DGCA Expat Phase-Out
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Dear Top_up,
When you were faced with the pathetic standards in AI and the despicable situation of clearing an undeserving pilot (who crashed sim) in a sim check, you HAD A CHOICE... either clear the pilot and be a part of the mess OR simply QUIT.
You had this privilege because of your credentials.
Do you really think a 250 hour CPL holder in India would have this privilege ?
A fresh trainee or rookie FO in an airline in India is about as significant as a grain of sand in the beach.
A 200 hour CPL holder trying to take on the Airline management, the DGCA, the civil aviation ministry etc and to try bring about changes in standards, and quality of training etc would be akin to a new born deer fighting a pack of wolves !!!
At this level and juncture, the most I can do as a fresh CPL holder would be to tell every other wannabe that I meet about the dangers and perils of falling for Pay-To-Fly programs and how prostituting oneself and paying to fly would only be damaging to ourselves and the whole industry in the long run.
On the other hand sir, I can assure you that if, and when in the future, I ever get anywhere close to your level and credentials, I will also not bend over to the corrupt and pathetic systems in place, and let safety, ethics and professionalism prevail.
When you were faced with the pathetic standards in AI and the despicable situation of clearing an undeserving pilot (who crashed sim) in a sim check, you HAD A CHOICE... either clear the pilot and be a part of the mess OR simply QUIT.
You had this privilege because of your credentials.
Do you really think a 250 hour CPL holder in India would have this privilege ?
A fresh trainee or rookie FO in an airline in India is about as significant as a grain of sand in the beach.
A 200 hour CPL holder trying to take on the Airline management, the DGCA, the civil aviation ministry etc and to try bring about changes in standards, and quality of training etc would be akin to a new born deer fighting a pack of wolves !!!
At this level and juncture, the most I can do as a fresh CPL holder would be to tell every other wannabe that I meet about the dangers and perils of falling for Pay-To-Fly programs and how prostituting oneself and paying to fly would only be damaging to ourselves and the whole industry in the long run.
On the other hand sir, I can assure you that if, and when in the future, I ever get anywhere close to your level and credentials, I will also not bend over to the corrupt and pathetic systems in place, and let safety, ethics and professionalism prevail.
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@TopTup
I haven't seen you conduct an aviation check, I haven't flown with you, I know you by what you write, and nothing else. Unable and incapable are not interchangeable, where unable would have sufficed you supplied incapable. That too without limiting the object to which the adjective may be applicable.
If you were a non native English speaker I will understand it to be a minor linguistic lapse, but unfortunately thats not the case. Your prejudice is apparent in the way you write. You don't have to plead guilty, I am not the judge here, it appeared to me that you are biased and I just mentioned it here. You are your own judge.
I don't know how to answer this question, because its less of a question and more of a diatribe. But yes, if I had an aviation firm and I had to hire a pilot for myself I will hire Pilot X. But the fact of the matter remains, I am not hiring, someone else is. You yourself know what kind of people those someone else are. I hope you understand not everyone has right to work in all other countries.
You walked straight into the trap, and yet all else are just 'kiddies' for you.
Trust me, you will never be disappointed.
But do tell me should I let off B777 F/O job with Air India, because they are a scum airline.
Bear in mind, If I don't take that someone else who may be 1/10th as competent as me is going to take up that job.
Or should I be working at a flight school in India, where I know that immediately after graduation my student is going to be in the right seat of that heavy jet by paying his way up, especially if I have the money enough to buy that job.
How much point is there being in a flight school if I know I have to pass my student doesn't matter if he is fit to fly or not.
Believe it or not I am not welcome to be part of the uncompromising aviation system which you have in USA/OZ/CA, and thats not because I am a dishonest/unskilled/incapable pilot, its merely because I don't have the correct passport. So is it really a big deal if my Indian passport allows me to be in the RHS of the transport jet at 250 hrs.
I have been with, flown with and taught so many Indian pilots, and when I look back I know a few of them were brats, but there percentage was well within single digits, your earlier post on the other hand portrayed an experienced expat against arrogant spoilt brats. As though all Indian 250 hrs wannabe's are brats.
What use is airmanship if I am not an airman?
What do I do of professionalism if I am out of vocation?
I don't stand to loose my honor if I pay for job, just like the OZ/US GA pilot who washes the airplane, sweeps the hangar, cleans the vomit without getting paid for it. Those who lose honor are the HR Mgr who takes the bribe, and th OZ/USA GA firm owner who exploits the pilot.
