started progressively being replaced by A330.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
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From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
I know it was a page or so ago but:
Moritz, your attitude towards your fellow (?)professionals is dangerous. Either change it or stay on the ground. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Moritz, your attitude towards your fellow (?)professionals is dangerous. Either change it or stay on the ground. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 230
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From: Over the horizon
Does anyone know what the actual pay is for flying Snoopy's house, some one mentioned that this position existed a couple of pages back?
On a more serious subject: I find it interesting that BA wish to once again dabble in the Low Cost business. I may be wrong, but was that not what Go was all about, IIRC that was sold off. Seems like they have tried this road and failed, so why go there again? Secondly, seems like a full service airline, when they enter into the low cost arena, starts competing with themselves and start driving down their own yields.
Once upon a time, at least in my eyes, BA was the cats meow, the worlds favourite airline indeed, but recently, it seems, the level of service has dropped. I almost miss the BA employees attitude, the "We are very proper and the best in the biz", because they were and they proved it on every flight that I was on. But now I fly KLM.
On a more serious subject: I find it interesting that BA wish to once again dabble in the Low Cost business. I may be wrong, but was that not what Go was all about, IIRC that was sold off. Seems like they have tried this road and failed, so why go there again? Secondly, seems like a full service airline, when they enter into the low cost arena, starts competing with themselves and start driving down their own yields.
Once upon a time, at least in my eyes, BA was the cats meow, the worlds favourite airline indeed, but recently, it seems, the level of service has dropped. I almost miss the BA employees attitude, the "We are very proper and the best in the biz", because they were and they proved it on every flight that I was on. But now I fly KLM.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,135
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From: Camp X-Ray
BA isn't going into the low cost business per se, it's trying to emulate what the low costs airlines do succesfully. That is utilising the aircraft efficiently, reducing costs by acheiving a high proportion of sales from the internet and offering competitively priced tickets. One of BAs problems is that in the past it hasn't competed with the low cost operators but just ran away whenever competition reared its ugly head. Perhaps our managers were of the opinion that competing was beneath us? Well now they've realised there's nowehere else to run to and they are going to have to compete, and one of the first things to do is make the public that aware that only some of BAs fares are high, and only some of the low cost airlines fares are low.
