Do we still need flight engineers?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: earth
Do we still need flight engineers?
I thought i would start a topic on the need for flight engineers.. .Is anybody of the opinion that disasters such as the swissair crash sr111 could have been avoided if the 2 crew concentrated on flying the md11 while the engineer could have hacked away panels,to locate the fire.. .Pilots are trained to fly aeroplanes,and not know how systems operate,or system integration,ie,a pilot will switch of a hydrualic pump if the light flashes at him,while a flight engineer will switch to the mcdu page to see if the pump is still producing 3000psi,monitor it and perhaps let it run on.
Dog Tired
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: uk
unless you are able to permit only those us who have flown with FEs to reply,you are opening a can of worms.of course we loved to have them there. my aircraft has no FE but I wish I had the luxury of one.. .your remark about pilots not being trained to understand systems is a bit severe though... .anyway,the best thing about FEs is that if you come down in the desert,you can eat them. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Moon Walker
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 502
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From: the Moon
F/E are great,they help out with the checks ,situation awareness and of course making the coffie,and lets not forget the walkaround on a rainy day !!. .I have done the single and two crew and problably have to go back to two crew soon but i'm glad to have the "old" guy behind me.. .But on the other hand in my view a Flight Engineer should come with a supply of anti gas pill's !! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Neil
Neil
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From: Eagan, MN
I started flying in the 60's with F/E's & Nav's; loved it! Nav's were engineered out with INS, FMC, GPS, etc. Sad to see them go! I became an F/E in the 70's when I went from the military to my airline job; the F/E has also been engineered out. Sorry to see F/E's go! BUT... Economics being what it is, that's life. I also know railroads; union contracts kept firemen onboard well after their useful life had gone; they didn't go and, due to their presence & other uneconomic practices, the railroads DIED!
Gentlemen & Gentleladies: I honor & respect the Engineer, & the Nav, & the Radio Operator (& the 2nd engineer, to crawl out into the wing when oil had to be added in flight & to scan during engine start). I have wonderful memories & stories of many of these people, and examples of their invaluable presence when the s**t hit the fan, on the older aircraft. However, for better or worse, with the new aircraft, it's a new, and in many ways sadder, day.
Gentlemen & Gentleladies: I honor & respect the Engineer, & the Nav, & the Radio Operator (& the 2nd engineer, to crawl out into the wing when oil had to be added in flight & to scan during engine start). I have wonderful memories & stories of many of these people, and examples of their invaluable presence when the s**t hit the fan, on the older aircraft. However, for better or worse, with the new aircraft, it's a new, and in many ways sadder, day.
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: UK
Neil. I know you would not want to be at a party without one!! Except last week!. .Although many of us are being phased (3 of course) out. I for one do not or am not financially able to move to the right hand seat. However the more that are able to move will, hopefully, enable me and a few of the hard core to remain as the "Back seat driver" for many happy times to come.
So how do you transfer the drive to the wheels on the ground??
So how do you transfer the drive to the wheels on the ground??
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Bechuanaland
I doubt that they will be able to field the A380 without a technical (non-pilot) member of the Technical Flight Crew. Might even go so far as to say it might be irresponsible to do so.
Most pilots who've flown with professional F.E.'s have an abiding recollection of a much safer operation - for a myriad of unrelated reasons.
Most pilots who've flown with professional F.E.'s have an abiding recollection of a much safer operation - for a myriad of unrelated reasons.
Joined: May 2000
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From: Camp X-Ray
747 I take it you don't really know many pilots based on that rather stupid initial posting
Pilots are trained to fly aeroplanes,and not know how systems operate,or system integration,ie,a pilot will switch of a hydrualic pump if the light flashes at him,while a flight engineer will switch to the mcdu page to see if the pump is still producing 3000psi,monitor it and perhaps let it run on.
