Good BA advice
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The fact of the matter is that people at BA have had it to good for too long; high salaries, stupid costly allowance system, costly and outdated bidline system, etc etc.
If BA is to survive and prosper it needs to do something radical to bring itself up to date.
Dump the bidline system to an efficient roster system, streamline the allowance system back to what was meant to be, a subsistance allowance while away from base!! Get rid of the dead wood management structure, etc etc.
If BA is to survive and prosper it needs to do something radical to bring itself up to date.
Dump the bidline system to an efficient roster system, streamline the allowance system back to what was meant to be, a subsistance allowance while away from base!! Get rid of the dead wood management structure, etc etc.
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Driver1 - All these things you mention will come to pass eventually, driven as they always are by market forces, redundancies etc. Economic realism always creeps in under pressure - it's never voted in by the unions or freely chosen by the workforce. Many of the changes are already under way over the years at BA - more flying hours per pilot, less crews per aircraft, some sections that are not bidline, not-so-silly allowances etc. The process will speed up now with the competition of the low cost operators....
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Folks, if the CSD in BA earn as much as you state (which is not confirmed) it only means that they are better than you whingers are at negotiating their salaries. So please if you are not happy with your salaries go negotiate it and stop peeping on other's pockets.. .For those who blab about other people's profession without even knowing the basics, I strongly suggest that you take a look at the manuals and your CRM, because your silly statements only prove your ignorance, quite despicable in a professional (provided that you are one).
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Further to my above post, most new entrants {and not so new } can't afford to live in the SE of England any more on BA salaries and have moved to cheaper locations { like France and Spain} where it is possible to live relatively well. What is your solution? Stop paying 60K a year to pushback drivers, 50K a yr to some longhaul cabin crew, 250 K a yr to R.E, or 50K a yr to me?
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Well Maxy101 - what's that with allowances 60K? You are, after all, just a co-pilot and living in Spain you can afford housing, a car and even go down the road for a holiday! Not overpaid, I agree but why should you be? Adequately paid, fairly paid (I assume you agreed to the salary)and the envy of many less rewarded. Sounds good to me.
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I dont think the CRM card has anything to do with what is being discussed here, I am talking about reality and competition, if your unions wish to negotiate you out of a job then so be it! If upper, middle mamagement and crews at BA wish BA to go bust then carry on in the Walter Mitty world. If you want job security and a lean and competitive company that you can be proud of then sacrifices have to be made.
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Hey- I'm a Tug Operative and I object to being called a pushback driver and accused of being paid 60k.
I would go on strike if they reduced my pay to that level.
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Joyce Tick ]</p>
I would go on strike if they reduced my pay to that level.
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Joyce Tick ]</p>
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I have to agree with you FlyBlue; that this thread has become a sound example of the trouble BA has - That there is always someone else to blame. Quite correctly, you have pointed out that the role of the CSD has been successfully defended by the Union, BASSA/CC89, but what Hand Solo has failed to mention is that over the last 3 to 4 years, the role of CSD within BA has been 'marketed' almost as though the Chain of Command needed to be re-written, with the Captain doing the driving, the CSD doing everything else and finally the First Officer being seen but not heard, asking the CSD for permission to eat somewhere outside the cockpit.
The CSD's on the £50k+ salaries are <ul type="square">[*]Old Contract[*]Old in Years. .[/list]They are retiring in droves, but sadly their disdain for 'Flight Deck' seems to rub off onto the C/C that are ready to fill their shoes. This prejudice could have quite easily been eradicated by Flight Ops/Cabin Crew management, but instead there were many quite rude demotivating changes made to both Pilot status and inflammatory enhances made to the CSD's perks. . .Consequently we whinged. They stuck two fingers up at us. The levels of 'eyedrops' in Tea rose significantly and now we're locked in to our office, at the mercy of the occasional embittered Windsor Resident who has never married but has 12 Cats who are all neutered and called Nigel.
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Land ASAP ]</p>
The CSD's on the £50k+ salaries are <ul type="square">[*]Old Contract[*]Old in Years. .[/list]They are retiring in droves, but sadly their disdain for 'Flight Deck' seems to rub off onto the C/C that are ready to fill their shoes. This prejudice could have quite easily been eradicated by Flight Ops/Cabin Crew management, but instead there were many quite rude demotivating changes made to both Pilot status and inflammatory enhances made to the CSD's perks. . .Consequently we whinged. They stuck two fingers up at us. The levels of 'eyedrops' in Tea rose significantly and now we're locked in to our office, at the mercy of the occasional embittered Windsor Resident who has never married but has 12 Cats who are all neutered and called Nigel.
