Korean Air
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Korean Air
Could someone enlighten me abt the work culture in Korean Air and command upgrade as well? This query is particularly with respect to Expat First Officers....
And a brief on the recruitment process would be gr8 especially sim test, psychometric test and interview
Thanks
And a brief on the recruitment process would be gr8 especially sim test, psychometric test and interview
Thanks
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First officers are generally held to a much lower standard as you are deemed to be lower in the pecking order. The adverserial and hostile treatment is reserved for DECs as it is they are regarded as at par with the local Korean skippers as far as the company ranking is concerned. Sim and OE training for first officers are mostly easy and straight forward; just fly operate and fly their robotic cook book style and you will do fine. Actually I think Korean skippers like to fly with foreign f/os as they know that you will learn to be subservient...they get a kick out ofyou all kowtowing all over!
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Actually.
If you want to go to Korean as an FO and survive do the following:
1. Be yourself (for good and for Bad)
2. Respect the local customs yes, but always respect your own and make sure they (Koreans) do as well. They don't expect you to be like them, so don't. You'll only appear like your easily compromised and then your a B^#*H.
3. Don't listen to Expat Captains advice(no offence you pirates). They have no Idea what being an FO at Korean is like because they've never been. Your sims are just as hard, and you have no FO to turn to for the answers (because your him).
You are respected, if for nothing else than showing up for a job thats going to be pretty hard on you. You need to know everything (the old fellas don't...so).
Korean Captains like to fly with you because you can probably land, very well. You don't crap your pants when something goes wrong and your going to make New York Center, SoCAL Approach and everywhere else glad your there to sort out those pesky miscommunications.
I've had many nice flights chatting about current events, golf, food, whatever.. flying across the Pacific with Korean Captains. Its mostly a relaxed atmosphere but some guys can be pretty formal as well (see #1). There was always more good than bad for sure.
4.Know your enemy. Korean FO's write reports on expat Captains for just about anything and everything. Not so much for Expat FO's (but it does happen). Thus, limit the ammo you give them. Keep your opinions to your self, treat the Korean FO's politely but with the fire gloves on. Always.
These guys have rallied together more than a few times to end some careers. Watch out.
5. Seek out the Senior Korean Captains and let them know who you are. Not to brown nose. But to put a face to a name. If #4 happens to you you'll quickly need some local help or at least a local to say your an OK guy. Expat representation or your agency will do nothing for you.
If you want a commuting gig, there is no better than Korean. The planes work well. Hotels are ok. There is not much social life on the road but sometimes you can meet up in Anchorage (Y) for a few at F street or New York, ect with other expats.
As for the:
"skippers like to fly with foreign f/os as they know that you will learn to be subservient...they get a kick out ofyou all kowtowing all over!" Comment.
Not sure I know any Expat FO's that act like that. In fact, if you did, you wouldn't last, you would be ridden like Sea Biscuit till you quit. That comment has no merit at all. haha. Save the drama for your mama buddy.
I did 3 years at Korean. I survived on the above.
Cheers, Wally
If you want to go to Korean as an FO and survive do the following:
1. Be yourself (for good and for Bad)
2. Respect the local customs yes, but always respect your own and make sure they (Koreans) do as well. They don't expect you to be like them, so don't. You'll only appear like your easily compromised and then your a B^#*H.
3. Don't listen to Expat Captains advice(no offence you pirates). They have no Idea what being an FO at Korean is like because they've never been. Your sims are just as hard, and you have no FO to turn to for the answers (because your him).
You are respected, if for nothing else than showing up for a job thats going to be pretty hard on you. You need to know everything (the old fellas don't...so).
Korean Captains like to fly with you because you can probably land, very well. You don't crap your pants when something goes wrong and your going to make New York Center, SoCAL Approach and everywhere else glad your there to sort out those pesky miscommunications.
I've had many nice flights chatting about current events, golf, food, whatever.. flying across the Pacific with Korean Captains. Its mostly a relaxed atmosphere but some guys can be pretty formal as well (see #1). There was always more good than bad for sure.