Yeah, and if the ECAM tells me to jump off a cliff I'll do that as well. We're trained to fly the aircraft AND know how the systems operate. I doubt an FE would have changed the outcome of SR111, you can't just let someone rip off panels and shut down electrics which affect the controlability of the aircraft. On a modern glass cockpit aircraft there's little if anything that an FE could achieve in the flight deck that the flight crew couldn't. He'd only have access to the same buttons and switches as we would, so unless he wants to climb out on the wing and fix the engine then he'd just be along for the ride.
Pilots are trained to fly aeroplanes,and not know how systems operate,or system integration,ie,a pilot will switch of a hydrualic pump if the light flashes at him,while a flight engineer will switch to the mcdu page to see if the pump is still producing 3000psi,monitor it and perhaps let it run on.
Yeah, and if the ECAM tells me to jump off a cliff I'll do that as well. We're trained to fly the aircraft AND know how the systems operate. I doubt an FE would have changed the outcome of SR111, you can't just let someone rip off panels and shut down electrics which affect the controlability of the aircraft. On a modern glass cockpit aircraft there's little if anything that an FE could achieve in the flight deck that the flight crew couldn't. He'd only have access to the same buttons and switches as we would, so unless he wants to climb out on the wing and fix the engine then he'd just be along for the ride.
Moderator
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From: Europe
Hand Solo, you know that biblical proverb about eyes and beams? . .After your "quality" posts on the cabin crew forum, I'd be a bit more careful about accusing other people of making stupid posts if I were you!. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Moon Walker
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 502
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From: the Moon
Hand Solo,. .How about one pilot fly's the aircraft and there are two guy's to go through the checklist and take care of the problem.. .A lot less stressfull than in a two men crew(even that modern a/c with "working"autopilots help a lot too).. .Believe me the F/E's technical knowledge is a LOT better than that of the Pilots (overall),and is well worth the beers you have to buy him in the hotel.
Neil
Neil
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From: EU
cant let this slip by,
Firstly Semophore Sam .... i like ure style man it impresses me.... like 2 be on ure crew honest...cool <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> guy. .I hope for a 3 crew airplane after my B727F is gone.
Arni, believe me i personally know Neil and he does buy his fair share of drinks , before he goes ppruning.... but Neil like me are skippers on 727F and dont really want to go back to 2 crew if we can help or change it.......mmmmmmmm think 757 coming Neil??
. .Handsolo...jesus man, i think if an F/E was aboard the SR aircraft all they would be talking and argueing about would be an "overweight landing", Have u ever seen the holes that a F/E can pull you out of?? if not....go try it> ok dude.
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Hogg ]</p>
Firstly Semophore Sam .... i like ure style man it impresses me.... like 2 be on ure crew honest...cool <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> guy. .I hope for a 3 crew airplane after my B727F is gone.
Arni, believe me i personally know Neil and he does buy his fair share of drinks , before he goes ppruning.... but Neil like me are skippers on 727F and dont really want to go back to 2 crew if we can help or change it.......mmmmmmmm think 757 coming Neil??
. .Handsolo...jesus man, i think if an F/E was aboard the SR aircraft all they would be talking and argueing about would be an "overweight landing", Have u ever seen the holes that a F/E can pull you out of?? if not....go try it> ok dude.
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Hogg ]</p>
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: England
2 crew is fine for normal operation. But get a tricky emergency and a complex checklist and you suddenly wish for a third crew member.
1 to pole the aircraft.. .1 to handle the systems and checklists.. .1 to communicate, with ATC and Cabin.
Trying to handle the checklist and the radio can be a mare, every call interupts the checklist.
If the automatics are available, I prefer to hand off the radio and flying to my colleague.
If there is a third pilot on board, even if not on the same fleet, I brief them to be prepared to take over the radio in the event of a major emergency. Might as well make the jumpseater earn their place!
So, in an emergency I'd love to be able to teleport a third crew member on board, pilot or F/E, either would be great.
Would a third crewmember be good? Yes.. .DO we still need flight engineers? Not as such.
CPB
1 to pole the aircraft.. .1 to handle the systems and checklists.. .1 to communicate, with ATC and Cabin.
