Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow
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Weido_Salt: You're 100% right. The number of times I've operated iinto CDG only to be confronted by the French language. This greatly reduces situational awareness. The ability to listen to what and how ATC are manoeuvering the aircraft about you is lost and hence your ability to prepare accordingly.
Cultural differences, language differences and airline cultures are meant to be regulated in the form of ICAO / FAA / JAA procedures, rules and regulations. Those in charge choose to ignore such practices - nationalistic pride?
When breaches of minimum standards becomes frequent, when those frequencies become more often and regular, they then become part of the airline culture and therefore become defended as the norm. (Eg smoking in the cockpit).
At least the likes of Capt Sulley (Hudson A320 Skipper) has the fortitude and is offered the stage to speak out. Will it change the practices in the US of cost cutting and poor training? Same in India, same in the above mentioned scenario. If we don't openly discuss such issues then we are part of the problem.
Cultural differences, language differences and airline cultures are meant to be regulated in the form of ICAO / FAA / JAA procedures, rules and regulations. Those in charge choose to ignore such practices - nationalistic pride?
When breaches of minimum standards becomes frequent, when those frequencies become more often and regular, they then become part of the airline culture and therefore become defended as the norm. (Eg smoking in the cockpit).
At least the likes of Capt Sulley (Hudson A320 Skipper) has the fortitude and is offered the stage to speak out. Will it change the practices in the US of cost cutting and poor training? Same in India, same in the above mentioned scenario. If we don't openly discuss such issues then we are part of the problem.
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Indian Airlines with or without expat are a joke. There is not one airline in India that makes a profit, nor has a decent training program or facilities. Indian airlines break every rule in the book, seating people in the bathroom, boarding without the crew on board, one pilot operation just to name a few. Let them run thier mickeymouse make believe airlines , it will be fun too watch
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Indian Airlines with or without expat are a joke. There is not one airline in India that makes a profit, nor has a decent training program or facilities. Indian airlines break every rule in the book, seating people in the bathroom, boarding without the crew on board, one pilot operation just to name a few. Let them run thier mickeymouse make believe airlines , it will be fun too watch
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I hear they don't even have navigational equipment onboard to cut costs. 
Except they worked out of Indiana. A lot of people here should be wary of dismissing other carriers as irredeemable wrecks as a matter of national pride. Seems we're all throwing stones at each others' glass houses.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Ban Indians from the USA & Europe
in retaliation for this practice, US congress & all foreign gov't of developed countries must ban all Indians working in their aviation industry. this Indian practice is called protectionism & frowned upon by Obama admin. & free & fair trade.
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Kapalmuks,
There are no Indians working on contract in the aviation industry in the US. They might be working on an H1 as computer techs and programmers but to be a pilot you have to be a green card holder and/or a naturalized citizen.Those very few who do make it to the airlines under those circumstances, do not get any preferential treatment (i.e. more pay and perks) and are certainly not living in a tax free world. So before you yell protectionism,get your facts straight.
I am not in favor of getting rid of the expats in India. Despite the thousands of "qualified" local pilots who are, supposedly, waiting in line,I believe it would be a mistake to abruptly send the expats home.But this tit for tat game gets old pretty quick.
Besides, from reading all the posts here on the subject, I am a little confused.The expats hate India and all the corruption and lack of safety etc. and yet don't want to leave??
Seems like schizophrenia to me.Ahh yes, you are all truly selfless individuals who don't want to see "smoking holes" in the ground. That is why you want to stay and put up with crap so that you can "improve" the system. The fat paycheck, of course, is purely incidental.
Alt3.
There are no Indians working on contract in the aviation industry in the US. They might be working on an H1 as computer techs and programmers but to be a pilot you have to be a green card holder and/or a naturalized citizen.Those very few who do make it to the airlines under those circumstances, do not get any preferential treatment (i.e. more pay and perks) and are certainly not living in a tax free world. So before you yell protectionism,get your facts straight.
I am not in favor of getting rid of the expats in India. Despite the thousands of "qualified" local pilots who are, supposedly, waiting in line,I believe it would be a mistake to abruptly send the expats home.But this tit for tat game gets old pretty quick.
Besides, from reading all the posts here on the subject, I am a little confused.The expats hate India and all the corruption and lack of safety etc. and yet don't want to leave??
Seems like schizophrenia to me.Ahh yes, you are all truly selfless individuals who don't want to see "smoking holes" in the ground. That is why you want to stay and put up with crap so that you can "improve" the system. The fat paycheck, of course, is purely incidental.Alt3.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Monsieur Allouette trois,
Of course the [expat] pilots are there to earn a living. They are "professionals" where by defiinition they earn an income from their skills. Yes some/most do not like it all in India BUT they signed a contract in good faith and some are in need of that income. That does not mean they have to like the conditions imposed on them by agencies who do not care, corrupt officials where they work, standards well below internationally sanctioned levels, AND contracts that are breached nearly every day of the week. I feel very sorry for those who suffered at the hands of similar wrongs in The States and who MUST keep working. Others have the luxury to walk away and I understand that day is fast approaching.
