A380 - combined threads
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and no need. US airlines have another route structure than others. I remember a time when most of US airlines got rid of 747 and depended heavily on mid size wide bodies. If they would see a way in making money with the A380, they would have been the first on the list.
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In view of Unctuous's interesting thread maybe the A380 should currently be referred to as the 'Nightmareliner' until Mr Mangan's views are substantiated or otherwise.
It makes for scary reading, especially for potential whistleblowers.
It makes for scary reading, especially for potential whistleblowers.
Union Goon
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No need.
Over Two thirds of all 747s sold were bought for the RANGE, not their size. Well now you don't need to go big to go far. The 747 was not killed by the 380. It was killed by the 767 and the 777.
BTW, if you throw out out all the 747s that were sold for range instead of size, then boeing only sells about 300-400 of them over the last 35 years and the program is a gigantic flop. (just like the 380 would be if Airbus actually had to pay all the developement costs)
Cheers
Wino
Over Two thirds of all 747s sold were bought for the RANGE, not their size. Well now you don't need to go big to go far. The 747 was not killed by the 380. It was killed by the 767 and the 777.
BTW, if you throw out out all the 747s that were sold for range instead of size, then boeing only sells about 300-400 of them over the last 35 years and the program is a gigantic flop. (just like the 380 would be if Airbus actually had to pay all the developement costs)
Cheers
Wino
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So now that you've got an inventory of 40+ 744s that you bought for range you can either trade them for 777s and get the same range with fewer pax or can you trade them for 380s and get the same range with more pax. Wonder what the airlines will do.
Good to see the usual Boeing/US industry supporters misrepresenting things again as usual.
Big bold banner headline "A380 not a single order", with just a little subtext that this is just referring to US companies, as if they are the only ones of consequence.
Then when the US FedEx order is pointed out the rules of the question are changed.
Face it, everyone involved with the US airline industry. Since the A380 programme was announced ALL the US trunk airlines have either been actually bankrupt or nearly so, while out in the real world things carry on without this. That's why they cannot afford such a new investment. And they probably never will.
The US industry still moans on and on about how 9/11 is the cause of all their ills in order to collect more governmental support while the nations which in comparative terms were far more affected by the tsunami destruction have just got on with it and picked themselves up and carried on.
The collective US airline top managements continue to ego-trip about how large their company is and how large their bonuses are while squandering the now-worthless investments of all the investors in their businesses on maintaining an unsustainable size of their company.
The employees of the US airlines continue to draw the highest paychecks for their jobs in the world while those at least who are customer facing (reservations, checkin, FAs) in return are collectively the most grumpy, customer-hostile group of employees in the worldwide business. Even Aeroflot in comparison are pleasanter and politer (and more competent) nowadays.
All this adds up to why international travellers increasingly keep clear of the US carriers, whose share of international business continues to fall. So no money in the bank, and a declining customer base, means no need for big A380s.
Discuss !
Big bold banner headline "A380 not a single order", with just a little subtext that this is just referring to US companies, as if they are the only ones of consequence.
Then when the US FedEx order is pointed out the rules of the question are changed.
Face it, everyone involved with the US airline industry. Since the A380 programme was announced ALL the US trunk airlines have either been actually bankrupt or nearly so, while out in the real world things carry on without this. That's why they cannot afford such a new investment. And they probably never will.
The US industry still moans on and on about how 9/11 is the cause of all their ills in order to collect more governmental support while the nations which in comparative terms were far more affected by the tsunami destruction have just got on with it and picked themselves up and carried on.
The collective US airline top managements continue to ego-trip about how large their company is and how large their bonuses are while squandering the now-worthless investments of all the investors in their businesses on maintaining an unsustainable size of their company.
The employees of the US airlines continue to draw the highest paychecks for their jobs in the world while those at least who are customer facing (reservations, checkin, FAs) in return are collectively the most grumpy, customer-hostile group of employees in the worldwide business. Even Aeroflot in comparison are pleasanter and politer (and more competent) nowadays.
All this adds up to why international travellers increasingly keep clear of the US carriers, whose share of international business continues to fall. So no money in the bank, and a declining customer base, means no need for big A380s.
Discuss !
Rebel PPRuNer
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the US majors have decided to move in another direction (lean on the FAA until ETOPS 330 is granted) which is their choice.
The US majors are not the world airline industry (any more) so 380 sales will probably go where they are going now - airlines in Asia where they can pile high and sell cheap. SAA is by their own admission another possibility but that airline is showing ever more signs of political sabotage so doubtful an order will ever come.
The question is: if you believe the 380 is a lemon because all the airlines want is a 773ER/LR then 747 Advanced is an equally stupid idea - right?
The US majors are not the world airline industry (any more) so 380 sales will probably go where they are going now - airlines in Asia where they can pile high and sell cheap. SAA is by their own admission another possibility but that airline is showing ever more signs of political sabotage so doubtful an order will ever come.
The question is: if you believe the 380 is a lemon because all the airlines want is a 773ER/LR then 747 Advanced is an equally stupid idea - right?
ILFC a US lease company has 5 pax A380s and 5 A380F, Fedex 10 A380F, UPS orders are not on the airbus web site yet as being confirmed.
