FAA downgrades India's aviation safety ranking

[Wannabe Flyer]

Maid in Manhattan does not seem to want to go away primarily due to the understanding or lack of it between both parties. No inside knowledge except for the information and real life experience living in both places.

1) Maid went willingly and accepted conditions and pay and has not stated cruelty or slavery yet charges are filed under human trafickking and not under any less stringent act in the USA.

2) Common known fact for many here in India that this route is the best immigration route and ticket for a green card for the less qualified.

3) She was a live in maid and that is very hard to calculate her actual working hours. Also a common practice that all ask for money to be given at home and in most cases many aspects of their children's up bringing are often time footed by the family as well as many other expenses.

My Opinion: yes the law was violated by this diplomat as is being done by many others, however unlike claims of torture and in appropriate behaviour none have been levelled and yet a human trafficking charge vs a smaller mis demeanour charge of underpaying help has been taken, which stinks of something more. The US law does permit such exemptions on a case by case basis. This is compounded by the fact that their immediate family was evacuated from India citing harassment in total contravention of a democratic and legal system. Therefore if the USA cannot respect Indian legal systems i think there is no obligation for vice versa.

The publicity of this immigration route has now opened the doors for many more to do the same and I feel the US government should investigate the reality besides the wage issue on the entire issue and see if the person who has immigrated has been entirely truthful about her intentions.

Lesson to be learned: Hire the illegal immigrant in the USA itself and do not carry them with you. If caught you will be let of on a lesser penalty............. Case in point so many US senators......

Now back to the latest repercussion which I had predicted a few posts earlier

Boeing Says Air India Unhappy With 787 Dreamliner?s Reliability - Bloomberg

Air India to seek compensation from Boeing - The Times of India

An open threat to cancel the remaining aircraft orders as fuel consumption is 28% and not 37% lower than a 777...... Sounds like skewed logic to cancel a savings but then again this issue is definitely maid in Manahattan!

[av8r76]

This is hardly a tit for tat action. The DGCA has been under scrutiny for the better part of the last decade, diplomatic crisis or not. And each audit had forebearings of disaster. But these guys scraped through each time, which amazed me, because they truly are an inept and corrupt regulator.

And there really is no shame in being embarrassed about this because it truly IS embarrassing. As mentioned earlier this is actually a blessing in disguise. A byproduct of being a global player, as India wants to be, is being held up to global standards, which are, fortunately more exacting than the chalta hai/theek hai attitude which pervades the Indian way of doing things.

This is hopefully a wakeup call for the DGCA and Indian industry as a whole. But then again, I expected drastic changes in the way we fly after the Mangalore disaster. So not expecting any significant changes this time as well. The inertia of the juggernaut that is the Indian bureaucratic malaise needs a lot more than a momentary (hopefully) downgrade.

[Capt Apache]

The DGCA has been under scrutiny for the better part of the last decade, diplomatic crisis or not. And each audit had forebearings of disaster. But these guys scraped through each time, which amazed me, because they truly are an inept and corrupt regulator.

And that brings us to the question.How did they scrape through each time ?

A byproduct of being a global player, as India wants to be, is being held up to global standards, which are, fortunately more exacting than the chalta hai/theek hai attitude which pervades the Indian way of doing things.

I will have to concede some ground here.But why did they wake up to it all now ?.The standards here have always been more or less the same.It is not like they have touched a new low.

Read here: If I follow US standards, I will have to shut almost all drug facilities: G N Singh | Business Standard

@ wannabe flyer

The question that we really should be asking is,Why would a country as powerful and smart as America try to bully a poor,weak and friendly nation like India for the sake of a maid ?

The answer to all my questions lies in the timing of all these events.

[Wannabe Flyer]

@Apache: Seems you like answering your own questions!

But since you did ask do look at the Key American players in this Drama and the story will be a bit more clear.

1) A DA with huge political ambitions and wanting to show he will not be soft on people of his Country of Origin.

2) US Diplomat posted in India feeding him his view of the situation including those been fed to him as a sob story by the Father and mother of the victim who so happens to work with him.

3) Some big deals of US companies stuck due to the political situation with no sign of headway

4) A local election planning looming in the USA where republicans need to claw back after being out of power for 10 years. Seems all the players in this are Republicans.

5) Local NGO's in the USA who need to show they are doing good to justify donations......

These are my answers to a bizarre situation.

Next time hire the illegal South American maid who is there on her on steam (read who crawled across the border at night and did not fly in Business class on Air India with an IPAD and Valid Visa) and pay her the $7 an hour to cook and clean. I am sure the Diplomats Husband knew this was possible as he seems to have grown up in the USA as part of an immigrant family.

