Indians better than Britons in English
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Jimmygill, I have mentioned before that I do not always agree with you on some topics but I utterly respect your arguements. What you have written above is brilliant.
Children like Apache should be thankful that there are pilots like you who offer intelligence, direction and professionalism. I sincerely hope you can be the good and see it evolve as you do deserve.
A pleasure as always, Sir.
Children like Apache should be thankful that there are pilots like you who offer intelligence, direction and professionalism. I sincerely hope you can be the good and see it evolve as you do deserve.
A pleasure as always, Sir.
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So now do you get it guys....Our Phd holders all bought their degrees (some of them joined Nasa too)....Only couple of Indians work for Microsoft....We cant do R/T or fly aeroplanes like these Champions and above all IF I just shut my mouth we will make it big in Aviation......Brilliant Jimmy Brilliant 
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Oh boy, I have been reading this thread and thought I will not get involved in this thread but the ignorance that Apache shows here is appalling. It also portrays that most Indian Aviators think like him, which is not the case I am afraid.
Most pilots and ATCO's I know are striving for change and improving themselves. In my company, we are offered accent reduction courses so that we do not sound like Abu from Simpsons. I think our major problem is the rate at which we speak at rather than accent. I remember when I first flew in JFK airspace, the NY accent wasn't the easiest to understand but they did speak S L O W L Y.
In India, we have more modern ATC radars than most of the US cities but they are not put to use here. Those of you who fly in CCU know how bad it is when the ATC ask you to slow to minimum approach speed when you are on 30 mile final, if quarried they will ask you to maintain minimum clean speed (do ATC not realize that every aircrafts min clean is different and they'd be better off giving specific speeds to follow.)
It does not matter how many PhD's we Indians have or how many scholars are working abroad. As far as aviation is concerned, we are dealing with people who are already working here. May be it is time to start sending ATCOs from India on deputation to other countries, or perhaps some expat ATCs can be employed to teach the current lot.
Apache I am sure you are one of the pilots who like to "Confirm" every transmission in Indian airspace. If in doubt by all means confirm but confirming every single transmission is insane.
My suggestion to all let us stop answering Apache and the thread will die its own death soon.
Most pilots and ATCO's I know are striving for change and improving themselves. In my company, we are offered accent reduction courses so that we do not sound like Abu from Simpsons. I think our major problem is the rate at which we speak at rather than accent. I remember when I first flew in JFK airspace, the NY accent wasn't the easiest to understand but they did speak S L O W L Y.
In India, we have more modern ATC radars than most of the US cities but they are not put to use here. Those of you who fly in CCU know how bad it is when the ATC ask you to slow to minimum approach speed when you are on 30 mile final, if quarried they will ask you to maintain minimum clean speed (do ATC not realize that every aircrafts min clean is different and they'd be better off giving specific speeds to follow.)
It does not matter how many PhD's we Indians have or how many scholars are working abroad. As far as aviation is concerned, we are dealing with people who are already working here. May be it is time to start sending ATCOs from India on deputation to other countries, or perhaps some expat ATCs can be employed to teach the current lot.
Apache I am sure you are one of the pilots who like to "Confirm" every transmission in Indian airspace. If in doubt by all means confirm but confirming every single transmission is insane.
My suggestion to all let us stop answering Apache and the thread will die its own death soon.
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Why don't Indian pilots get jobs anywhere else than India? Cause nobody wants to hire a pilot who does not even match up to the minimums. Thats the truth. You guys have just lowered the minimums so MUCH. The owner, trust me, the owner og the school I used to work at told me, the first day, '' Watch out, Indians will even sell their grandma for a penny'', and also '' Don't expect too much, get them done, nobody will see their skills in India, they will jump straight into an airbus''. Why did he say that? You can not compare an aviation industry like this, with the mother of aviation, home of aviation , namely USA.
Why do you guys come to the USA to become pilots when everything is so much better in India??
