Singapore Cargo Rumours (early 2010)
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SIA Cargo Second Officer
Originally Posted by pacificgypsy
SIA, SIACargo, and Silk Air obtain their F/O's from the communal pool of internally trained S/O's.
I wonder do SIA Cargo do Second Officer recruitment? If yes, I will appreciate if somebody can help me assess my qualification first to see whether do SIA Cargo consider my application or not. Kindly private message me.[<- highlight entire paragraph to see next question]
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yes ....second officers are hired by SIA and trained through the Singapore Flying College and then assigned to SIA, SIACargo or Silk Air for further training as First Officers. The order of preference is to recruit Singaporean or Singapore permanent residents, Malaysians or Indians.
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Originally Posted by pacificgypsy
The order of preference is to recruit Singaporean or Singapore permanent residents, Malaysians or Indians.
Originally Posted by pacificgypsy
yes ....second officers are hired by SIA and trained through the Singapore Flying College and then assigned to SIA, SIACargo or Silk Air for further training as First Officers.
However, my next question is, has SIA hired second officers before? Have they been doing this recruitment all the while or recently?
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They do hire Cadets/Second Officers. However, you still need to do some of the training with other cadets. Like a Learjet, or now Mustang, program in Australia. and then the full simulator training in Singapore. I have seen guys with a CPL and 500 hrs been doing this.
Cadet pilots become second officers after their Simulator training. Then go for line training and when completed, they have 2 bars and are fully qualified to operate from the right seat as a First Officer.
@Droste; SIA, SQC and SLK don't have second officers like you have in KLM and/or other airlines. Guys with 2 bars, in KLM called "coco's", are in SIA first officers.
Hope this clarifies your question regarding the hiring. Yes they hire guys with some flying experience, but they always become a Cadet first and then Second Officer and then First Officer.
Cadet pilots become second officers after their Simulator training. Then go for line training and when completed, they have 2 bars and are fully qualified to operate from the right seat as a First Officer.
@Droste; SIA, SQC and SLK don't have second officers like you have in KLM and/or other airlines. Guys with 2 bars, in KLM called "coco's", are in SIA first officers.
Hope this clarifies your question regarding the hiring. Yes they hire guys with some flying experience, but they always become a Cadet first and then Second Officer and then First Officer.
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And if I may add, Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear. After factoring in the waiting time, from a cadet to second officer (if you join with a CPL) takes about 24-25 months. Lets not forget a SO is still under training, so theres no productivity allowance!
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Originally Posted by FMGCS
They do hire Cadets/Second Officers. However, you still need to do some of the training with other cadets. Like a Learjet, or now Mustang, program in Australia. and then the full simulator training in Singapore. I have seen guys with a CPL and 500 hrs been doing this.
Hope this clarifies your question regarding the hiring. Yes they hire guys with some flying experience, but they always become a Cadet first and then Second Officer and then First Officer.
Hope this clarifies your question regarding the hiring. Yes they hire guys with some flying experience, but they always become a Cadet first and then Second Officer and then First Officer.
Originally Posted by autobrakes3
And if I may add, Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear. After factoring in the waiting time, from a cadet to second officer (if you join with a CPL) takes about 24-25 months. Lets not forget a SO is still under training, so theres no productivity allowance!
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Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear.
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Quote:
Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear.
That maybe the starting pay. I believe, the pay goes up as you progress through your training.
Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear.
That maybe the starting pay. I believe, the pay goes up as you progress through your training.
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Originally Posted by Arabian Mustang
That maybe the starting pay. I believe, the pay goes up as you progress through your training.
Originally Posted by Gear Down and Locked
The pay goes up to 2200, for the next 18-24 months. If you have to rent, it will be really tough. To rent single room in a HDB is around 400-500 before utilities. Small apartments go for upwards of 2.5k.
I guess I will consider to apply when there is vacancy or job opening in future.