Now on to more posturing on the Boeing......

[captjns]

The Indian diplomat committed fraud on US soil. One would think the Indian DGCA would take punitive action against US interests and their citizens.


Wannabe... India is not the be all end all for Boeing. I don't think carriers with large outstanding would even consider joining India in boycotting Boeing. Fact be known, many Foreign companies have withdrawn their prospects of investing in India do to excessive cost along with the dealing with the government, both local and national, of doing business in India.

[Capt Apache]

You dont have to dig into the maid's and diplomats biography wannabe.It
is very simple.How is it that the US only decided to act on all these problems with elections looming in India.It is the timing of these events.Superpowers dont involve themselves in domestic issues (lol).They get involved when it has to do with regime change !

[Wannabe Flyer]

@apache: I think we both are saying about the same thing.....Elections at both ends and personal aspirations played a huge role. The miscalculation on the US DA side was the different reaction this time....after all in the past the Indian President has been searched and this was only a lowly diplomat.... Hence yes elections.

@captjns: What punitive actions can the DGCA taken against US citizens. I will not be surprised if we soon here of a US carrier having some clearance issues and some other cost enhancing issues shortly..... politicians are very patient. I think in typical knee jerk Indian Govt is harassing US diplomats in India.......

Never made a statement that it will be the end all and be all for Boeing, however remember it is also the defence sales and money talks B/S walks...... India might not be the big gun but in the same token has been one of the larger customers to Boeing as a whole......

Few foreign companies I see withdrawing but yes enough are complaining and waiting to see if the new Govt makes any moves. Once again long term numbers too lucrative to ignore and get into the bad books....and that is correct diplomacy which many US companies have mastered but the DA could not!

[av8r76]

You guys seem to be missing the core issue here. We deserved to be downgraded and that is what happened. I would turn it around and say we evaded the negative audit because of our relatively amicable relations with the Americans.
Now that the gloves are off all favours are off the table. I am all for looking for an external influencing connection in this but the bottom line is we got what we deserved. We need to claw out of this on our merit rather a favour doled out by the FAA. Please tell me this is not too much to ask for.
Is this really about the diplomatic fiasco? Did we not opt for the F-16/18's? Are we not ignoring the US led sanctions on Iran? Are we not the staunchest adversaries of a close US ally to the west? Maybe this is arm twisting tactics through Boeing for AI's claim for compensation for the 787 debacle. Will things get better once Modi takes office?
Linking this to global geopolitics is stretching it. Being in the industry for almost seven years now, one has to be really blind to the faults and shortcomings of the folks in Jor Bagh. We can make all the excuses we want but this was a long time coming. Not because we as individuals are not keeping it safe but only for the fact that there is almost no effective oversight of our operations. And what little oversight we do have is riddled with an epidemic of quid pro quo, personal vendettas and good old Indian style corruption.

[Capt Apache]

Now that the gloves are off all favours are off the table

So maybe there were favours then.That is 'geopolitics'

Linking this to global geopolitics is stretching it.

It would be 'stretching it' if this was an isolated event.But it isn't.

I disagree with you because you think the core issue here is safety.If the core issue really was safety, then the downgrade should have happened much much earlier.It looks to me like it is the US that has been blind to the faults of Jor Bag all these years.

Here is an extract from the link I provided earlier.It has an uncanny similarity to aviation.

You cannot equate the Indian regulator with the US one. We are still evolving and it will take us at least 10 years to reach that level. We do not have resources and infrastructure equivalent to those of US FDA. We have a total staff of 650, compared with US FDA's 13,000

[Wannabe Flyer]

Deserve to be downgraded possibly, should have been done earlier...

Need to pull socks up sure

DO not buy excuse that staff is only 650...... what is stopping you from getting 13,000? Definitely not the lack of any population..... guess not a preferred career choice.

Don't know if things could get better or worse due to one person it is a collective effort either way. Currently the effort seems to be to pull each other down.

See how fast the IOC got the flag up in Sochi once the idiots at Siri Fort pulled their socks up?

I am a bit lost about Jor Bagh...... please enlighten me how this is playing a role (pure ignorance)

[Capt Apache]

Here we go.Its in today's paper.
US finally breaks 2002 ice, Ambassador Nancy Powell to meet Narendra Modi | The Indian Express

The US move marks a complete shift from its stance of having nothing to do with Modi, whose visa it cancelled in 2005 under a domestic law on the issue of “severe violations of religious freedom” and had refused to review its policy.

