Korean Air
Join Date: Dec 2007
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737 F/O
Me thinks questions about days at home are pretty clear. Just like to clarify one more thing.
As you need to be in Seoul for X-amount of days every month, is it possible to link two months together?
(For example, fly home on the 17th of one month and arrive back in seoul on the 14th the next month?) If this would be possible, that suddenly makes everything a lot more interesting...
Any info greatly appreciated.
As you need to be in Seoul for X-amount of days every month, is it possible to link two months together?
(For example, fly home on the 17th of one month and arrive back in seoul on the 14th the next month?) If this would be possible, that suddenly makes everything a lot more interesting...
Any info greatly appreciated.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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AVP-left
Senior Management must be thrilled that the AVP Line OPS left. He resigned during his day´s off. His move must give him a prospective way into the retirement as he approaches 60 and KAL loves to cut the pay then.
Also another over 10 Years with KAL B777 Captain left, more on the jump.
Also another over 10 Years with KAL B777 Captain left, more on the jump.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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KAL hiring
I thought time has come to update this thread as FOOLS are still showing up to be kicked away with a sore ego after spending lots of time in kimchi-land making a mess of their lives.
I WARN YOU AGAIN... LISTEN!
Do you like to gamble with your choices in life? then go ahead and give KAL a go, You wil be put through a screening that will give you the first warning that you have made a mistake,
The medical test is a stupid not funny joke. Your test results are compared to a mark of a 18 year old Korean and they will harassed you as if it was your fault you can not get those readings.
Simulator assessment is conducted by a disrespectful local that is hoping nothing good for you, guess how this is potentially going to end.
But not to worry, If you succeeded in the screening and are thrilled of how good you fortune is, then the big and final gamble comes when you join KAL and spend 2 to 3 months of your life learning the new invented korean way of doing things and then told by a local instructor that you are not good enough.
YOU ALL HAVE BEEN WARNED...AGAIN!
I WARN YOU AGAIN... LISTEN!
Do you like to gamble with your choices in life? then go ahead and give KAL a go, You wil be put through a screening that will give you the first warning that you have made a mistake,
The medical test is a stupid not funny joke. Your test results are compared to a mark of a 18 year old Korean and they will harassed you as if it was your fault you can not get those readings.
Simulator assessment is conducted by a disrespectful local that is hoping nothing good for you, guess how this is potentially going to end.
But not to worry, If you succeeded in the screening and are thrilled of how good you fortune is, then the big and final gamble comes when you join KAL and spend 2 to 3 months of your life learning the new invented korean way of doing things and then told by a local instructor that you are not good enough.
YOU ALL HAVE BEEN WARNED...AGAIN!
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Warned again
Poster, that should be on for all the Agents as well. Got two messages this week for KAL screening in November and deadline is approaching.
Be all warned what you want to take on if you go for it !!!
Be all warned what you want to take on if you go for it !!!
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I went through the interview process some 4 years ago. Perhaps things have changed. Every aspect very pleasant from airport check in to hotel accommodations, interview process. Even sat in business class in both directions. I was reimbursed for the travel taxes I had to pay when I checked in for my flight. The medical is no different than in China, Europe, or Indonesia or the Mid East. Standard Blood, Urine, EKG, TMT, Dental Exam, Chest X-ray, BP, EEG. I even got a kick of the ringing of the bell before entering the interview room.
I was offered the job, but after consideration of current pay and benefits and QOL, I decided to stary where I was at the time.
Yes... I've heard about the horror stories from many folks, and also heard many stories of benign experiences of those who chose to cooperate and graduate.
One must learn to adapt and overcome when a guest in someone else's house.
I was offered the job, but after consideration of current pay and benefits and QOL, I decided to stary where I was at the time.
Yes... I've heard about the horror stories from many folks, and also heard many stories of benign experiences of those who chose to cooperate and graduate.
One must learn to adapt and overcome when a guest in someone else's house.
Join Date: Oct 2011
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KAL Rated 737-800 commuting contracts
Hey all, I’ve been reading up on these commuting contracts with KAL through Direct personnel agency. It sounds ok....I keep reading peoples post of "be warned" etc etc...but if you want to head out there, do your roster, earn your cash, and then enjoy life at home with up to 11 days off a month seems to sound good to me? Obviously not forever but to get by until something better comes along maybe....