My integrity is not at risk because the beetle chewing AI TRE passed me without me doing any thing in the sim, or because I was incapable of bringing him to books. Though it is lost the moment I stop enhancing my skills.
As far as the conscience goes mine is as clear as that of a beast.
I haven't seen you conduct an aviation check, I haven't flown with you, I know you by what you write, and nothing else. Unable and incapable are not interchangeable, where unable would have sufficed you supplied incapable. That too without limiting the object to which the adjective may be applicable.
If you were a non native English speaker I will understand it to be a minor linguistic lapse, but unfortunately thats not the case. Your prejudice is apparent in the way you write. You don't have to plead guilty, I am not the judge here, it appeared to me that you are biased and I just mentioned it here. You are your own judge.
Who would rather employ? Pilot X or showed initiative, integrity, passion and dedication to his career, who went out and hunted for means and ways to further their aviation credentials by way of flying experience and education, or the Pilot Y who sat and b!tched day in and day out on PPRuNe about not walking straight into a heavy jet transport? Who despise those expats with 25000 hrs for taking the job they can do with a brand new CPL and 200 hrs! What’s wrong with getting off your lazing and arrogant, spoilt tails and looking for work to better your credentials and then the very second an interview comes you time off to attend it? That’s the way it is almost always done in many, many, many other countries in the world. Oh! Excuse me, I forgot: “He / she should have to!!!”
And please, stop calling a child who once did a circuit in a C152 solo and logged 0.3 of a flight hour under the “Command” section of a log book as “Captain”
Jimmygill, I thought better of you
But do tell me should I let off B777 F/O job with Air India, because they are a scum airline.
Bear in mind, If I don't take that someone else who may be 1/10th as competent as me is going to take up that job.
Or should I be working at a flight school in India, where I know that immediately after graduation my student is going to be in the right seat of that heavy jet by paying his way up, especially if I have the money enough to buy that job.
How much point is there being in a flight school if I know I have to pass my student doesn't matter if he is fit to fly or not.
Believe it or not I am not welcome to be part of the uncompromising aviation system which you have in USA/OZ/CA, and thats not because I am a dishonest/unskilled/incapable pilot, its merely because I don't have the correct passport. So is it really a big deal if my Indian passport allows me to be in the RHS of the transport jet at 250 hrs.
I have been with, flown with and taught so many Indian pilots, and when I look back I know a few of them were brats, but there percentage was well within single digits, your earlier post on the other hand portrayed an experienced expat against arrogant spoilt brats. As though all Indian 250 hrs wannabe's are brats.
After all, as you state: “we may have to forgo morality” [Jimmygill]
Conscience? Integrity? Honor? Airmanship? Professionalism?
Conscience? Integrity? Honor? Airmanship? Professionalism?
What use is airmanship if I am not an airman?
What do I do of professionalism if I am out of vocation?
I don't stand to loose my honor if I pay for job, just like the OZ/US GA pilot who washes the airplane, sweeps the hangar, cleans the vomit without getting paid for it. Those who lose honor are the HR Mgr who takes the bribe, and th OZ/USA GA firm owner who exploits the pilot.
My integrity is not at risk because the beetle chewing AI TRE passed me without me doing any thing in the sim, or because I was incapable of bringing him to books. Though it is lost the moment I stop enhancing my skills.
As far as the conscience goes mine is as clear as that of a beast.
The buzzard never says it is to blame.
The panther wouldn't know what scruples mean.
When the piranha strikes it feels no shame.
If snakes had hands, they'd claim their hands were clean.
A jackal doesn't understand remorse.
Lions and lice don't waver in their course.
Why should they when they know they're right?
Though hearts of killer whales may weigh a ton,
In every other way they're light.
On this third planet from the sun,
among the signs of bestiality
A clear conscience is Number One.
The panther wouldn't know what scruples mean.
When the piranha strikes it feels no shame.
If snakes had hands, they'd claim their hands were clean.
A jackal doesn't understand remorse.
Lions and lice don't waver in their course.
Why should they when they know they're right?
Though hearts of killer whales may weigh a ton,
In every other way they're light.
On this third planet from the sun,
among the signs of bestiality
A clear conscience is Number One.
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You want a job in Aviation?
Its like a breakfast of bacon, Orange juice and eggs.
Chicken and the tree contributed....but the pig was committed.
I think most non Indian pilots would like to see you clean up corruption and such in India before moaning about expats.
