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Forget Expats.. where are the Indian Commanders going ?

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Forget Expats.. where are the Indian Commanders going ?

Old 15th Apr 2010, 05:58
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Forget Expats.. where are the Indian Commanders going ?

Offlate.. I have been noticing an surge in the number of Skippers
leaving the indian companies and going on towards either the desert
or the across the bay.. Especially the ones on the A320 and B737.
In last 2-3 weeks about 3 captains (2 of them were very senior check
pilots) left IC for EK and I believe it was for the A330/340 Direct Entry.
Also I have heard that in kingfisher about 15 Indian Commanders Quit
to go to Qatar and Etihad. Another noticable point is most of these guys
are in their early 40s or late 30s.
I was wondering if this is happening on other carriers as well ?

Cheers

IAC967.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 06:19
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Hence the need for more expat commanders
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 07:13
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Supply & Demand. A case of simple economics!
Applies to pilots too you know.

Aeronotix
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 07:32
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Supply & Demand. A case of simple economics!
Applies to pilots too you know.
Yes Aeronotix it does apply to pilots, but not in this case. There's ample Demand and acute shortage in supply of Indian Captain's in India.

The driving force here is the Money, the Incentives (House, Car, City), the International Experience (both Flying and Living) and not to forget, Personal Choice.

Or may be they are plain bored here.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 09:51
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Another reason is the stupid medical procedures..
As i said one of the captain is so fit as an athelete and super healthy
but these guys quoted some thing stupid and grounded him a month
and out of frustration he moved to EK cleared his medicals with out
any issues and his family moved into dubai..

Those guys at IAM and AFCME think they re doing medicals for
Sukhoi 32 Pilots.. god damn i dont cross 25 degrees bank in a normal flight..
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 10:49
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I guess at least in the light of above exodus people will understand the complex role played by expats in sustaining lower pay packages for local pilots.

Most locals will be willing to jump in with "expats are too expensive arguments", but will ignore how subtly a small number of expensive expats keep a sufficient downward pressure on local salaries and prove an overall cost savings for airliners which employ them, and are way too reluctant to do away with them.

Of course all this is without any willful complicity of expats, they are not to blame for it.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 11:58
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Another equally (perhaps more) important reason for a big or growing private airline in India to have a good number of expats (albeit higher salary/perks in comparison to his/her national counterpart) would simply be to maintain absolute power and prevent any kind of a united action by the national pilots.

Like the strike or mass sick leave done by Jet Airways pilots last year.

The bean counters would want to avoid another such situation and Im sure they have short or long term strategies in place already for that.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 12:38
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Most Pilots in India, have had salary cuts and rescinded promises.

If salaries are not restored, many more will leave for foreign shores..
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 13:01
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Most Pilots in India, have had salary cuts and rescinded promises.

If salaries are not restored, many more will leave for foreign shores..
TADAAA......
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 15:23
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@Jimmy

Surely a pilot coming to work in a country for a higher salary than the local pilots only serves to increase the 'market rate' for the job.

Wouldn't it really be detrimental to t&c in india if people were willing to come and work here for lower salaries than the local pilots?

How could a company justify to its shareholders that they are paying high salaries to their commanders if they can find immigrants who are willing to work for less, or even worse willing to buy their jobs as you are advocating on another thread?

Can you please explain to us by what mechanism you think higher expat salaries are causing lower local salaries for local crew?
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 16:27
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I still am trying to figure out gimmy's theory as well? And what perks do expats get other than housing paid that the locals don't get?? Don't tell me time off either. Most locals have 5 or less overnights. Spend two months away from your family at a time and then tell me the 2 weeks off are a perk. And you will always have to pay an expat more than a local to live in the conditions most Indian cities are in. No one would come if the pay wasn't worth it. We make more, but our standard of living is way below the locals. Every fo I fly with has live in maids some have more than one. With the pay I receive I still am a middle class joe. Gimmy live in a place that you can drink the tap water for a few years, where malaria isn't still a factor, where there is a sewer and water treatment facility in the city, parks that kids can actually play at. And then tell me you shouldn't be paid more to come work here. This place has some neat places, but lets knot kid ourselves your country has some standard of living issues you must really work on and until you do you will have locals who want to leave. Not only do they make more money, but they have clean air and a nice quality of life outside there house.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 20:32
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Before I write anything more I will like to state the following about my personal stance..

1. I don't hate expats, or I am jealous of their higher packages.
2. I sincerely hope labor of all sorts should be free to move across borders
without any encumberances and complete reciprocity.
3. I am not a xenophobe
4. Yes I want my government to be sincere about the expat phase-out
deadline.


@152wiseguy

Surely a pilot coming to work in a country for a higher salary than the local pilots only serves to increase the 'market rate' for the job.
  1. When one talks about market the buyer and seller must have freedom to engage in a fair bargain. For workers this bargaining is largely a collective bargain. Expat workers who do not participate in the industrial action, allows employers to have unfair power during these actions.
  2. Expats usually have much less rights than local workers, they are sometimes restricted from changing employers, this restriction itself undermines the expats salary even though it may be higher than the locals. Of course they need to be compensated for forgoing these rights.
  3. Availability of expats reduces the demands for locals and hence the price which locals get for selling their services.


Wouldn't it really be detrimental to t&c in india if people were willing to come and work here for lower salaries than the local pilots?
I agree to this. But statement cannot be reversed, A certain group of workers getting higher salaries provides little or no motivation for employer to increase the salary of certain other group, unless there is legal backing on it.