I do not know why you started this thread when you know that everything you are saying is not true. You mentioned some big companies in India, to show off. Do you really want to compare them with British or American companies? You mentioned may be 5, but dude here we can mention 5000.
Multi tasking and common sense, are two things my Indian students did not know about. And believe me, I have trained more than 30 Indians...
So please do not compare a C172 with an Airbus 380...
Why do you guys come to the USA to become pilots when everything is so much better in India??
I do not know why you started this thread when you know that everything you are saying is not true. You mentioned some big companies in India, to show off. Do you really want to compare them with British or American companies? You mentioned may be 5, but dude here we can mention 5000.
Multi tasking and common sense, are two things my Indian students did not know about. And believe me, I have trained more than 30 Indians...
So please do not compare a C172 with an Airbus 380...
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Capt APache does not represent a mainstream view. His comments are his opinion only
First off
It is Apache's opinion and he is entitled to it. No matter how much we all disagree with him, that is still the beauty of a Democracy ANYWHERE in the world.
That said, I am entitled to my opinion on his opinion.
He is obviously frustrated, ill informed and living in medieval times. One would have thought an aviator who crosses international boundries more regularly than anyone else, has an opportunity to interact with different cultures on a daily basis would be more open minded. I for one just love interacting with different cultures and nationalities and learning more.
I agree with Jimmy 100% when he and I qoute says "The average Indian doesn't stand a chance of appearance in highly stratified Indian society."
India has 1.2 billion people so if 34% make it what about the rest? Living in abject poverty, thrown out and shamed for scoring less. I am sure if there were a billion Germans/Japaneses, then NASA might have been a different place.
Capt look at the changing times. The Education minister of India has woken up to the reality that the mugging system is not inclusive and does not give a wider demographic a chance. The much haloed 10 + 2 is going to be a thing of the past as India moves to a closer system of global education.
Capt you ask if one has heard of Infosys, TATA and Wipro, Let me tell you Microsoft, Boeing, and SIEMENS do not need to even ask such questions.
Lets be frank, India is not the best and the US has worked hard to reach where they are today as have Europe, and the rest of Asia. This does not mean that someday India cannot be there. Hopefully it will. However with attitude like yours and chest thumping like you seem to be doing on this forum, we will need at least 20 more Jimmy Gill kinda guys to undo some of
you spill.
My Opinion: Majority of Indians do not subscribe to this thought process and the ones that do are entitled to voice their opinion in a peaceful manner which do not infringe on the rights of all others.
I still stand by the comment it all lies in the education system one is brought up in and has nothing to do with ethnicity! 2nd generation Indian origin people around the world are so different in their thoughts then the average Comman man in India
It is Apache's opinion and he is entitled to it. No matter how much we all disagree with him, that is still the beauty of a Democracy ANYWHERE in the world.
That said, I am entitled to my opinion on his opinion.
He is obviously frustrated, ill informed and living in medieval times. One would have thought an aviator who crosses international boundries more regularly than anyone else, has an opportunity to interact with different cultures on a daily basis would be more open minded. I for one just love interacting with different cultures and nationalities and learning more.
I agree with Jimmy 100% when he and I qoute says "The average Indian doesn't stand a chance of appearance in highly stratified Indian society."
India has 1.2 billion people so if 34% make it what about the rest? Living in abject poverty, thrown out and shamed for scoring less. I am sure if there were a billion Germans/Japaneses, then NASA might have been a different place.
Capt look at the changing times. The Education minister of India has woken up to the reality that the mugging system is not inclusive and does not give a wider demographic a chance. The much haloed 10 + 2 is going to be a thing of the past as India moves to a closer system of global education.
Capt you ask if one has heard of Infosys, TATA and Wipro, Let me tell you Microsoft, Boeing, and SIEMENS do not need to even ask such questions.
Lets be frank, India is not the best and the US has worked hard to reach where they are today as have Europe, and the rest of Asia. This does not mean that someday India cannot be there. Hopefully it will. However with attitude like yours and chest thumping like you seem to be doing on this forum, we will need at least 20 more Jimmy Gill kinda guys to undo some of
you spill.My Opinion: Majority of Indians do not subscribe to this thought process and the ones that do are entitled to voice their opinion in a peaceful manner which do not infringe on the rights of all others.