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Land ASAP ]</p>
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Flyblue!
I totally disagree with you!
Looking at the diff between cabin and flight crew unions with regards to pay negotiations, BALPA worked very well towards trying to secure better pay for flight crew, pre sep 11th - this was all put on hold due to the problems BA is now facing!
I operate out of EOG where alas we dont have the mystical CSD, silver badged creature! however during October operated a few flights out of LHR ( shorthaul 737 ) on these flights had 1xCSD 2xPurser and 2X CCrew - surely this signifies the problems with BA - too many managers!!!!!. .I dont know if this is the norm but I can tell you the Crew when asked about allowances - earnt more than us!!!!!
When asked about this the response from the CSD was ` doesnt make up for the basic pay though does it` - WELL IT SHOULDNT HAVE TOO - WE GO THROUGH YEARS OF TRAINING TO GET WHERE WE ARE, IN ORDER TO FLY A HIGHLY COMPLEX PIECE OF MACHINERY SAFELY DAY IN DAY OUT, STUDYING A VAST AMOUNT OF SUBJECTS TOO ACHIEVE THIS!SO WE SHOULD EARN MORE!!!! You dont get all the waiters in the restaurant demanding to earn the same as the restaurant manager do you.......
I recommend in order to cut costs all LHR based crews should come onto an agreement such as what we have at LGW! ( both CC and FC) cut out some of the bull**** scheduling agreements - such as split duties not allowed - pull together and start to run things a tad more economically!!!
Whinge over!
I totally disagree with you!
Looking at the diff between cabin and flight crew unions with regards to pay negotiations, BALPA worked very well towards trying to secure better pay for flight crew, pre sep 11th - this was all put on hold due to the problems BA is now facing!
I operate out of EOG where alas we dont have the mystical CSD, silver badged creature! however during October operated a few flights out of LHR ( shorthaul 737 ) on these flights had 1xCSD 2xPurser and 2X CCrew - surely this signifies the problems with BA - too many managers!!!!!. .I dont know if this is the norm but I can tell you the Crew when asked about allowances - earnt more than us!!!!!
When asked about this the response from the CSD was ` doesnt make up for the basic pay though does it` - WELL IT SHOULDNT HAVE TOO - WE GO THROUGH YEARS OF TRAINING TO GET WHERE WE ARE, IN ORDER TO FLY A HIGHLY COMPLEX PIECE OF MACHINERY SAFELY DAY IN DAY OUT, STUDYING A VAST AMOUNT OF SUBJECTS TOO ACHIEVE THIS!SO WE SHOULD EARN MORE!!!! You dont get all the waiters in the restaurant demanding to earn the same as the restaurant manager do you.......
I recommend in order to cut costs all LHR based crews should come onto an agreement such as what we have at LGW! ( both CC and FC) cut out some of the bull**** scheduling agreements - such as split duties not allowed - pull together and start to run things a tad more economically!!!
Whinge over!
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Pete O Tube, I hope it didn't sound like a whinge. I merely try to point out that a 12 yr copilot is hardly overpaid in B.A .Especially when you remember the allowances are spent down route, unless you're a Trappist monk.I resent people making these accusations when most outside BA don't realise that 90 per cent of pilots are not on the mythical salaries of the paypoint 20 guys, in fact I flew with a 16yr Jumbo Captain who takes home less than me. That cannot be right. However, I happen to think that he is underpaid, not the other way around.Flight crew in BA are not the problem. If they were, how can the rest of the worlds airlines afford to pay far more than BA but not be in the S@@@ that BA is in?
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First, let me say I am glad to be finally able to have a constructive discussion on this matter. Thank you for the tone of your answers to my -I admit- "sick and tired" post.
I must start by saying that the fabulous "moi", even if working for a flag carrier, is not earning by far the amounts we are talking about. And I am not a CSD, so I am not speaking "pro domo mea" (hope latin is not too disturbing coming from a F/A!). .I do agree that maybe some of them are a burden to the community and their workload is nonexistant. I have written in a previous thread on the subject that many CSD could be easily replaced by a more performant video system (but be careful:I work every day with CCPs, AF's CSD, that are worth every penny they earn!). . . .BUT: the system made CSD/CCP what they are! The Company agreed on their salary! I object on the right for a professional to scrutinize another professional's salary and ESPECIALLY his "intrinsic value"! Because this game is neverending, and there is no winner: which profession would be next on the defendant box? Why should a 747 Captain earn more than a 767 one? Why a pilot with 25 years seniority should earn more than one with 15 years, when they are doing the same job? I know the answers to those questions so don't bother answering. What I am trying to say is that anyone should mind HIS OWN business without feeling entitled of bitching about the others, especially when <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> one isn't really competent on the subject (and to state that F/A only serve tea or coffee IS a proof that one is not competent, and probably not piloting anything bigger than Snoopy's house. Otherwise it would mean that the company made a hell of a bad job on his training. Treating F/As like waiters means that you are not using correctly the means you have at your disposal, and the day might come when you'll bitterly regret this mistake).