Oh and your not a Captain till you have a First Officer under your command.
Its like a breakfast of bacon, Orange juice and eggs.
Chicken and the tree contributed....but the pig was committed.
I think most non Indian pilots would like to see you clean up corruption and such in India before moaning about expats.
Oh and your not a Captain till you have a First Officer under your command.
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Privateer 01 many Indian pilots would like to see the likes of you out of India, considering your silly comments. The demand for transparency is on...so is the fight for getting rid of corruption, and the case of expat pilots presence in India is very much included. Experienced and matured captains are most welcome to stay if genuinely there are no Indians qualified enough to replace them.
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Perhaps the comments are consider "silly" because you don't agree with them.....Feel free to point out the ones you thought were silly and why.
You'll find a quite a few posts back where I discussed developing infrastructure for aviation in India.
Apparantly the little infrastructure there is..... is corrupt.....correct me if I'm wrong.
I pointed out that getting your flight training in a foreign country takes jobs from Indian instructors.......correct me if I was wrong.
Are there enough Indian Pilots that are "experienced and matured" enough to replace All the expats? Who's yard stick will you be using to measure that? If its based on a corrupted system thats pay to pass.....well thats a bit frightening.
Do you feel that expats are unqualified in terms of knowlege and experience? I don't get that impression.
Do you feel that Expats are part of the problem in terms of corruption? I don't get that impression either.
So seriously.....why not clean up Indian Aviation so theres standards?
You'll find a quite a few posts back where I discussed developing infrastructure for aviation in India.
Apparantly the little infrastructure there is..... is corrupt.....correct me if I'm wrong.
I pointed out that getting your flight training in a foreign country takes jobs from Indian instructors.......correct me if I was wrong.
Are there enough Indian Pilots that are "experienced and matured" enough to replace All the expats? Who's yard stick will you be using to measure that? If its based on a corrupted system thats pay to pass.....well thats a bit frightening.
Do you feel that expats are unqualified in terms of knowlege and experience? I don't get that impression.
Do you feel that Expats are part of the problem in terms of corruption? I don't get that impression either.
So seriously.....why not clean up Indian Aviation so theres standards?
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The problem with India is very little general aviation, so no way for the industry to have enouph qualified pilots. India may be corrupt, but this is only a small part of the problem now. 3000 hours is required for upgrade, start at 250 and you do the math. At least 4 years to even have the required time. Now just because you have the time doesn't mean you are entitled to the left seat. Out of this pool how many will take the test, pass the test? This applies to all countries. Couple this with a rapidly expanding airline environment and for the forseeable future expats will be required. And then you must actually take the atp test. About half of the qualified guys have taken the test, and not all those pass I have spoken to. This is the major issue in my oppinion.
Out of the 3000 cpl holders waiting for a job, how many do you think are still waiting, will pass the interview, pass training. If it's even 50% I would be very surprised. And I think this is one of the expats biggest beefs, just because the number is reached doesn't entitle one to a position or job. Not in India or any other country.
Out of the 3000 cpl holders waiting for a job, how many do you think are still waiting, will pass the interview, pass training. If it's even 50% I would be very surprised. And I think this is one of the expats biggest beefs, just because the number is reached doesn't entitle one to a position or job. Not in India or any other country.
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You want a job in Aviation?
Its like a breakfast of bacon, Orange juice and eggs.
Chicken and the tree contributed....but the pig was committed.
Its like a breakfast of bacon, Orange juice and eggs.
Chicken and the tree contributed....but the pig was committed.
I think most non Indian pilots would like to see you clean up corruption and such in India before moaning about expats.
Apparantly the little infrastructure there is..... is corrupt.....correct me if I'm wrong.
I pointed out that getting your flight training in a foreign country takes jobs from Indian instructors.......correct me if I was wrong.
Are there enough Indian Pilots that are "experienced and matured" enough to replace All the expats? Who's yard stick will you be using to measure that? If its based on a corrupted system thats pay to pass.....well thats a bit frightening.
If its a frightening go and complain to FAA, go and lobby with Boeing to put hour requirements for command in the aircraft certification itself.
Do you feel that expats are unqualified in terms of knowlege and experience? I don't get that impression.
Do you feel that Expats are part of the problem in terms of corruption? I don't get that impression either.
Code:
Notice of Apology: I have been informed that TopTup did take the necessary action of informing the authorities. Hence I render an apology on this forum pertaining to above incorrect assertion.