I still stand by the comment it all lies in the education system one is brought up in and has nothing to do with ethnicity! 2nd generation Indian origin people around the world are so different in their thoughts then the average Comman man in India
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@DesiPilot
Greetings desi pilot, a nice post in an otherwise 'going-to-be-dirt-thread'.
Its true, not most of the Indian aviators think like Apache, and things are improving. Its a challenging task for all of the aviation community.
I had the privilege of flying in five Class Bravo airspaces in USA, namely KSFO, KLAX, KLAS, KIAH and KCVG, variation in accent was not that much an issue, occasionally one will come across stressed controllers with high rate of speech, but "say again slowly, please", worked pretty well almost always.
You are spot on, in fact the ATC Guild of India has been making lots of recommendations to hire more ATCs and to abandon recruitment 'standards' like "Must be B.Engg (elctronics)". There was a move to bring ATC licensing under purview of DGCA instead of it being in control of AAI, but I guess that Idea has been shelved.
Greetings desi pilot, a nice post in an otherwise 'going-to-be-dirt-thread'.
Oh boy, I have been reading this thread and thought I will not get involved in this thread but the ignorance that Apache shows here is appalling. It also portrays that most Indian Aviators think like him, which is not the case I am afraid.
Most pilots and ATCO's I know are striving for change and improving themselves. In my company, we are offered accent reduction courses so that we do not sound like Abu from Simpsons. I think our major problem is the rate at which we speak at rather than accent. I remember when I first flew in JFK airspace, the NY accent wasn't the easiest to understand but they did speak S L O W L Y.
It does not matter how many PhD's we Indians have or how many scholars are working abroad. As far as aviation is concerned, we are dealing with people who are already working here. May be it is time to start sending ATCOs from India on deputation to other countries, or perhaps some expat ATCs can be employed to teach the current lot.
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This is such a funny thread, obviously posted by someone who has no real flying experience but for some uneducated reason thinks Indian ATC is not bad.
No where else I have been in the world if we ask for a climb do we have to coordinate with the next sector ourselves.
No where else in the world do the controllers speak so fast that you cannot understand them.
No where else in the world do controllers seem to get angry, speak quicker and talk louder if you ask them to repeat something.
On one flight I called Ahmedabad on entering their sector, no answer but could hear his replies to other aircraft so tried again but nothing, Tried again in a few minutes but nothing, tried again in a few minutes but nothing. At this point he replied to another aircraft and this other aircraft then informed the controller that I was calling him also. The controllers response was he knows I can hear him but I do not want to speak to him yet.
Have you ever listened to Indian HF, there really is no point trying to use it.
You are correct about the scores Indians get in exams as it is facts from an article you posted but you obviously have no idea at all about the state of English and professionalism in Indian ATC. No where else I have flown is it as bad.
No where else I have been in the world if we ask for a climb do we have to coordinate with the next sector ourselves.
No where else in the world do the controllers speak so fast that you cannot understand them.
No where else in the world do controllers seem to get angry, speak quicker and talk louder if you ask them to repeat something.
On one flight I called Ahmedabad on entering their sector, no answer but could hear his replies to other aircraft so tried again but nothing, Tried again in a few minutes but nothing, tried again in a few minutes but nothing. At this point he replied to another aircraft and this other aircraft then informed the controller that I was calling him also. The controllers response was he knows I can hear him but I do not want to speak to him yet.
Have you ever listened to Indian HF, there really is no point trying to use it.
You are correct about the scores Indians get in exams as it is facts from an article you posted but you obviously have no idea at all about the state of English and professionalism in Indian ATC. No where else I have flown is it as bad.
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Why don't Indian pilots get jobs anywhere else than India? Cause nobody wants to hire a pilot who does not even match up to the minimums. Thats the truth. You guys have just lowered the minimums so MUCH.
