controllers with broken english
Ohcirrej
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I agree that many an incident is the result of a combination of adverse factors. And often new procedures/rules/SOP's are adopted (and I'm not just talking knee-jerk reactions) to prevent future occurences. If one link in the chain was broken, the outcome may have been very different. Why maintain the language link at all?
As controllers AND pilots alike are indicating here and in previous threads, it is the feeling of many that a standardised "language" is adopted. Situational awareness of ALL parties who can hear and understand all ATC instructions and responses is THE BIG PICTURE.
This thread has (thankfully) gone beyond the smattering of xenophobia that started rearing it's ugly head. Saftey and "national pride" should be mutually exclusive.
As controllers AND pilots alike are indicating here and in previous threads, it is the feeling of many that a standardised "language" is adopted. Situational awareness of ALL parties who can hear and understand all ATC instructions and responses is THE BIG PICTURE.
This thread has (thankfully) gone beyond the smattering of xenophobia that started rearing it's ugly head. Saftey and "national pride" should be mutually exclusive.
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yachtpilot,
I repeat my earlier statement...I have never found flying in French airspace the slightest bit dangerous.
You mentioned a Dan Air crash in Tenerife...absolutely nothing to do with ATC.The Captain,a Brit,was heard muttering on the CVR,presumably about the controller : "he's taking me towards the high ground"...actually,nothing but his own misconceived idea of navigation took him into the mountain.
In fact,there hasnt been one crash where this problem(as you see it) has been cited as probable cause.Including the CDG crash.
Suggest you chill out and check the facts.
I repeat my earlier statement...I have never found flying in French airspace the slightest bit dangerous.
You mentioned a Dan Air crash in Tenerife...absolutely nothing to do with ATC.The Captain,a Brit,was heard muttering on the CVR,presumably about the controller : "he's taking me towards the high ground"...actually,nothing but his own misconceived idea of navigation took him into the mountain.
In fact,there hasnt been one crash where this problem(as you see it) has been cited as probable cause.Including the CDG crash.
Suggest you chill out and check the facts.
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In fact,there hasnt been one crash where this problem(as you see it) has been cited as probable cause.Including the CDG crash.
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I don't have the actual transcript of the Dan Air accident.. my understanding is from the references to the crash that the controller ( who was under a number of different pressures...professionally and domestically )..issued an instruction for the a/c to take up the hold on arrival over a particular beacon...unfortunately the wording was so poorly phrased the crew understood it to mean a turn to the left and take up a heading ....
Look at it it logically... even if there had not been a single accident resulting from non use or poor use of the designated language ... and it's very clear that there have been...should we wait until we have some body parts to bury before dealing with the problem ?..I, along with my technician and the passengers and crew of a Fokker 100 escaped death by seconds for no better reason than a cloud was no bigger than it was....is that an acceptable risk ?
Rananin... has no problem flying across France ( Why oh why do we keep hearing about France..)... Personally I always feel uncomfortable when tracking toward a VOR and hearing in a foreign language a clearence to another aircraft which includes the VOR ident but I have no idea on what the clearence involves or of the ETA of the other a/c... if you don't feel uncomfortable in those circumstances then I would quetion your qualification to be at the controls of a public transport a/c.
As I mentioned before I do speak some Spanish and some French.. the problem is that when ATC is using the ţlocal language with a native speaking pilot the speech is generally quite rapid and not easily understood by non native speakers.
Look at it it logically... even if there had not been a single accident resulting from non use or poor use of the designated language ... and it's very clear that there have been...should we wait until we have some body parts to bury before dealing with the problem ?..I, along with my technician and the passengers and crew of a Fokker 100 escaped death by seconds for no better reason than a cloud was no bigger than it was....is that an acceptable risk ?
Rananin... has no problem flying across France ( Why oh why do we keep hearing about France..)... Personally I always feel uncomfortable when tracking toward a VOR and hearing in a foreign language a clearence to another aircraft which includes the VOR ident but I have no idea on what the clearence involves or of the ETA of the other a/c... if you don't feel uncomfortable in those circumstances then I would quetion your qualification to be at the controls of a public transport a/c.
As I mentioned before I do speak some Spanish and some French.. the problem is that when ATC is using the ţlocal language with a native speaking pilot the speech is generally quite rapid and not easily understood by non native speakers.