So seriously.....why not clean up Indian Aviation so theres standards?
Last edited by jimmygill; 18th Apr 2010 at 12:43.
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I think it's been stated before, this topic was about phasing out expats.
What we have here is stone throwing and banter as to the merits of experience versus local patriotism.
If the Airlines need experience they should be allowed to source it where needed. The Airlines employs expats for that reason. We are contracted to do our work professionally and without any encumbrance to the operation. We do the work, do not create industrial action and don't call in sick to suit our schedules.
I witnessed chaos last Diwali as people called in sick as little as two hours before a rostered flight.
I have seen this behaviour on a smaller scale take place in my previous Airline in the West but these individuals are subject to discipline if they cannot support their actions.
The Airlines management also needs to improve methods of working with aircrew but should also be supported by DGCA when justifying their requirement for experience and quality when manning their fleets.
Until that criteria is satisfied the expats should be retained.
What we have here is stone throwing and banter as to the merits of experience versus local patriotism.
If the Airlines need experience they should be allowed to source it where needed. The Airlines employs expats for that reason. We are contracted to do our work professionally and without any encumbrance to the operation. We do the work, do not create industrial action and don't call in sick to suit our schedules.
I witnessed chaos last Diwali as people called in sick as little as two hours before a rostered flight.
I have seen this behaviour on a smaller scale take place in my previous Airline in the West but these individuals are subject to discipline if they cannot support their actions.
The Airlines management also needs to improve methods of working with aircrew but should also be supported by DGCA when justifying their requirement for experience and quality when manning their fleets.
Until that criteria is satisfied the expats should be retained.
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I didn't get it, I don't know it may be profound or silly.
Now as in aviation......the pig made a pretty much total 100% commitment.
And can you enlighten us why they will have that preference?
Yes because unless you have grown up with corruption .....you take a rather dim view of it. Think three ring circus. (and might I just add....corruption wise...my country of birth is MORE corrupt then India by far).
I left a rather small country once....due to corruption. Right in the middle of airline start up. Even went and met with the countrys minister of labor and Aviation safety inspectors. Didn't change anything but at least they were told.
Tell me how does me getting training here bring any improvement in the level of corruption in that sector?
If its a frightening go and complain to FAA, go and lobby with Boeing to put hour requirements for command in the aircraft certification itself.
They are qualified to fly the jets, and I am qualified for traffic watch in SFO, if I am not welcome there why should I welcome expats. Is this so difficult to understand?
People immigrate legally to the USA evry year. Granted India gets hosed when it comes to US immigration. Its a shame and something I would like to see changed.
Yes they are part of the problem, by mere compliance to the system.
What makes you think that we are not doing that already. Or are we supposed to do just that exclusively
Rooting out corruption will lead to higher standards. As others have posted this is a pass or fail business. You either meet the standards or you don't.
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I see jobs advertised yesterday for Captains in India...
ATR 42/72
B737NG
A320
A300
Looks like your going to be battling a lost cause for a while boys...
ATR 42/72
B737NG
A320
A300
Looks like your going to be battling a lost cause for a while boys...
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@privateer01
You got it wrong Sir.The Pig was rich.
Can the non Indian pilots employ us to fight corruption Sir.Cause after we are done we will need the money to pay for our endorsement.
Little infrastructure! Been to Delhi airport lately! We are getting there Sir,Please be patient.
You got it wrong Sir.The Pig was rich.
I think most non Indian pilots would like to see you clean up corruption and such in India before moaning about expats
Apparantly the little infrastructure there is..... is corrupt.....correct me if I'm wrong
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Are there enough Indian Pilots that are "experienced and matured" enough to replace All the expats?
Do you feel that Expats are part of the problem in terms of corruption?
Do you feel that expats are unqualified in terms of knowlege and experience?
I pointed out that getting your flight training in a foreign country takes jobs from Indian instructors.......correct me if I was wrong
Last edited by Capt Apache; 18th Apr 2010 at 06:36.
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Granted India gets hosed when it comes to US immigration. Its a shame and something I would like to see changed.