Would people agree or am I missing something? Thanks for your help, Im rated on the NG with 2800hours so I can’t see much training to fail unless they are super super pedantic... Im looking for work and considering the idea of applying.
Would people agree or am I missing something? Thanks for your help, Im rated on the NG with 2800hours so I can’t see much training to fail unless they are super super pedantic... Im looking for work and considering the idea of applying.
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Yes there are content foreign pilots that have passed through the OE, pilots that are renewing the contracts and staying probably to the very last days of their flying career.
Good things... You now what's wrong with your health, they'll find it during medical checks... Is it good or bad, its questionable point of view? Aircraft maintenance is excellent, makes your life as a pilot much easier... The schedule is marvel; one can plan almost entire year ahead and in 99% it will come through. Lifestyle...11 days every month, actually 12 nights at home is worth it. Fuel policy not as strict; you can add fuel when you have that gut feeling and no questions asked.
Bad things... You can always find the things to grumble about. Can you change them? Probably not so you learn to live with them. If it becomes intolerable you leave. It is your, and your choice only. And yes, it would be nice to have pay rise…
Good luck!!!
Good things... You now what's wrong with your health, they'll find it during medical checks... Is it good or bad, its questionable point of view? Aircraft maintenance is excellent, makes your life as a pilot much easier... The schedule is marvel; one can plan almost entire year ahead and in 99% it will come through. Lifestyle...11 days every month, actually 12 nights at home is worth it. Fuel policy not as strict; you can add fuel when you have that gut feeling and no questions asked.
Bad things... You can always find the things to grumble about. Can you change them? Probably not so you learn to live with them. If it becomes intolerable you leave. It is your, and your choice only. And yes, it would be nice to have pay rise…
Good luck!!!
Last edited by Brave heart; 1st Dec 2011 at 15:11.
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Would people agree or am I missing something? Thanks for your help, Im rated on the NG with 2800hours so I can’t see much training to fail unless they are super super pedantic... Im looking for work and considering the idea of applying.
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Korean Air issues:
Hardly a month goes by that I don't receive e-mails from the various pilot recruitment agencies from around the world, requesting applications for recruitment by Korean Air.
The applications received by Korean Air to attend the screening process however are minimal in number to say the least and have steadily been dropping off. Why is this one may ask?
There are numerous reasons for this and I hope that by writing this, Korean Air will see how they can improve their success in maintaining current pilots and recruiting new ones:
As an active pilot with Korean Air at present, I can provide first hand knowledge as to the problems faced by the expat pilots, and additionally, what is told to me by other pilots as to the reasons why many have left KAL, or are planning to leave. It is my hope that Korean will be able to accept constructive criticism and change some of their practices for the better, as I would like to make it to retirement from their ranks at 65, a goal which, at the present time seems dubious at best.
1. It appears that while KAL see and are very aware of the problem as to having too few pilots, and are actively trying to recruit more, they are simultaneously, it would appear, on a mission to pressure the foreign pilots out of the airline. It's a fact that the KAL pilots union does not want foreign pilots in the airline. The attitude of the local Korean pilots toward foreign pilots is at best, unfriendly and there is a constant feeling of animosity. The annual line check, which, in any other airline is a routine occurrence, is a good indicator of the animosity that is felt by the local KAL pilots. The line check is used, by and large as a tool to belittle and humiliate the foreign pilot, beginning with the oral segment of the line check, where the crew being checked is subjected to an hour’s session of questions and answers, where the checker asks a random 25 questions out of a bank of approx. 200, that is meant to have been studied and memorized by heart prior to the day of the line check. No open books are allowed. A pass mark of at least 70% is required for this oral test and if not attained, cancels the line check, with the obvious consequences for the trainee.
2. While First officers are for the most part, respectful and accommodating, it is rumored often about a system in place, where they are able to anonymously report on the Captain that they happen to be flying with, and the said Capt is never given the opportunity to even challenge or defend himself against the report...it is secretly placed on his file for future reference, resulting in very experienced and competent pilots not having their contract renewed when it comes up, and not being given any reason as to why. When one hears of a 15 yr KAL pilot not being renewed with no reason given, it is no wonder that this is resulting in foreign pilots leaving KAL at the first opportunity to go to China, Turkey, etc. or holding out until the first better opportunity presents itself to protect their incomes and future.