They will feel funny with the licence I am holding now and I am pretty sure that I do not have to sit for any CAAS papers except their Air law
provided they consider my application
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To alwaysflying
Another heads up for you.
I see that you're in the ME now. Sure, Singapore as a city beats the desert any time but remember that it's a contract job. If your contract is up for renewal and times are bad you're out. Imagine how that will feel for your family if they have settled here. During the recession there were guys who had worked with SQ for almost twenty years who didn't get their contract renewed.
In that respect you guys in the desert are safer with your open ended contracts.
I'm not saying you shouldn't come but I want to give you the info as it is.
Another heads up for you.
I see that you're in the ME now. Sure, Singapore as a city beats the desert any time but remember that it's a contract job. If your contract is up for renewal and times are bad you're out. Imagine how that will feel for your family if they have settled here. During the recession there were guys who had worked with SQ for almost twenty years who didn't get their contract renewed.
In that respect you guys in the desert are safer with your open ended contracts.
I'm not saying you shouldn't come but I want to give you the info as it is.
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Thats good advice Patty
Too much of the overall package depends on flying a lot of hours and getting a good profit share. And that only turns a poor package into a mediocre one. No annual increment since 2008, no profit share and loss of MVC for over a year is really hurting. And as for child education allowance and medical benefits, just make sure you read the fine print very carefully. They will not cover what you might reasonably expect. Schools and medical care are very expensive. So is private health insurance for a family with children.
SIA Cargo is all about low cost and downward pressure on terms and conditions If your contract is due for renewal at the wrong time you are out. Ask the 25 pilots who were called to a meeting just over a year ago and told to leave their id cards and other company admin behind on their way out as they had 2 weeks to leave Singapore.
There is also the bank guarantee for the non typed pilots to consider which makes resignation in the first 5 years a very expensive option.
There are better jobs out there.
Too much of the overall package depends on flying a lot of hours and getting a good profit share. And that only turns a poor package into a mediocre one. No annual increment since 2008, no profit share and loss of MVC for over a year is really hurting. And as for child education allowance and medical benefits, just make sure you read the fine print very carefully. They will not cover what you might reasonably expect. Schools and medical care are very expensive. So is private health insurance for a family with children.
SIA Cargo is all about low cost and downward pressure on terms and conditions If your contract is due for renewal at the wrong time you are out. Ask the 25 pilots who were called to a meeting just over a year ago and told to leave their id cards and other company admin behind on their way out as they had 2 weeks to leave Singapore.
There is also the bank guarantee for the non typed pilots to consider which makes resignation in the first 5 years a very expensive option.
There are better jobs out there.
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Well, Flyingtheline, if they were highly experienced they could be upgraded and you and I wouldn't have a job. It's our experience they need and are paying for. I just wish they could at least keep up with the inflation in Singapore.
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SQ Cargo Renumeration / Lifestyle
Thanks once again Patty !
I am currently gathering info about the SQC & its great that people like you help to put the pros & cons in perspective.Having tried to put together the details below, pl could people confirm or correct.....
Financials
At this point still am not clear about the total emoluments, as per the ad its 10 k basic, plus 6.7k ( Housing & 2 kids Education ), Am I currect in assuming about 5 k in terms of flying allowance & per diem ?
That totals about 21.7 k, giving close to 20k after taxes ! The MVC/13th month salary/ Profit Sharing would all be extra if paid.
Lifestyle
As one would expect Cargo ops would probably be not an easy life, Legally SQC is to give 6 days off per month, but with flying between 45-50 hrs one can expect about 15 days off each month ! Fixed Rosters for 3 months, I do not know if there is any sort of bidding ?
Progression
Highly unlikely to get any other aircraft types for now. Progression to training & Management is highly restrictive.
Benefits
Not much known about Loss of Licence/Life Insurance/Medica ??
Once a yr Annual Leave Ticket only on SQ network.. 32 days Annual Leave.