@drive73
Drive, I must start with the disclaimer that I am not jealous of your perks, you are working for what you thought as a workable package.
The 2 week offs after 8 weeks on is not a perk, its a necessity I am sorry for you that you could not find a flying job which would have allowed you more time with your family.

We make more, but our standard of living is way below the locals. Every fo I fly with has live in maids some have more than one. With the pay I receive I still am a middle class joe.
Thats largely because the local f/o doesn't have to maintain a family in the costly first world country. The live in maid in India costs around 100-150 USD a month. The costs of maids would have been higher if Bangladesh were not supplying more and more maids every day. I am sorry for the live-in maid too, she doesn't even get an 8week on 2week off schedule.

Gimmy live in a place that you can drink the tap water for a few years, where malaria isn't still a factor, where there is a sewer and water treatment facility in the city, parks that kids can actually play at. And then tell me you shouldn't be paid more to come work here.

I have lived and traveled in almost all of the India, big cities with sewage treatment plants, small towns without ones, villages with only drinking water supply is well-water. I had my share of mosquito bites. I had been to the USA, traveled and lived in several towns along the route 66. But I don't have to do all this to understand that you need to be paid more, I am just saying the locals need to be paid more also, and the maid too needs to be paid more.


This place has some neat places, but lets knot kid ourselves your country has some standard of living issues you must really work on and until you do you will have locals who want to leave. Not only do they make more money, but they have clean air and a nice quality of life outside there house.
We are working on it Sir. For some two centuries we continuously lost our wealth, we have been on our own just for six decades, I am proud its attractive enough a place for few expat pilots to leave their families abroad and work here.

I know love for flying can take pilots everywhere.
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Old 16th Apr 2010, 18:00
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They are absolutly one of the best paid labor in India. Not that it is not deserving, but they live way beyond what most pilots in the world do.
Jimmy, I would like to remind you while you may be in a hurry to get ride of all foriegn workers in your country and only take care of yourselfs, you should remember there are a few countries in this world who provide India with hundreds of thousands of jobs. You folks have no problem taking foriegn employment, but don't see the long term benifits of opening your country up to others.
I have flown with several great Indian pilots in the US. The difference between those I fly with there and many of the guys complaining at my present company is the first were qualified. You can't even flight instruct with 250hrs in the US. I love it when I am told by a 500hr guy that I shouldn't be here because the US won't employ him. They would employ him if he had a green card and was actually qualified to be hired.
Don't get too near sighted to see how many jobs are provided to your country by the countries of the pilots you want gone. And remember for every job sent to India, a job is lost in that country. I think you will agree we have lost many more jobs to India than the expats have taken. It's not even close..
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 00:20
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@drive73
The open border and open economy argument is for the uneducated ones.

Code:
Per Capita External Debt
 UK      $150,673 USA      $43,646 France   $76,718 India       $130
No, I am not saying that west is broke, I am saying that they have way too much access to other's money, despite 'open borders'.

I am too selfish to get rid of all the foreign workers, I just want to get rid of expensive foreign workers, maid from Bangladesh is welcome, she just helps keep th PPP of INR up.

You folks have no problem taking foriegn employment, but don't see the long term benifits of opening your country up to others.
I am not having any problem taking foreign employment, just like you don't have. But I respect the rights of your countrymen to put barriers to entry of foreign labor, the barriers are already there. Same way I will expect others to respect that right for us also.

I don't see any long term benefits from 'selectively open borders' may be you can help me see some.


I think you will agree we have lost many more jobs to India than the expats have taken. It's not even close..
That I completely agree to.

Last edited by jimmygill; 17th Apr 2010 at 00:37.
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 03:13
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@drive 73

I think you will agree we have lost many more jobs to India than the expats have taken. It's not even close
I disagree Sir.Its not just jobs.Show your 500 hr intransigent f/o this article

Business Report - Home - Indian expats send home $55 billion in 2009: report

Thats 100 billion in last 2 years.Indian Captains leaving for other countries will add a bit more in 2010 I think

Last edited by Capt Apache; 17th Apr 2010 at 03:35.
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 05:00
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Thats 100 billion in last 2 years.Indian Captains leaving for other countries will add a bit more in 2010 I think
Hee hee.. interesting perspective..

IAC967
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 05:15
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Also I have heard that in kingfisher about 15 Indian Commanders Quit
to go to Qatar and Etihad.
The last DEC interviewed for Etihad was June 2008.

No-one from Kingfisher joining us here as Captain or First Officer.

Last edited by Severely Jetlagged; 17th Apr 2010 at 06:09.
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 08:58
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Peace of mind

More than the salary its the "peace of mind" people are looking for, I think Indian pilots are getting fed up of a lot of things like -

The shitty managers with absoultely little experience and no understanding of airline operations running them like a local mom-n-pop shop.

The so-called doctors who sit on the medical dept who probably cannot prescribe anything more than an aspirin, putting people down for the most absurd reasons.

The constant inefficiency of the whole aviation system in India, which just gets worse with every pasing day.

And much, much more....

In the end, people need a life not a struggle....
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 09:17
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This is my point apache, Your folks take other jobs in other countries more than any other country. Your article attests to this. I would imagine that you now would agree.
Jimmy, If you look at any progressive first world country they have a couple of things in common. One being a fairly diverse work force. If you travel through europe, us, aus they all allow foriegn workers. Foriegn workers have very little to do with the wests debt problem. Living beyond means is the primary cause. The west has a problem with this. From the government to the people.
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 09:41
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Incorrect

Drive73 you are incorrect there - US, EU and AU allow pilots only from there own country or another first world country...You need to be a citizen to get a job in these countries or more specifically have a work permit, and how do u get this permit - only by being a citizen(This is probably only for the aviation industry though)
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