3. Then there is something called “factoring of hours”. This is applied only to the
expat pilots and not the Koreans. What this in effect means is that depending on whether it is a two pilot operation, i.e.. Capt and F/O, or whether it is a three pilot or double crew operation, one’s hours are adjusted accordingly. This means that you can effectively be rostered to do 100+ hours in a month, but will not exceed the factored ( as far as Korean Air are concerned ) 75 hours, after which overtime is paid. They are extremely careful to ensure that no overtime is paid.
4. Expat pilots get a total of 11 days off every month ( 9 hard days and 2 days which
can be tacked on to the 9, but which are actually collectable vacation days.
The working days that are then left for Korean Air to utilize the expat pilot, are
used to the absolute maximum. The majority of the flights have a turnaround or layover time of 24 hours or less, on average 18-20 hours. This quite literally only gives one time to sleep and eat and get ready to go again. The flights are also very
often rostered East and West consecutively, giving very little consideration for the
time zone changes, etc. This schedule results in one feeling bone tired halfway through the schedule which is a safety concern. The Korean pilots find our intense schedule amusing and often remark on the fact that we have no time off between flights when they have 2-3 days off. Flying near 90 hours a month up from 75 a few yrs ago is indicative of the shortage of pilots flying.
5. Given this very high duty time utilization, Korean Air have also implemented an
on-line ground school function on their crew web site, requiring crew to spend
hours of their own time completing a series of ground school subjects prior to the
regular simulator check every six months. As there is little or no time to
accomplish this task during the pilot’s working period, this has to be done during
the pilot’s off/vacation days at home. Korean Air have also recently begun to expand on these on-line ground school courses, which now also include emergency equipment and procedures training, prior to the regular CRM training course. By providing and enforcing the completion of these training courses on line, Korean Air are saving on training days in the classroom, thus increasing the pilot utilization.
6. Korean Air have also not provided a salary increase for a number of years now for the expat pilot community, while having increased the Korean pilot’s salary packages. This has resulted in the salaries lagging way behind the industry’s market related salaries.
This is despite the fact that Korean are struggling to attract quality pilots in a
market that at present is desperately short of pilots. Korean Air seem to be of the
misguided opinion that the commuting benefit overrides everything else and that the expat pilots will accept absolutely anything for the ability for them to commute to a home base.
7. Commuting to and from one’s home base after vacation was also in the past, accomplished in First class ( even though the employment contract did not specifically state this ). This was arbitrarily taken away after an incident involving a couple of expat pilots commuting back to home base. Korean Air were once again punishing the whole community for the actions of a couple of inconsiderate pilots, because it suited them.
8. As stated before, the only reason why foreign pilots stick it out at KAL is the fact that it is a good commuting contract, and KAL knows this. But they will continue to lose pilots to other airlines or risk all leaving as soon other airlines follow their commuting contract example. Lets hope that KAL eventually recognize that their current corporate culture with regards to how they pay, work, train, and treat their current and future foreign pilots needs to be reviewed and dramatically improved.
The applications received by Korean Air to attend the screening process however are minimal in number to say the least and have steadily been dropping off. Why is this one may ask?
There are numerous reasons for this and I hope that by writing this, Korean Air will see how they can improve their success in maintaining current pilots and recruiting new ones:
As an active pilot with Korean Air at present, I can provide first hand knowledge as to the problems faced by the expat pilots, and additionally, what is told to me by other pilots as to the reasons why many have left KAL, or are planning to leave. It is my hope that Korean will be able to accept constructive criticism and change some of their practices for the better, as I would like to make it to retirement from their ranks at 65, a goal which, at the present time seems dubious at best.
1. It appears that while KAL see and are very aware of the problem as to having too few pilots, and are actively trying to recruit more, they are simultaneously, it would appear, on a mission to pressure the foreign pilots out of the airline. It's a fact that the KAL pilots union does not want foreign pilots in the airline. The attitude of the local Korean pilots toward foreign pilots is at best, unfriendly and there is a constant feeling of animosity. The annual line check, which, in any other airline is a routine occurrence, is a good indicator of the animosity that is felt by the local KAL pilots. The line check is used, by and large as a tool to belittle and humiliate the foreign pilot, beginning with the oral segment of the line check, where the crew being checked is subjected to an hour’s session of questions and answers, where the checker asks a random 25 questions out of a bank of approx. 200, that is meant to have been studied and memorized by heart prior to the day of the line check. No open books are allowed. A pass mark of at least 70% is required for this oral test and if not attained, cancels the line check, with the obvious consequences for the trainee.