And about the training bla bla bla, I am STILL training, continuosly training, and the more I go on on the profession the more I realise how much you can still learn. What makes a trained experienced F/A an asset to an airline. Then let me blow my trumpet by saying that I consider myself worth my salary, and even a little more. I have attended University, speak currently 4 languages and am not what you call ugly <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . If my salary was not interesting I (and my collegues) would go for something else, and my management knows it.
The prejudice Land ASAP is talkin about is usually mutual, and carefully fed by management in order to avoid the danger of workers getting united. I personally don't have prejudice aginst anyone, knowing firsthand that there are good boys and rotten apples on both sides. Consequently I give the benefit of the doubt until proof of the contrary.
I must start by saying that the fabulous "moi", even if working for a flag carrier, is not earning by far the amounts we are talking about. And I am not a CSD, so I am not speaking "pro domo mea" (hope latin is not too disturbing coming from a F/A!). .I do agree that maybe some of them are a burden to the community and their workload is nonexistant. I have written in a previous thread on the subject that many CSD could be easily replaced by a more performant video system (but be careful:I work every day with CCPs, AF's CSD, that are worth every penny they earn!). . . .BUT: the system made CSD/CCP what they are! The Company agreed on their salary! I object on the right for a professional to scrutinize another professional's salary and ESPECIALLY his "intrinsic value"! Because this game is neverending, and there is no winner: which profession would be next on the defendant box? Why should a 747 Captain earn more than a 767 one? Why a pilot with 25 years seniority should earn more than one with 15 years, when they are doing the same job? I know the answers to those questions so don't bother answering. What I am trying to say is that anyone should mind HIS OWN business without feeling entitled of bitching about the others, especially when <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> one isn't really competent on the subject (and to state that F/A only serve tea or coffee IS a proof that one is not competent, and probably not piloting anything bigger than Snoopy's house. Otherwise it would mean that the company made a hell of a bad job on his training. Treating F/As like waiters means that you are not using correctly the means you have at your disposal, and the day might come when you'll bitterly regret this mistake).
And about the training bla bla bla, I am STILL training, continuosly training, and the more I go on on the profession the more I realise how much you can still learn. What makes a trained experienced F/A an asset to an airline. Then let me blow my trumpet by saying that I consider myself worth my salary, and even a little more. I have attended University, speak currently 4 languages and am not what you call ugly <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . If my salary was not interesting I (and my collegues) would go for something else, and my management knows it.
The prejudice Land ASAP is talkin about is usually mutual, and carefully fed by management in order to avoid the danger of workers getting united. I personally don't have prejudice aginst anyone, knowing firsthand that there are good boys and rotten apples on both sides. Consequently I give the benefit of the doubt until proof of the contrary.
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Almost all "Rumour" or "News" element of this thread has disappeared, drowned in the tidal wave created by resurrecting this ancient debate. It's one which we've had before many times on PPRuNe, most recently in the Cabin Crew Forum, the most likely destination for this thread at the moment. Although there's actually some good, structured argument going on here following the drift (vis. Flyblue's post above) can we try to discuss the differentials in roles and salaries elswhere on PPRuNe, if we must at all?
Please, let's try to keep this one on track; for once some journalist has stumbled upon a grain of truth and not succumbed to the easy answers and regurgitated press releases.
Refer back to the first post, apropos the allegedly over-inflated middle-management and non-frontline tiers in British Airways. Keep it going accordingly, or this thread will have to be moved off R and N, and the opportunity lost to address the real issue here.
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]</p>
Please, let's try to keep this one on track; for once some journalist has stumbled upon a grain of truth and not succumbed to the easy answers and regurgitated press releases.
Refer back to the first post, apropos the allegedly over-inflated middle-management and non-frontline tiers in British Airways. Keep it going accordingly, or this thread will have to be moved off R and N, and the opportunity lost to address the real issue here.
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]</p>
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Flyblue, thank you for a constructive posting, far better than the bordering on offensive one earlier.