For any conscientious flight safety inspector this admission should have been enough to initiate certificate action against the flight school and may be a check-ride for each of the instructors at that school.
The owner, trust me, the owner og the school I used to work at told me, the first day, '' Watch out, Indians will even sell their grandma for a penny'', and also '' Don't expect too much, get them done, nobody will see their skills in India, they will jump straight into an airbus''. Why did he say that? You can not compare an aviation industry like this, with the mother of aviation, home of aviation , namely USA.
Philippines or may be just the another school across the runway.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you guys come to the USA to become pilots when everything is so much better in India??
I don't know how you managed to get that reputation.
Multi tasking and common sense, are two things my Indian students did not know about. And believe me, I have trained more than 30 Indians...
Exactly the two things you didn't teach them, or you didn't deem that PTS required out of commercial pilots. Or may be you thought, "I just want to build hours. Why disturb the system?"
30 students is 120 Practical Tests translates to about 40,000 USD in test fees alone. Venality is not particular to any race.
I know of at least one DPE in some Western Pacific FSDO who lost his Certificate as he was giving away a very abbreviated Instrument Rating check to a FAA Flight Safety Inspector in disguise. FAA Inspector was not posing as an Indian student, neither was the DPE an Indian.
Imagine the conversation:
The Tainted DPE: "Congratulations you are now Instrument Rated."
The FAA Inspector: "Thank you sir, but am sorry to tell you that you are no more a DPE."
The FAA Inspector: "Thank you sir, but am sorry to tell you that you are no more a DPE."
Venality just like stupidity and intellect is common to all races.
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Capt. Apache,
I have hundreds of relatives and friends settled in the USA and UK and I can tell you for sure none of them give two hoots to what Indians in India think about them.
It is only the Indians living in India who are sometimes obsessed with questionable and vague statistics like the ones mentioned in this news article.
And since when did you start believing word-for-word the speeches and figures put up by some politician in India ?
I have hundreds of relatives and friends settled in the USA and UK and I can tell you for sure none of them give two hoots to what Indians in India think about them.
It is only the Indians living in India who are sometimes obsessed with questionable and vague statistics like the ones mentioned in this news article.
And since when did you start believing word-for-word the speeches and figures put up by some politician in India ?
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@
shanx
why are we even responding
??
i think many, including wannabeflyer and jimmy have explained it well that most of us if not all don't subscribe to his personal views.
at the risk of drawing flak from some quarters, here i would chose to introspect and rectify whats wrong with me rather than indulge in self righteous mumbo jumbo of useless facts and figures..
I think captain tried to be the flag bearer for us but as it turns out more and more of us have excused ourselves of such futile school of thought..
As someone said let this thread die its death.. it has done more damage than good to the respect the Indian aviation community has on this forum.
shanx
why are we even responding
??i think many, including wannabeflyer and jimmy have explained it well that most of us if not all don't subscribe to his personal views.
at the risk of drawing flak from some quarters, here i would chose to introspect and rectify whats wrong with me rather than indulge in self righteous mumbo jumbo of useless facts and figures..
I think captain tried to be the flag bearer for us but as it turns out more and more of us have excused ourselves of such futile school of thought..
As someone said let this thread die its death.. it has done more damage than good to the respect the Indian aviation community has on this forum.
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Its utterly disgusting.You guys have no pride at all in your country.And why....just coz some of you probably havent got a job yet.....It is utterly disgusting....People actually died to set this nation free....And you are all so disconnected from its heritage....You give me the impression that you truly beleive there is nothing good about this place at all....
Of course its not.But you guys make it sound like its the worst country on the planet.I am not chest thumping.I am completely mindful of the weaknesses of my country.But I am mindful of its strengths too.
India is not the best
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Its utterly disgusting.You guys have no pride at all in your country.And why....just coz some of you probably havent got a job yet.....
First off, what makes you think none of us have pride in our country ?