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...okay, so I've read most of the "Complaints" about broken English, but I believe that if one is "in Command" of the aircraft, then the final decision rests clearly on his/her shoulders. If you think you heard something, but are not sure, then ask for clarification...after all you are supposed to have mastered the English language.
If you can switch between English/French or Spanish/French as fast and as competent as some controllers then fine, but until you can, live with it and get on with it.
"...if in doubt..."
If you can switch between English/French or Spanish/French as fast and as competent as some controllers then fine, but until you can, live with it and get on with it.
"...if in doubt..."
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Fly a lot to the U.S.
One can hardly say they speak English there, poor chaps. More like American, consisting of very few phrases and oh so many abbreviations.
One can hardly say they speak English there, poor chaps. More like American, consisting of very few phrases and oh so many abbreviations.
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Here's a link to the CVR transcript of the Streamline/Liberte accident
Streamline / Liberte CVR transcript
After reading this it seems fairly clear that the responsibility for this accident lies solely with the controller for clearing the liberte for take off and then lining up the 330 without a conditional clearance
Streamline / Liberte CVR transcript
After reading this it seems fairly clear that the responsibility for this accident lies solely with the controller for clearing the liberte for take off and then lining up the 330 without a conditional clearance
Last edited by radar707; 20th Oct 2003 at 18:25.
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Interesting thread...I seem to be outnumbered.I just never had a problem with French or Spanish controllers.I rate them highly.If you're not French,they address you in English,if you're French they talk French.Pilots couldnt second-guess a controllers strategy/intentions if they tried.Somebody foolishly claimed the Shorts guy wouldnt have lined up if the other instruction had been in English.Maybe.Maybe not.That crash was controller-error.Language may or may not have been a contributing factor.It would be impossible to say.
Whats certain is that no crash has ever had this problem cited as probable cause.We've had crashes where all parties have been talking English,famously the Saudi/Kazak mid-air or the Tenerife disaster.In no way was the Dan Air 727 crash in TFN caused by anything other than loss of situational awareness by the crew.They werent on a heading(non-radar environment),they were too fast and they entered the holding pattern the wrong way.It can happen to anyone I know,but pls dont blame the poor controller just because he's Spanish.
I can think of one exception to this and thats a holding pattern ina non-radar environemnt...so we're talking Africa,probably former French colony,where there'll be a good mix of English/French traffic.If the stack is busy,each aircraft must report reaching their new level before the next guy is cleared down.For obvious reasons,this must be done in English.
I know the comment about US controllers was tongue-in-cheek but their professionalism is beyond reproach.Simply the best in the world.The movement rates they facilitate are truly amazing.
Whats certain is that no crash has ever had this problem cited as probable cause.We've had crashes where all parties have been talking English,famously the Saudi/Kazak mid-air or the Tenerife disaster.In no way was the Dan Air 727 crash in TFN caused by anything other than loss of situational awareness by the crew.They werent on a heading(non-radar environment),they were too fast and they entered the holding pattern the wrong way.It can happen to anyone I know,but pls dont blame the poor controller just because he's Spanish.
I can think of one exception to this and thats a holding pattern ina non-radar environemnt...so we're talking Africa,probably former French colony,where there'll be a good mix of English/French traffic.If the stack is busy,each aircraft must report reaching their new level before the next guy is cleared down.For obvious reasons,this must be done in English.
I know the comment about US controllers was tongue-in-cheek but their professionalism is beyond reproach.Simply the best in the world.The movement rates they facilitate are truly amazing.
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record......why are there 2 languages being used???
5.2.1.2 Language to be used
5.2.1.2.1 The air-ground radiotelephony communications
shall be conducted in the language normally used by the
station on the ground or in the English language.
5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be available, on
request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground
serving designated airports and routes used by international air
services.
5.2.1.2.3 The languages available at a given station on the
ground shall form part of the Aeronautical Information
Publications and other published aeronautical information
concerning such facilities.
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Happened to me while an effo Ran,
TCAS save. Procedural inbound at well known Greek airfield. Only other traffic being controlled in local language - zero SA until TCAS showed same level traffic outbound in the procedure straight towards us.
Not quite Africa but it felt it for a while
TCAS save. Procedural inbound at well known Greek airfield. Only other traffic being controlled in local language - zero SA until TCAS showed same level traffic outbound in the procedure straight towards us.