No one denies that most, if not all are there purely for the pay cheque. That issue was mutually agreed to by both parties signing a contract. But, what THIS THREAD is all about is the desire to remove those with expertise and great experience with those with no experience and very, very, very little expertise (if any). That is the point here.
In many cases there are "selfless individuals" who take the time to discuss "little things" like the importance of V1 or Vmca with their 200 hr FO since they have no idea themsleves. They are not instructors by definition, are not paid to go out of their way as such but wish to impart knowledge and their experience purely for the love of flying AND to help others who were not offered the same level of instruction they ever were. In some small way they DO try to prevent the smoking hole in the ground. In my humble opinion their mere presence prevents this. (Just my opinion).
If you don't like it, leave. Very true. I did.
Also, I could.
Of course the [expat] pilots are there to earn a living. They are "professionals" where by defiinition they earn an income from their skills. Yes some/most do not like it all in India BUT they signed a contract in good faith and some are in need of that income. That does not mean they have to like the conditions imposed on them by agencies who do not care, corrupt officials where they work, standards well below internationally sanctioned levels, AND contracts that are breached nearly every day of the week. I feel very sorry for those who suffered at the hands of similar wrongs in The States and who MUST keep working. Others have the luxury to walk away and I understand that day is fast approaching.
No one denies that most, if not all are there purely for the pay cheque. That issue was mutually agreed to by both parties signing a contract. But, what THIS THREAD is all about is the desire to remove those with expertise and great experience with those with no experience and very, very, very little expertise (if any). That is the point here.
In many cases there are "selfless individuals" who take the time to discuss "little things" like the importance of V1 or Vmca with their 200 hr FO since they have no idea themsleves. They are not instructors by definition, are not paid to go out of their way as such but wish to impart knowledge and their experience purely for the love of flying AND to help others who were not offered the same level of instruction they ever were. In some small way they DO try to prevent the smoking hole in the ground. In my humble opinion their mere presence prevents this. (Just my opinion).
If you don't like it, leave. Very true. I did.
Also, I could.
Join Date: May 2004
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Tup, i admire your resilence, and patience in explaining things on this thread.
My opinion is that the main problem is systemic, with the DGCA, Minister, Ministry, a crap of a flag carrier.
The last i heard is that the going DGCA rate for a basic R/T licence is Rs. 45,000-60,000, if you have no connections.
The pilots just dont have a proper system, role model , or example to follow yet. It is evolving slowly due to some talented locals and professional expats, as well as the private carriers. But not fast enough to catch up with the aviation world, or the impending economic boom.
So, when things are difficult, and, there is no solution, its time to blame someone. This is i assure you, a world wide phenomenon.
May i introduce you to Adrian Adrago, last years Booker prize winner and his novel White Tiger. A good read to understand the system.
My opinion is that the main problem is systemic, with the DGCA, Minister, Ministry, a crap of a flag carrier.
The last i heard is that the going DGCA rate for a basic R/T licence is Rs. 45,000-60,000, if you have no connections.
The pilots just dont have a proper system, role model , or example to follow yet. It is evolving slowly due to some talented locals and professional expats, as well as the private carriers. But not fast enough to catch up with the aviation world, or the impending economic boom.
So, when things are difficult, and, there is no solution, its time to blame someone. This is i assure you, a world wide phenomenon.
May i introduce you to Adrian Adrago, last years Booker prize winner and his novel White Tiger. A good read to understand the system.
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They should do what the middle eastern carriers do. Hire upper management with brains, in other words not only expats pilots, but expats to run the DGCA, expats as controllers, outsource the administration of airports,a complete overhaul of the indian system and maybe in 20years they will be self sufficient. Mechanics, fueleres, imigration officials,airport security should all be run by expats.
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I am okay with the hiring of qualified expat pilots...even recruiting experienced expat upper management. Indians with brains and management talents are swarming top management in NASA, MOTOROLA, NOMURA, CITBANK...in U.S, Europe, M.E Tokyo, and the Far East anyway. You don't get that many talents from the gulf...small poulation.
But replacing corrupt DGCA and Indian govt. officers with expats?? OMG!! what a fun idea though...Let's also rally to replace the Burmese, Sudanese, Somali govt. officials with expats while we are at it! Didn't someone try to do that indirectly in Iraq or something?
By all means hire expat aviation hit-men as advisers and management for tuning the system. As for the DGCA, it's about transparecy. For starters we need a top guy who's clean and commited to corporate governance. I am positive they are plenty of good Indian people to take on that when, and if, the Indian govt. finally decides to make an attempt to clean up the system.