Have you voted in elections ? Do you have a voter ID card ? Have you tried to educate your maid servant/house-hold help (if any) about how to get registered in electoral rolls (something which is as easy as filling out two forms available online, printing them and dropping them off in your nearest EC office) ??
Only a moron would be frustrated and blame the country entirely if he/she is not gainfully employed as a pilot.
And by the way, getting employed as a commercial pilot in India has NOTHING to do with your ability or merit (for 200 hour freshers).
All 200 hour pilots employed in airlines in India are PURE PRODUCTS OF PULL OR PROVIDENCE.
The industry is cyclic and anyone and everyone with a CPL at the RIGHT time (or with the right CONNECTIONS) will get a job, regardless of merit.
It is all about TIMING or CONNECTIONS (or both) and nothing else.
It is utterly disgusting....People actually died to set this nation free....And you are all so disconnected from its heritage....You give me the impression that you truly beleive there is nothing good about this place at all....
When you have divorced parents, a wife beating father, filthy language being hurled at each other at home, family fights over money and property, cigarettes, marijuana, cocaine in school etc etc ... such things have a tremendous spill over effect on to society and greatly on the next generation.
If you see my posts in "You know you're in the sub-continent ..", you'll see that I gave appropriate replies when someone ridiculed our country crossing the limits of humour.
The present state of affairs of this country is all because of accumulated neglect, apathy, and gradual and steady decline in the family structure/stability of households in India.
Last edited by shanx; 31st Mar 2010 at 14:59.
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Good grief Apache, you are embarrassing us India’s! You sound like a small time politician (i.e. ignoramus, hoodlum, crook, imbecile…).
What is your experience level? Are you even a Pilot?
[email protected]
What is your experience level? Are you even a Pilot?
[email protected]
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Its utterly disgusting.You guys have no pride at all in your country.And why....just coz some of you probably havent got a job yet.....It is utterly disgusting....People actually died to set this nation free....And you are all so disconnected from its heritage....You give me the impression that you truly beleive there is nothing good about this place at all....
Of course its not.But you guys make it sound like its the worst country on the planet.I am not chest thumping.I am completely mindful of the weaknesses of my country.But I am mindful of its strengths too.
Of course its not.But you guys make it sound like its the worst country on the planet.I am not chest thumping.I am completely mindful of the weaknesses of my country.But I am mindful of its strengths too.
1) I have been back in India for four years now, I have not pissed on the road side.
2) In four years I have not bribed anyone, issue of my Indian ATPL was delayed by 4 months because I refused to pay INR 4000 in bribe.
3) I treat people nicely, I do not pay money to beggars however I support NGO's that are helping beggars.
4) I do not throw garbage out of my car.
I can go on and on and on but I am sure it will not penetrate your thick skull.
As for being jobless, well I took a huge paycut when I moved to India. I have been very fortunate that I did work as a flight instructor, had my own flight school, worked as CFI and Head of Training and also worked as a JAA flight instructor and flight examiner. Yes, I do have a job in India but by the sounds of it you are jobless and venting out here.
Come to think of it, first time in 11 years since I have been on PPRuNe I am going to use this beautiful tool- ignore button. I have two choices- I can stoop down to your level or ignore you; I choose later. Have a good life.
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"It's confirmed" ?
"...get top grades than" ?
And what is this General Certificate of School Education?
Is this, perhaps, an alternative examination to the General Certificate of Secondary Education undertaken by British pupils at the conclusion of year ten?
I find it impossible to take this "Times of India" article, claiming Indian superiority in the English language, very seriously if this is the best they can do.
"...get top grades than" ?
And what is this General Certificate of School Education?
Is this, perhaps, an alternative examination to the General Certificate of Secondary Education undertaken by British pupils at the conclusion of year ten?
I find it impossible to take this "Times of India" article, claiming Indian superiority in the English language, very seriously if this is the best they can do.
Last edited by Blacksheep; 31st Mar 2010 at 21:37.