2. While First officers are for the most part, respectful and accommodating, it is rumored often about a system in place, where they are able to anonymously report on the Captain that they happen to be flying with, and the said Capt is never given the opportunity to even challenge or defend himself against the report...it is secretly placed on his file for future reference, resulting in very experienced and competent pilots not having their contract renewed when it comes up, and not being given any reason as to why. When one hears of a 15 yr KAL pilot not being renewed with no reason given, it is no wonder that this is resulting in foreign pilots leaving KAL at the first opportunity to go to China, Turkey, etc. or holding out until the first better opportunity presents itself to protect their incomes and future.
3. Then there is something called “factoring of hours”. This is applied only to the
expat pilots and not the Koreans. What this in effect means is that depending on whether it is a two pilot operation, i.e.. Capt and F/O, or whether it is a three pilot or double crew operation, one’s hours are adjusted accordingly. This means that you can effectively be rostered to do 100+ hours in a month, but will not exceed the factored ( as far as Korean Air are concerned ) 75 hours, after which overtime is paid. They are extremely careful to ensure that no overtime is paid.
4. Expat pilots get a total of 11 days off every month ( 9 hard days and 2 days which
can be tacked on to the 9, but which are actually collectable vacation days.
The working days that are then left for Korean Air to utilize the expat pilot, are
used to the absolute maximum. The majority of the flights have a turnaround or layover time of 24 hours or less, on average 18-20 hours. This quite literally only gives one time to sleep and eat and get ready to go again. The flights are also very
often rostered East and West consecutively, giving very little consideration for the
time zone changes, etc. This schedule results in one feeling bone tired halfway through the schedule which is a safety concern. The Korean pilots find our intense schedule amusing and often remark on the fact that we have no time off between flights when they have 2-3 days off. Flying near 90 hours a month up from 75 a few yrs ago is indicative of the shortage of pilots flying.
5. Given this very high duty time utilization, Korean Air have also implemented an
on-line ground school function on their crew web site, requiring crew to spend
hours of their own time completing a series of ground school subjects prior to the
regular simulator check every six months. As there is little or no time to
accomplish this task during the pilot’s working period, this has to be done during
the pilot’s off/vacation days at home. Korean Air have also recently begun to expand on these on-line ground school courses, which now also include emergency equipment and procedures training, prior to the regular CRM training course. By providing and enforcing the completion of these training courses on line, Korean Air are saving on training days in the classroom, thus increasing the pilot utilization.
6. Korean Air have also not provided a salary increase for a number of years now for the expat pilot community, while having increased the Korean pilot’s salary packages. This has resulted in the salaries lagging way behind the industry’s market related salaries.
This is despite the fact that Korean are struggling to attract quality pilots in a
market that at present is desperately short of pilots. Korean Air seem to be of the
misguided opinion that the commuting benefit overrides everything else and that the expat pilots will accept absolutely anything for the ability for them to commute to a home base.
7. Commuting to and from one’s home base after vacation was also in the past, accomplished in First class ( even though the employment contract did not specifically state this ). This was arbitrarily taken away after an incident involving a couple of expat pilots commuting back to home base. Korean Air were once again punishing the whole community for the actions of a couple of inconsiderate pilots, because it suited them.
8. As stated before, the only reason why foreign pilots stick it out at KAL is the fact that it is a good commuting contract, and KAL knows this. But they will continue to lose pilots to other airlines or risk all leaving as soon other airlines follow their commuting contract example. Lets hope that KAL eventually recognize that their current corporate culture with regards to how they pay, work, train, and treat their current and future foreign pilots needs to be reviewed and dramatically improved.
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Fairbairn: Nice to take the time to adress here what it is a issue since a decade now. Nothing new and nothing surprising. So the choice is: Stay or leave, I did the latter after getting sick and tired of all. There are good opportunities out and better paid as well.