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hey guys i am new to this forum and it sure has a lot of useful info to be gathered, specially for low timers about all those jobs in africa ( sounds exciting)
but i really havent been able to understand the need for this thread, i dont think the expats would be here if the airlines didnot need them, and i think if they r qualified for the job then y not let them do it cause sure as hell we r not.
some advice to other low timers like my self, i am guessing the people we are arguing with over here are quite senior to us, so please show some respect.
as long as they r here we should try and learn some thing from them rather than entering into a mud slinging match.
but i really havent been able to understand the need for this thread, i dont think the expats would be here if the airlines didnot need them, and i think if they r qualified for the job then y not let them do it cause sure as hell we r not.
some advice to other low timers like my self, i am guessing the people we are arguing with over here are quite senior to us, so please show some respect.
as long as they r here we should try and learn some thing from them rather than entering into a mud slinging match.
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Are you kidding? If the US changes its policy, 800 million out of the 1 billion Indians would want to migrate to the US...
My point was....there are a lot of people in the USA illegally.
Frankly the ones who broke the law should be returned to where they came from and people should be allowed to immigrate legally.
If your from India.....I believe the latest figures show an 8 yr wait for legal immigration.
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uh y again are we talking about illegal immigrants sounds a little out of context
Aviation India: Careers: Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies
Caught between the demands of Indian carriers to extend the July 30 deadline for returning 600-odd expat pilots employed with them and the rising number of jobless desi co-pilots, the government may give a final extension of one year for sending back the foreigners. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has got a number of representations from airlines here, who essentially say that their services would be severely affected and many planes grounded if the July 30 deadline is not extended.
The regulator is now learnt to be planning to give one more year subject to condition that airlines ensure career progression of Indian pilots. The idea: Only when desi co-pilots are upgraded to captains, will airlines start hiring the over 3,000 unemployed co-pilots. "We want this to be the final extension and are trying to devise ways to ensure airlines keep their promise. The extension may have to be given as safety cannot be compromised," said a senior official.
On their part, airlines have told DGCA that there is a paucity of experienced Indian commanders.
"Keeping experienced foreign commanders will allow airlines to recruit Indian co-pilots while still maintaining required safety levels in the cockpit. After recommended training, the fresh recruits can be paired with an experienced commander," said the airline official.
makes sense doesnt it ???
Aviation India: Careers: Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies
Caught between the demands of Indian carriers to extend the July 30 deadline for returning 600-odd expat pilots employed with them and the rising number of jobless desi co-pilots, the government may give a final extension of one year for sending back the foreigners. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has got a number of representations from airlines here, who essentially say that their services would be severely affected and many planes grounded if the July 30 deadline is not extended.
The regulator is now learnt to be planning to give one more year subject to condition that airlines ensure career progression of Indian pilots. The idea: Only when desi co-pilots are upgraded to captains, will airlines start hiring the over 3,000 unemployed co-pilots. "We want this to be the final extension and are trying to devise ways to ensure airlines keep their promise. The extension may have to be given as safety cannot be compromised," said a senior official.
On their part, airlines have told DGCA that there is a paucity of experienced Indian commanders.
"Keeping experienced foreign commanders will allow airlines to recruit Indian co-pilots while still maintaining required safety levels in the cockpit. After recommended training, the fresh recruits can be paired with an experienced commander," said the airline official.
makes sense doesnt it ???
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Add to this the fact there are at least 5 ads placed in the last week on some well known employment websites listing the carriers who you will work for and the salary package even, I dont think these darn expats will be leaving anytime soon. A lot of the jobs are for just straight captains, not even TRI's.
Maybe its time just to live with it and wait your turn, like a normal country... (and yes my native country took in a lot of expats when I was a green horn, but I was never bitter and twisted about it, it never crossed my mind actually I knew they were there for a reason)
Maybe its time just to live with it and wait your turn, like a normal country... (and yes my native country took in a lot of expats when I was a green horn, but I was never bitter and twisted about it, it never crossed my mind actually I knew they were there for a reason)
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I have a ?
ALL this talk about Expats leaving and the DGCA continuing to extend the deadline.....
From the Airline point of view, if they actually did get rid of all the expats, then wouldnt they save a lot of RS. as locals cost to company is not nearly as high as "pharenerz" right.....so maybe just maybe the true reason is that there are not enough Indian Commanders to replace the expats.....and safety should be paramount....
just my 2 paisa
ALL this talk about Expats leaving and the DGCA continuing to extend the deadline.....
From the Airline point of view, if they actually did get rid of all the expats, then wouldnt they save a lot of RS. as locals cost to company is not nearly as high as "pharenerz" right.....so maybe just maybe the true reason is that there are not enough Indian Commanders to replace the expats.....and safety should be paramount....
just my 2 paisa