Trying to handle the checklist and the radio can be a mare, every call interupts the checklist.
If the automatics are available, I prefer to hand off the radio and flying to my colleague.
If there is a third pilot on board, even if not on the same fleet, I brief them to be prepared to take over the radio in the event of a major emergency. Might as well make the jumpseater earn their place!
So, in an emergency I'd love to be able to teleport a third crew member on board, pilot or F/E, either would be great.
Would a third crewmember be good? Yes.. .DO we still need flight engineers? Not as such.
CPB
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From: EU
But, Have you ever operated with Proffessional F/Es?? ie required by law?
Its nice for you to think of them as a 3rd man! but until people op with them u dont realise their importance.......like op a 737 without an F/o
Capt!! Pitbull , think uve missed the point <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Hogg ]</p>
Its nice for you to think of them as a 3rd man! but until people op with them u dont realise their importance.......like op a 737 without an F/o
Capt!! Pitbull , think uve missed the point <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Hogg ]</p>
Joined: Sep 1998
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From: wherever
Hand solo,. .About six years ago whilst the Pilots carried out a diversion I tore the flightdeck apart. We were all on oxy and about an hour away from the nearest airfield. After about 15 mins of very low vis ie the pilots could not see the instrements without peering forward through the smoke. I found the burning windshield heat controler and unplugged it. The smoke cleared, we downgraded the emergency and eventually landed safely. . .I don't think the same would have happened on a two man flightdeck do you??
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Denver, Co. usa
FE Hopey and Fergi.....
It does help if the FE can play the guitar and sing on the layovers. Then they may be considered indispensible.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
It does help if the FE can play the guitar and sing on the layovers. Then they may be considered indispensible.
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Joined: Apr 1999
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First of all, you are all being very unkind to Hand Solo. He should be pitied, not chastised. Lets all send him a birthday card on his 21st birthday. Inexperience should be treated with sympathy, not disdain.
To get to the point, as an earlier post mentioned, F/Es are invaluable when the outside check, walkaround, call it what it you will, has to be carried out on a dark and very rainy night.. .And it is a special treat when you have hidden his umbrella.
It is a shame that a lot of fun has gone out of it now he has to wear those fetching luminous jackets, so he is no longer invisible to tractor drivers, refuellers and caterers et al
To get to the point, as an earlier post mentioned, F/Es are invaluable when the outside check, walkaround, call it what it you will, has to be carried out on a dark and very rainy night.. .And it is a special treat when you have hidden his umbrella.
It is a shame that a lot of fun has gone out of it now he has to wear those fetching luminous jackets, so he is no longer invisible to tractor drivers, refuellers and caterers et al
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,050
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From: England
Hogg
To expand. My actual viewpoint is that pilots could do with more technical training, and a F/E is familiar with every aspect of the operation except (maybe) the handling, which is the easy bit IMHO.
When you talk about needing flight engineers, it seems to me you are more talking about the flight engineers station, rather than the person. Myself, I'd rather give them some stick time and then call us all pilots. Or Flight Deck Managers. Or whatever PC term is de rigeur.
. .Hand Solo
Regarding climbing out of the aircraft to fix a problem, I direct you to the case of <a href="http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/award.asp?vc=626" target="_blank">Jackson VC</a>
CPB
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt Pit Bull ]</p>
To expand. My actual viewpoint is that pilots could do with more technical training, and a F/E is familiar with every aspect of the operation except (maybe) the handling, which is the easy bit IMHO.
When you talk about needing flight engineers, it seems to me you are more talking about the flight engineers station, rather than the person. Myself, I'd rather give them some stick time and then call us all pilots. Or Flight Deck Managers. Or whatever PC term is de rigeur.
. .Hand Solo
Regarding climbing out of the aircraft to fix a problem, I direct you to the case of <a href="http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/award.asp?vc=626" target="_blank">Jackson VC</a>
CPB
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt Pit Bull ]</p>