The betrayel on the terms outlined on the contract is what they still get away with. I am also wondering how long the Agents support the lies. It is needless to say that two parties srew the third. As long as there is supply the chain is on.
What you are writing here is missing alot of other issues. It would be embarressing to print and people at the Bar in the evening think you would make it up. No, it is the bitter reality.
The betrayel on the terms outlined on the contract is what they still get away with. I am also wondering how long the Agents support the lies. It is needless to say that two parties srew the third. As long as there is supply the chain is on.
What you are writing here is missing alot of other issues. It would be embarressing to print and people at the Bar in the evening think you would make it up. No, it is the bitter reality.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Korean Air Life
Hello Fairbarn83,
I liked your post you answered many of my questions that I have thought about. I considered Korean Air 4 years ago but ended up in China, still here. I heard the horror stories of the entire 777 class not making it to the line qual. I am flying the A330 and heard this program was more friendly at Korean Air but after reading your post feel the entire culture is not for me. I also seem them constantley advertising for pilots tells me something maybe wrong?? I am just not ready for drama. Good Luck to those who are better than me.
Take care,
On Final
I liked your post you answered many of my questions that I have thought about. I considered Korean Air 4 years ago but ended up in China, still here. I heard the horror stories of the entire 777 class not making it to the line qual. I am flying the A330 and heard this program was more friendly at Korean Air but after reading your post feel the entire culture is not for me. I also seem them constantley advertising for pilots tells me something maybe wrong?? I am just not ready for drama. Good Luck to those who are better than me.
Take care,
On Final
Join Date: Feb 2010
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KAL ISSUES
Prospective KAL pilots: Heed Fairbairn83's words well. I am former KAL pilot and everything he lists is true. Not exagerated. I could list many more professional issues as I am sure he and others could as well. Those issues have all been posted here on PPrune at one time or another. And for good reason.
A friend of mine who was sacked two months after passing his initial line check on the 777 a few years ago, had this to say:
"I didn't know what a ****ty pilot I was until I came to KAL"
A friend of mine who was sacked two months after passing his initial line check on the 777 a few years ago, had this to say:
"I didn't know what a ****ty pilot I was until I came to KAL"
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Hi everibody! I'm new on this forum, but just really interested on joining KAL 330 as a FO: anybody know how is the interview (exept from medical
, I read all about NASA health requirements
!!!)? I know I'll need to learn their manner of how to do things and all the bad concerns you wrote in this threat 
.... Can you help me sencerely? I don't want to go in EK, and I'm really determined on join KAL !!!! Can You help me please, indicating which kind of questions do they ask during the written or oral interview ? I've 9000 hrs, the most on A320/A330 
, Many thanks 
, I read all about NASA health requirements!!!)? I know I'll need to learn their manner of how to do things and all the bad concerns you wrote in this threat .... Can you help me sencerely? I don't want to go in EK, and I'm really determined on join KAL !!!! Can You help me please, indicating which kind of questions do they ask during the written or oral interview ? I've 9000 hrs, the most on A320/A330 , Many thanks
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For all of you guys that are flying there for KAL, you only but only mention the interaction with the Koreans.
How is the expat pilot community in the company? Any interaction between you (or them anyway)?
How many expats in KAL, how many Americans-Europeans and what nationalities (name a few whoever knows). Don't they get together, or fly together ever?
Even in the most difficult countries and airlines, a big part of your life while there is determined by the circle of people with whom you share common backgrounds, interests etc and spend sometime together in between flights.
I've read and heard it all about KAL all these years, never had a friend there to tell me first hand the facts, but besides the obvious difficulties with the Koreans you guys must have some good moments there no?
Might come there, so I am building up on the (important) info.
Just curious
How is the expat pilot community in the company? Any interaction between you (or them anyway)?
How many expats in KAL, how many Americans-Europeans and what nationalities (name a few whoever knows). Don't they get together, or fly together ever?
Even in the most difficult countries and airlines, a big part of your life while there is determined by the circle of people with whom you share common backgrounds, interests etc and spend sometime together in between flights.
I've read and heard it all about KAL all these years, never had a friend there to tell me first hand the facts, but besides the obvious difficulties with the Koreans you guys must have some good moments there no?
Might come there, so I am building up on the (important) info.
Just curious