I think we are getting used to this 'complete shift of stance' stuff.

[av8r76]

Not equating our standards to the US ones is like Bhanot saying Indian hygiene standards are not the same as the worlds. I will reiterate the fact that once you claim and harp on about being a global player don't shy away from meeting global standards. And not just meeting, but leading in the implementation of those standards. The FAA has never been blind to the issues affecting DGCA. They may have chosen to overlook them but these guys have the resources, expertise and experience to accurately gauge the veracity of the claims made by DGCA.
The multilateral nature of aviation means that absolute standards have to be met for consistency of safety across regions. You can't evade these standards by claiming lack of manpower. The behemoth that is the Indian Government surely has enough babus to fill these vacancies. Whether they are competent is a whole other matter.
Apache, you just don't get it. Your nationalist jingoistic pride is blinding you to the fact that something is seriously wrong with the way things are running here.
Blame who you want to or whatever circumstances there are surrounding this downgrade, but the fact is, once again, that it has happened and we have to get out of it by making tangible progress and not by manipulating unrelated issues to get out of this one.

[captjns]

All one has to do is visit the offices of the DGCA in Delhi. Words not necessary. The favoritism the DGCA pays to AI. Remember the strike? Remember they AI pilots were out for an extended period of time as they called in sick, requiring a full blown medical at their local A/F facility? Did that happen? Nope.


The DGCA does not rule with an equal hand. Or perhaps they use the motto: "Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others".

[Capt Apache]

@ av8r76
How can you so conveniently say that the FAA may have chosen to overlook those issues.Do you just choose to overlook your own safety standards when you operate your aircraft ?

When did I defend DGCA or talk of national pride ?

I have no issues with the downgrade.But the fact is that we never met their Standards.Never! What I am saying is that the motivation behind this downgrade, and its timing are both suspect.So I ask again.Why did they wait till elections to take all these actions ?

America should stop playing ping pong with safety before teaching others.Now you are safe, now you are not.Now we ban you, now we love you.They do not adhere to their own rules and they want others to follow them

[Sky Dancer]

Well said Apache , the FAA should be the last people on earth preaching to others about safety. Ask yourselves an interesting question , when was the last time there was a fatal airline crash in India and in the USA , your answer is right there.

[ELAC]

Ask yourselves an interesting question , when was the last time there was a fatal airline crash in India and in the USA , your answer is right there.

Nothing like being able to show a stunning lack of comprehension for both history and statistics all in one sentence, is there?

More practically, anyone who has had experience with the safety oversight in both jurisdictions is well aware of the many shortcomings of the DGCA. The safety of aviation in India would be far better served if those weaknesses were openly acknowledged and change was demanded by those within Indian aviation instead of having to rely on the actions of other countries regulators to get the job done.

Chucking stones at the FAA just because you don't like their message is just the sort of reflexive nationalism that seems, at times, to have held back India on a number of fronts.

[Capt Apache]

The safety of aviation in India would be far better served if those weaknesses were openly acknowledged

I'm sorry if I am not so mesmerized with FAA or America as some of the others here.So FAA has no weaknesses is it ? You preach us to acknowledge our faults, and you begin with the premise that you are perfect.Brilliant !

[Wannabe Flyer]

Does any one have a list of the issues raised by FAA. Might give us all an objective view and to prioritise in some order the seriousness of these deficiencies. Sometimes a rigid yet mundane requirement becomes the stick with which to beat one with, so would be great to see this checklist.

What needs to be fixed should be and a stick as well as a carrot is good.

[itsbrokenagain]

Here is the audit,...

http://dgca.nic.in/public_notice/PN-FAA.pdf

[pilotbaba]

. I'm sorry if I am not so mesmerized with FAA or America as some of the others here.So FAA has no weaknesses is it ? You preach us to acknowledge our faults, and you begin with the premise that you are perfect.Brilliant !

The system of aviation operations under FAA supervision may not be 100% perfect, but given the size of operations that the FAA oversees and the number of departures that take place every hour in the USA, the safety results are by and large pretty decent, much better than rest of the world...

The number of small & medium sized GA airplanes that operate from 1 small airport in USA like say KTMB, Kendal Tmi-Ami, or even KFXE, which many of you would remember from your days at Dean, are more than the total flights operating in entire India...

Remember all these small, medium and large GA pistons, turbo props & jets fly in & out of the worlds busiest airspaces every hour & my friend planes are not falling from the sky....

But that does not mean I am downplaying India at all, I just want the DGCA to move their bloody lazy bums and do some actual work to make the country's aviation environment better...