Means only 13% of all ordered so fare are going to north america.
Not only are airlines broke, so are the airports, cannot upgrade to handle the 380.
Only 31 going into europe at the moment.
Very true, last time I looked United had 5 of its 777 online with Varig, and 3 with Air India, small numbers compared to their 519 total airframes.
Means only 13% of all ordered so fare are going to north america.
Not only are airlines broke, so are the airports, cannot upgrade to handle the 380.
Only 31 going into europe at the moment.
Face it, everyone involved with the US airline industry. Since the A380 programme was announced ALL the US trunk airlines have either been actually bankrupt or nearly so, while out in the real world things carry on without this. That's why they cannot afford such a new investment. And they probably never will.
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I watched a documentary about the A380, and how the thing comes together from all over europe. Incredible waste in the way that logistics are handled in order to satisfy politics.
For example, the A380 wing is assembled in north Wales. It's too big to go in a guppy so it has to go by sea. But the airbus plant in Wales is not near the sea, and neither is final assembly in Toulouse.
So, the thing goes on a specialist trailer to the River Dee. Then it is loaded onto a barge, the barge sails off down the Dee and has to wait for precisely the right time window in order that the tide is right to allow the whole assembly to fit under low bridges. Then it reaches the sea and is taken off the barge and loaded onto an ocean going ship. The ship sales to the Bay of Biscay and arrives at a French port. Then off the ship onto another barge for a French waterway and another specialist truck to Toulouse. Some parts barely fit between buildings on roads through French villages and the roads have to be closed at night to get the whole convoy through! All this every single week. What an overhead for each aircraft.
Now, I am fairly sure Boeing don't have such problems because 744s subassemblies are all put together in Seattle. Seems quite sensible. In fact in co-operation for Concorde there were two assembly lines, one in each partner nation to complete aircraft.
Just seems a bit daft to be doing all that just for politics.
For example, the A380 wing is assembled in north Wales. It's too big to go in a guppy so it has to go by sea. But the airbus plant in Wales is not near the sea, and neither is final assembly in Toulouse.
So, the thing goes on a specialist trailer to the River Dee. Then it is loaded onto a barge, the barge sails off down the Dee and has to wait for precisely the right time window in order that the tide is right to allow the whole assembly to fit under low bridges. Then it reaches the sea and is taken off the barge and loaded onto an ocean going ship. The ship sales to the Bay of Biscay and arrives at a French port. Then off the ship onto another barge for a French waterway and another specialist truck to Toulouse. Some parts barely fit between buildings on roads through French villages and the roads have to be closed at night to get the whole convoy through! All this every single week. What an overhead for each aircraft.
Now, I am fairly sure Boeing don't have such problems because 744s subassemblies are all put together in Seattle. Seems quite sensible. In fact in co-operation for Concorde there were two assembly lines, one in each partner nation to complete aircraft.
Just seems a bit daft to be doing all that just for politics.
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Could be something to do with the fact that most of your 'majors' are in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. US carriers lost $9 BILLION dollars last year alone!- US Herald Tribune.
Can't buy too many planes if you've got no cash!
Can't buy too many planes if you've got no cash!
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No money, no incentive, and a big NO from Mr Bush and Mr Boeing...... Good luck Mr EADS and the A380 (a real Dreamliner)
William is long-since past and, well W, he can't tell AA or any other airline who to buy thier airplanes from. If what you say had even a grain of truth to it, JetBlue and so many other US carriers pilot's would not be Bus drivers. You did get 2 things right Threegreenlights, no money and no incentive - yet.
Truth is, the American market is the one of the most open markets in the world and US companies often buy outside our borders. When the A380's start generating revenue (for it's airline owners, that is) I'm sure some carriers like maybe Northwest or Delta will surely be looking at buying a few of these super-jumbos. Meanwhile, profitable groups like Southwest, have no need for a 1/4-1/2 full goliath.
Anyone heard any news about flight testing ? - after the glorious TA-DA January debut and subsequent 1st flight ~ woke up at 4am to see that one
~ , Toulouse seems kind of quiet lately - only thing I've heard about is a PAX EVAC planned sometime next year - otherwise it's all hush-hush.
I watched a documentary about the A380, and how the thing comes together from all over europe. Incredible waste in the way that logistics are handled in order to satisfy politics.
And a lot of the 777 is manufactured in Japan and shipped right across the Pacific to Everett (plant not on the sea, it's on top of a hill !). Entirely for politics.
Anyone heard any news about flight testing ?
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US carriers lost $9 BILLION dollars last year alone!- US Herald Tribune.
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Hmmm, sounds just like the Boeing 737 assembly line, where the whole fuselage is manufactured in Wichita, Kansas, then shipped in sections on rail cars across the USA to Seattle to be put together. Distance is much further than Broughton to Toulouse
Yes, Airbus do this stuff already with dispersed sub assembly manufacture around Europe, for example A320 sections are flown into final assembly aboard super-guppys. The difference is that the A380 is bigger than a super guppy so they can't use the aerial route.
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The US industry still moans on and on about how 9/11 is the cause of all their ills in order to collect more governmental support while the nations which in comparative terms were far more affected by the tsunami destruction have just got on with it and picked themselves up and carried on.