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some years ago, Fareed Zakaria, in his capacity as editor of Newsweek presented an article explaining the reasons behind the rise of an Indian presence in top institutions and companies worldwide. his subject of investigation was the IIM Ahmedebad's position as one of the best producers of MBA's, whose graduates went on to leadership roles in many companies.
1. the ability of students to converse in at least 3 languages
2. a trend of academic excellence due to a strong fundamental culture
3. a stable extended family environment
4. a better than working knowledge of English, which opens up access to a
whole litany of books, manuals & technical publications.
5. a lack of opportunity in India
this resulted in many Indians excelling in various fields like IT, management etc. sadly, it is my opinion that the aviation sector has not evolved.
there can be no comparison of the many brilliant engineers and managers the country produces, with that of the flying community and aviation sector.
1. the ability of students to converse in at least 3 languages
2. a trend of academic excellence due to a strong fundamental culture
3. a stable extended family environment
4. a better than working knowledge of English, which opens up access to a
whole litany of books, manuals & technical publications.
5. a lack of opportunity in India
this resulted in many Indians excelling in various fields like IT, management etc. sadly, it is my opinion that the aviation sector has not evolved.
there can be no comparison of the many brilliant engineers and managers the country produces, with that of the flying community and aviation sector.
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sadly, it is my opinion that the aviation sector has not evolved.
there can be no comparison of the many brilliant engineers and managers the country produces, with that of the flying community and aviation sector.
there can be no comparison of the many brilliant engineers and managers the country produces, with that of the flying community and aviation sector.
Aviation sector has following entry barriers:
Pilots
1. Need to have lots of money to begin with.
2. Need to have contacts in the industry to get a job.
3. Its hard to replace an incumbant
Mechanics:
1. Must be willing to work for near zero wages during internship.
2. Limited opportunities for quality on-job-learning.
ATC:
1. Must have a B Engg in Electric
2. AAI is the sole employer and trainer
3. AAI has no hire and fire policy
On the other hand only thing required to getting into IIM (Top B School) or IIT (Top Engg School) is hard work and intellect.
Amidst all the bribe and nepotism prevalent in country its hard to believe that entry into an IIT or IIM is fair.
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as apart from people who need to write a whole page to express themselves...
Maybe Rdr studied outside India and his Eloquent English is a by product of that.
Its utterly disgusting.You guys have no pride at all in your country.And why....just coz some of you probably havent got a job yet.....It is utterly disgusting....People actually died to set this nation free....And you are all so disconnected from its heritage....You give me the impression that you truly beleive there is nothing good about this place at all....
Rdr
Look beyond the IIM and IIT and tell me if the same can be said. Compare the top 200 universities in India with say the top 200 and in the USA. Education for the masses in India is still mediocre, however amongst all the madness I do believe sincerely that steps albeit small are being taken to improve, so in the interim lets take some Indian Blue blooded scholar with a pinch of salt
And Yes Capt before you start badgering
Its utterly disgusting.You guys have no pride at all in your country.
I have studied in India
I have studied abroad and lived and worked there
I speak 4 languages 2 of them not from the sub continent
For the above I am grateful and thankful to the rich experience provided by those host countries as it has made me a better more tolerant person.
I have returned to India
I am self employed
I provide employment to 150 people
None of the 150 are the so called engineers or brains from IIT
All are employed in one of the most backward areas of the country and are from tribal villages.
None of the above 150 in involved in any menial skills and are trained by us for us, purely due to the incompetency of the education system provided to them.
So lets not question anyone's patriotism or pride here!
If you want to be respected, you must respect yourself -- Spanish Proverb
And Yes I will write a lengthy answer as I want to express my opinion on a topic that is just spiraling towards hate politics and intolerance. Look where it has brought the World, look where it has brought India to............ if we claim we are smarter lets first stop "pissing" on each other
And to lighten things up......... Since you feel Indians dominate why not take a look at this
YouTube - Russell Peters whole world's mixing
Last edited by Wannabe Flyer; 1st Apr 2010 at 08:21.