I agree the company has in conjunction with the unions created dinosaurs in upper/middle management down to crew / fleets / bases, that is why things have to change and change radically. No pain no gain as they say!
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: driver1 ]</p>
I agree the company has in conjunction with the unions created dinosaurs in upper/middle management down to crew / fleets / bases, that is why things have to change and change radically. No pain no gain as they say!
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: driver1 ]</p>
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I aspire to offer a moment of clarity.
First, as a captain on a major European airline, one thing is absolutely clear to me. The value of a TRULY professional CSD is worth vastly more to me than my first officer.
I, like many others, am aware of the impact of our product as is perceived by our customers. It's the cabin staff, lead by an able CSD that determines the success or otherwise of our efforts here.
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever, in flying with a CSD who is paid even more than I am. It is he or she, through whom I am informed as to the true state of my cabin during an emergency, and it is through him or her, that my instructions during an emergency are carried out.
EXPERIENCE IS EVERYTHING!
First, as a captain on a major European airline, one thing is absolutely clear to me. The value of a TRULY professional CSD is worth vastly more to me than my first officer.
I, like many others, am aware of the impact of our product as is perceived by our customers. It's the cabin staff, lead by an able CSD that determines the success or otherwise of our efforts here.
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever, in flying with a CSD who is paid even more than I am. It is he or she, through whom I am informed as to the true state of my cabin during an emergency, and it is through him or her, that my instructions during an emergency are carried out.
EXPERIENCE IS EVERYTHING!
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Well I bet you're really popular with your FOs Moritz! Just remind me again who'll be watching the shop when you nip out to the loo? And who is it that you go into the simulator with? The purser? A good CSD is valuable indeed and can set the right tone in the cabin thats keep the customers coming back. That doesn't detract from the fact that nothing scares the punters away like a big crash and there's very little a CSD can do to prevent that. That sort of safety is down to the two professionals sitting in the flight deck. Unless of course you think you can run the whole show perfectly without input from your co-pilot. Thats the sort of attitude they have at Korean and we've seen how accident prone they are, and lets face it, Crossairs record ain't been that great lately either. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
All this has nothing to do with the orignal posting of course!
All this has nothing to do with the orignal posting of course!
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If you can provide me with evidence where an f/o made a greater contibution to the survivability on a major incident than a CSD, I'd certainly like to hear it.. . [quote]and there's very little a CSD can do to prevent that. <hr></blockquote>. .First Officers are vitally important, provided they know their place. Very few do.
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United Airlines DC10, Sioux City. Didn't see the CSD flying the thing with no hydraulics. Would you like more examples, I have lots.
In fact I'll edit this to add the BA 744 to Nairobi that the looney pax tried to crash. Precisely where was the CSD when the FO was flying the aircraft with his left arm (which I believe had the Kenyans teeth sunk into it) whilst fighting him off with the right, before flying a perfect stall recovery after dropping 20000 feet. Now thats a question even BA won't answer!
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</p>
In fact I'll edit this to add the BA 744 to Nairobi that the looney pax tried to crash. Precisely where was the CSD when the FO was flying the aircraft with his left arm (which I believe had the Kenyans teeth sunk into it) whilst fighting him off with the right, before flying a perfect stall recovery after dropping 20000 feet. Now thats a question even BA won't answer!
[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</p>
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Moritz Suter:
quote: First Officers are vitally important, provided they know their place. Very few do.
that kind of attitude went out with the ark!
As the commander of an airliner i appreciate that it takes a TEAM to operate it safely, that goes right back to the most junior cabin crew member being a vital part of that team.
The first officer is your second in command, may i suggest that you get to know YOUR place and respect and encourage your senior team player!!
GRRRRRR <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
quote: First Officers are vitally important, provided they know their place. Very few do.
that kind of attitude went out with the ark!
As the commander of an airliner i appreciate that it takes a TEAM to operate it safely, that goes right back to the most junior cabin crew member being a vital part of that team.
The first officer is your second in command, may i suggest that you get to know YOUR place and respect and encourage your senior team player!!
GRRRRRR <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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Moritz Suter
What about the quick-thinking Lufthansa A320 F/O last year who overrode the capt's cross-wired controls after t/o, thereby saving the aircraft?
Come on - make PPRuNe history - admit you're wrong.
What about the quick-thinking Lufthansa A320 F/O last year who overrode the capt's cross-wired controls after t/o, thereby saving the aircraft?
Come on - make PPRuNe history - admit you're wrong.