Do not know if this can be taken in parts, any travel days attached,or if there is any other short leave throughout the year.
Travel Benefits other that the Annual Leave Ticket not known/ not a member of ZED ticketing !
Is one allowed to leave Singapore on Days Off ( or only during the 6 mandated days off ), basically can one take short vaccations close by without eating into the annual leave ?
Lastly I know its a contract job for 5 yrs with possible no extension, currently see a lot of 744 openings, so worst case there are other jobs out there !
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
I am currently gathering info about the SQC & its great that people like you help to put the pros & cons in perspective.Having tried to put together the details below, pl could people confirm or correct.....
Financials
At this point still am not clear about the total emoluments, as per the ad its 10 k basic, plus 6.7k ( Housing & 2 kids Education ), Am I currect in assuming about 5 k in terms of flying allowance & per diem ?
That totals about 21.7 k, giving close to 20k after taxes ! The MVC/13th month salary/ Profit Sharing would all be extra if paid.
Lifestyle
As one would expect Cargo ops would probably be not an easy life, Legally SQC is to give 6 days off per month, but with flying between 45-50 hrs one can expect about 15 days off each month ! Fixed Rosters for 3 months, I do not know if there is any sort of bidding ?
Progression
Highly unlikely to get any other aircraft types for now. Progression to training & Management is highly restrictive.
Benefits
Not much known about Loss of Licence/Life Insurance/Medica ??
Once a yr Annual Leave Ticket only on SQ network.. 32 days Annual Leave.
Do not know if this can be taken in parts, any travel days attached,or if there is any other short leave throughout the year.
Travel Benefits other that the Annual Leave Ticket not known/ not a member of ZED ticketing !
Is one allowed to leave Singapore on Days Off ( or only during the 6 mandated days off ), basically can one take short vaccations close by without eating into the annual leave ?
Lastly I know its a contract job for 5 yrs with possible no extension, currently see a lot of 744 openings, so worst case there are other jobs out there !
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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Kids education is not a recurrent remuneration. It's paid towards your receipt and it covers about 75 % of the cost.
5 K is correct for productivity and per diem.
Expect 19 K per month and when you add the 13 month you can more or less plan your life on 20 K per month on average. A good idea is to save 2000 of these for your taxes.
So you'll end up with 18000 to spend. If you're lucky there might be a bonus next year but don't count on it.
Unfortunately 40-50 hours does not mean 15 days at home. There are many COP:s where half of the flying is unpaid positioning. You can also end up with a five day layover in some places. 10 day trips with 15 hours flying is not uncommon. Expect 12-13 days at home on average with the occasional 8 day months as well.
Fixed rosters for three month? Where did you get that from? Your roster is not fixed for three minutes! Expect constant roster changes with the subsequent days off being changed as well. You should have one block of six days that are fixed every month but the rest of the month will be changed with very little notice. You better have a understanding wife when you leave home for a 6 day trip and come home after 14 days and all her dinner plans with your friends was screwed up for the 10th time that year.
Why would one want any other aircraft type? It's the 747-400! Well ok, the -8 would be nice...
They are constantly short of trainers so getting a job as LIP is highly possible after a year or two.
I'm too old for the LoL so I'm not sure about that one.
As Arkdriver says, if you want to have a good medical cover you must take a personal insurance for your family. Expect to pay at least 5000 SGD per year. Nothing covered for the family for dental and for you the company pays up to 400 SGD per year. Won't cover much.
The annual leave ticket is subject to tax and airport fees so it will cost you 3-400 SGD per family member.
Staff travel is the worst in the industry. For regional travel the budget carriers are cheaper and you get a confirmed seat. For travel to the US or Europe you'll pay 1000-1200 SGD per person for a non confirmed ticket. Economy class is often full and they won't upgrade you even if business is empty so unless you can confirm the flight is open you're often better off buying a firm ticket for those flights as well.