But replacing corrupt DGCA and Indian govt. officers with expats?? OMG!! what a fun idea though...Let's also rally to replace the Burmese, Sudanese, Somali govt. officials with expats while we are at it! Didn't someone try to do that indirectly in Iraq or something?
By all means hire expat aviation hit-men as advisers and management for tuning the system. As for the DGCA, it's about transparecy. For starters we need a top guy who's clean and commited to corporate governance. I am positive they are plenty of good Indian people to take on that when, and if, the Indian govt. finally decides to make an attempt to clean up the system.
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Indian airlines break every rule in the book, seating people in the bathroom, boarding without the crew on board, one pilot operation just to name a few.
Fubaleria, I think you forgot both (all) pilots outside the flight deck fist fighting with the cabin crew in the galley at FL350.
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Indian aviation needs a Nilekhani, with a mandate, a few machine guns and a licence to kill.
This sector has practically tried everything to destroy the country, the economy and its people for its selfish corrupted reasons for the past 30 years.
Its time for the country to stand up.
And pls, not another minister, but an apolitical technocrat with brains and a track record.
This sector has practically tried everything to destroy the country, the economy and its people for its selfish corrupted reasons for the past 30 years.
Its time for the country to stand up.
And pls, not another minister, but an apolitical technocrat with brains and a track record.
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US immigration laws for work permits
Most of the expats bashing the Indian government's attempt to get the expats out have no idea what they are talking about. If there are ample supplies of local citizens to do a particular job, they should get the first shot.
For example, take a look at the US (I am a US citizen). To get a flying job here as an expat, you have to be naturalized as a US citizen or atleast hold a work permit. And get this: US does not issue work permits for pilot applicants. The ONLY way to get that for being a pilot of if you are married to a US citizen. The only way you can get a work permit in US for a particular job is if there is a shortage of local citizens to fill that job. The medical and IT industry in the US are good examples of fields where they can't seem to find enough locals to do the job. The only way a company in the US can hire foreign labor is through immigration AFTER they prove to immigration that, there exists a lack of qualified local citizens to fill a particular vacancy. (There are excemptions: For example, US immigration has a program to attract super-high-quality labor. You see US companies conducting campus interviews in elite universities all over the world in certain specialized fields. Indians seem to score pretty good in this category from their famed IIT (kind of an equivalent to the MIT in the US).
People in this forum demanding to send 'Indian' taxi drivers or 'gas station owners' back to India are conveniently forgetting one thing. Most of them are just as American as you are....most of them are American by birth or naturalization. Just because they are brown skinned does not mean they are not 'American'. Face it: US is a nation build by immigrants...they are here from all corners of the world. Their ethnic background has nothing do do with being 'American'.
Now I do agree with the fact that India has a lot of catch-up to do to get the cockpit upto international standards. CRM is almost non-existant in India. Like many have pointed out, many FOs can't even fly a basic raw data ILS with all engines working in IMC without the autopilot. Many can barely land the plane. Having flown both in India and the US, I was shocked by the utter lack of piloting skills and instrument flying knowledge exhibited by many FOs. Many would not even pass an Intrument Rating in the US! I can guarantee that Indian aviation has a long way to go before catching up to the rest of the world.
For example, take a look at the US (I am a US citizen). To get a flying job here as an expat, you have to be naturalized as a US citizen or atleast hold a work permit. And get this: US does not issue work permits for pilot applicants. The ONLY way to get that for being a pilot of if you are married to a US citizen. The only way you can get a work permit in US for a particular job is if there is a shortage of local citizens to fill that job. The medical and IT industry in the US are good examples of fields where they can't seem to find enough locals to do the job. The only way a company in the US can hire foreign labor is through immigration AFTER they prove to immigration that, there exists a lack of qualified local citizens to fill a particular vacancy. (There are excemptions: For example, US immigration has a program to attract super-high-quality labor. You see US companies conducting campus interviews in elite universities all over the world in certain specialized fields. Indians seem to score pretty good in this category from their famed IIT (kind of an equivalent to the MIT in the US).
People in this forum demanding to send 'Indian' taxi drivers or 'gas station owners' back to India are conveniently forgetting one thing. Most of them are just as American as you are....most of them are American by birth or naturalization. Just because they are brown skinned does not mean they are not 'American'. Face it: US is a nation build by immigrants...they are here from all corners of the world. Their ethnic background has nothing do do with being 'American'.
Now I do agree with the fact that India has a lot of catch-up to do to get the cockpit upto international standards. CRM is almost non-existant in India. Like many have pointed out, many FOs can't even fly a basic raw data ILS with all engines working in IMC without the autopilot. Many can barely land the plane. Having flown both in India and the US, I was shocked by the utter lack of piloting skills and instrument flying knowledge exhibited by many FOs. Many would not even pass an Intrument Rating in the US! I can guarantee that Indian aviation has a long way to go before catching up to the rest of the world.