Not quite Africa but it felt it for a while
Ohcirrej
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Yes, thank you Cathar......
Back to where we were in the argument (before the Annex squad arrived again!) ie the saftey implications and effects on situational awareness of a bi-lingual ATC frequency, especially when some of the drivers there don't speak the other language.
We've danced around the saftey side of things. What operational advantages exist from this? Or is it just national pride?
Back to where we were in the argument (before the Annex squad arrived again!) ie the saftey implications and effects on situational awareness of a bi-lingual ATC frequency, especially when some of the drivers there don't speak the other language.
We've danced around the saftey side of things. What operational advantages exist from this? Or is it just national pride?
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Jerricho
Je suis désolé.
I had just glanced at first couple of pages of the thread and then at your post which was the last one (I usually avoid these language threads as they usually make me cross so I avoid them) and now realise that in doing so I had lost the thread. While I realise there are some serious safety issues being discussed, there was a lot of what I perceived (perhaps mistakenly) to be typical english zenophobia not to mention a lot of misconception about the international requirements regarding english as the aviation language in some of what I had read.
Back to my english lessons in disgrace.
Je suis désolé.
I had just glanced at first couple of pages of the thread and then at your post which was the last one (I usually avoid these language threads as they usually make me cross so I avoid them) and now realise that in doing so I had lost the thread. While I realise there are some serious safety issues being discussed, there was a lot of what I perceived (perhaps mistakenly) to be typical english zenophobia not to mention a lot of misconception about the international requirements regarding english as the aviation language in some of what I had read.
Back to my english lessons in disgrace.
Rainbow Chaser
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The reality is that airspace and flying in it requires its own language. I won't call it English (as in the language of the UK) but I will call it "aviation speak" which is closely based on English. How many non-aviation folk would have a clue what was being said if they were to receive an ATC instruction or hear a pilot read-back? Pilots and ATC need to be sure that the information being given and received (from all sources) is understandable ... there are many words in many languages that have come from somewhere else .. who cares! It is vital in the ever-increasingly crowded airspace of 2003 that "aviation-speak" is standardised... no-one at any time performing a pilot-in-command (or flight crew) or ATC function should have an information gap in such circumstances.
I have heard French pilots speaking immaculate "aviation" ... I have heard American ATC speaking incoherently fast "aviation" ... bottom line is to avoid doubt and be sure of instructions and have the greatest situational awareness there has to be "aviation-speak".
Correct English is rare, even in the UK, these days where there appears to be an entire generation of grunters and monosyllabic speakers. Aviation needs to rise above any sense of xenophobia or nationalism and recognise that the skies are the only "one world". Of course if we were to consider that Chinese is the most widely spoken language (in population terms) then maybe everyone involved with aviation should learn Chinese?? on second thoughts ... NO!
I wish a lot of pilots and ATC would tape-record themselves and realise how unintelligible they are! the world over!!
Key has to be clarity, accuracy and sky-wide comprehension! For now, and for the foreseeable future the language formerly known as English (from now on to be termed "aviation-speak") seems to be the most sensible one to use!
I have heard French pilots speaking immaculate "aviation" ... I have heard American ATC speaking incoherently fast "aviation" ... bottom line is to avoid doubt and be sure of instructions and have the greatest situational awareness there has to be "aviation-speak".
Correct English is rare, even in the UK, these days where there appears to be an entire generation of grunters and monosyllabic speakers. Aviation needs to rise above any sense of xenophobia or nationalism and recognise that the skies are the only "one world". Of course if we were to consider that Chinese is the most widely spoken language (in population terms) then maybe everyone involved with aviation should learn Chinese?? on second thoughts ... NO!
I wish a lot of pilots and ATC would tape-record themselves and realise how unintelligible they are! the world over!!
Key has to be clarity, accuracy and sky-wide comprehension! For now, and for the foreseeable future the language formerly known as English (from now on to be termed "aviation-speak") seems to be the most sensible one to use!
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Hi all,
Just curious, how would you rate spanish controller's english in the main?
Where have you heard best and worst english regarding your own professional experience in Spain?
Any funny/interesting/dangerous anecdotes?
Cheers,
Miguel A.
Just curious, how would you rate spanish controller's english in the main?
Where have you heard best and worst english regarding your own professional experience in Spain?
Any funny/interesting/dangerous anecdotes?
Cheers,
Miguel A.