The 32 days leave can be split up in fewer days. You can leave Singapore but must ALWAYS ask permission (which will be granted).
You might not be worried about getting a job on the -400 anywhere else but it might be painful for the family to move. That's the problem with the contract job.
5 K is correct for productivity and per diem.
Expect 19 K per month and when you add the 13 month you can more or less plan your life on 20 K per month on average. A good idea is to save 2000 of these for your taxes.
So you'll end up with 18000 to spend. If you're lucky there might be a bonus next year but don't count on it.
Unfortunately 40-50 hours does not mean 15 days at home. There are many COP:s where half of the flying is unpaid positioning. You can also end up with a five day layover in some places. 10 day trips with 15 hours flying is not uncommon. Expect 12-13 days at home on average with the occasional 8 day months as well.
Fixed rosters for three month? Where did you get that from? Your roster is not fixed for three minutes! Expect constant roster changes with the subsequent days off being changed as well. You should have one block of six days that are fixed every month but the rest of the month will be changed with very little notice. You better have a understanding wife when you leave home for a 6 day trip and come home after 14 days and all her dinner plans with your friends was screwed up for the 10th time that year.
Why would one want any other aircraft type? It's the 747-400! Well ok, the -8 would be nice...
They are constantly short of trainers so getting a job as LIP is highly possible after a year or two.
I'm too old for the LoL so I'm not sure about that one.
As Arkdriver says, if you want to have a good medical cover you must take a personal insurance for your family. Expect to pay at least 5000 SGD per year. Nothing covered for the family for dental and for you the company pays up to 400 SGD per year. Won't cover much.
The annual leave ticket is subject to tax and airport fees so it will cost you 3-400 SGD per family member.
Staff travel is the worst in the industry. For regional travel the budget carriers are cheaper and you get a confirmed seat. For travel to the US or Europe you'll pay 1000-1200 SGD per person for a non confirmed ticket. Economy class is often full and they won't upgrade you even if business is empty so unless you can confirm the flight is open you're often better off buying a firm ticket for those flights as well.
The 32 days leave can be split up in fewer days. You can leave Singapore but must ALWAYS ask permission (which will be granted).
You might not be worried about getting a job on the -400 anywhere else but it might be painful for the family to move. That's the problem with the contract job.
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Thanks Patty for all the info !
Is there an end of contract Bonus &/or relocation assistance ?
How is the situation with the Pax side ? Hear that they may start hiring by year end !
Is there an end of contract Bonus &/or relocation assistance ?
How is the situation with the Pax side ? Hear that they may start hiring by year end !
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End of contract bonus 10000 SGD per year.
Relocation 1000 kg (volumeweight) free airfreight and 5000 SGD towards other expenses (packing etc).
Just recently main had a surplus of about 30 Captains but you never know. If they start hiring it's a much better option.
Relocation 1000 kg (volumeweight) free airfreight and 5000 SGD towards other expenses (packing etc).
Just recently main had a surplus of about 30 Captains but you never know. If they start hiring it's a much better option.
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Pacificgypsy,
Thanks for your informative posts. I do have a question: when second officers are hired by SIA and trained through the Singapore Flying College and then assigned to SIA, SIACargo or Silk Air for further training as First Officers, how are the pilots allocated to SIA, SIACargo and Silk Air? Is it based purely on need at the individual carriers, is it performance based (training results), or is it based on personal choice among cadets?
Also, when cadets do start at SIA, which fleets do they generally start on at SIA?
Cheers
Thanks for your informative posts. I do have a question: when second officers are hired by SIA and trained through the Singapore Flying College and then assigned to SIA, SIACargo or Silk Air for further training as First Officers, how are the pilots allocated to SIA, SIACargo and Silk Air? Is it based purely on need at the individual carriers, is it performance based (training results), or is it based on personal choice among cadets?
Also, when cadets do start at SIA, which fleets do they generally start on at SIA?
Cheers