4.Know your enemy. Korean FO's write reports on expat Captains for just about anything and everything. Not so much for Expat FO's (but it does happen). Thus, limit the ammo you give them. Keep your opinions to your self, treat the Korean FO's politely but with the fire gloves on. Always.
These guys have rallied together more than a few times to end some careers. Watch out.
5. Seek out the Senior Korean Captains and let them know who you are. Not to brown nose. But to put a face to a name. If #4 happens to you you'll quickly need some local help or at least a local to say your an OK guy. Expat representation or your agency will do nothing for you.
If you want a commuting gig, there is no better than Korean. The planes work well. Hotels are ok. There is not much social life on the road but sometimes you can meet up in Anchorage (Y) for a few at F street or New York, ect with other expats.
As for the:
"skippers like to fly with foreign f/os as they know that you will learn to be subservient...they get a kick out ofyou all kowtowing all over!" Comment.
Not sure I know any Expat FO's that act like that. In fact, if you did, you wouldn't last, you would be ridden like Sea Biscuit till you quit. That comment has no merit at all. haha. Save the drama for your mama buddy.
I did 3 years at Korean. I survived on the above.
Cheers, Wally
I have asked many people about Korean (currently employed and not) and not one of them have nice things to say.
The general thinking is only go here if you are unemployed and absolutely desperate, otherwise steer very clear of Korean.
Its a shame but I guess this is the reason they are forever advertising for foreign victims?
Don't mean to offend the easily offended - I'm just passing the messages I have been given, take that as you will -Don't go near Korean Airlines.
The general thinking is only go here if you are unemployed and absolutely desperate, otherwise steer very clear of Korean.
Its a shame but I guess this is the reason they are forever advertising for foreign victims?
Don't mean to offend the easily offended - I'm just passing the messages I have been given, take that as you will -Don't go near Korean Airlines.
Last edited by Al E. Vator; 21st Jul 2012 at 08:53.
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Korean
The screening is very tough especially the SIM. My first officer and I fly did a superb sim screening but got rejected. The expat rejection rate is very high. The locals hate expats because of their commuting contract. They have their own sim procedures for selective exercises and assess you and fail you for minor faults also. They don't believe in assessing you on the overall ability to perform and instead look for minute faults. Though they are supposed to have expat trainers on board for sim assessment monitoring, it is not done for obvious reasons.
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Don't even think about it
This is an advice for thosewho are willing to screen KAL:
It's not worth it.
They can give you the bestroster in the world, days off, etc..., but they don't tell you the worst partof it: the culture.
Their culture is sick unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, they are very nice people and veryrespectful, and I'm not saying western culture is best, but definitely they`resick. I'm not telling a lie, it's a fact that the place on earth where there ismore people committing suicide is Korea (including children!!!).
This is one of thecountries where brain-washed has been most effective. They don't have feelingsin general, they´re like robots. And that's how they fly airplanes. They do nothave situational awareness or any creativity, and on top of that they pretendyou act like them.
The local union and theair-force guys don't like each other and have some issues with the management,and the expat community is in between this battle (taking all the casualties).
Go somewhere else or stayat home for something better, it ain't worth it, believe me.
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The negatives in KAL had been done to death on Pprune over the last decade. Pilots are still lured there simply due to word of mouth by some die hard expats who seem to enjoy life there. Well for a number of these guys from first world nations, KAL was the best thing that could happen to them; they would have not made it up the big leagues elsewhere especially in their home countries. The rest are from the third world countries and the money at KAL is way above what they can dream for in their national airlines.
For those who made it through the initial pre-employment checks, and OE training and checks, there would be a honeymoon period enjoying some of the travel benefits and freebies like free meals( yucky stuff though ). After some years, you would then realise you had aged tremendously, your relationship with your family became sour and distant, your health suffered and you had become a robotic creature with all your finesse gone all due to their ridiculous operational procedures.
The years of having to explain everything 3 or 4 times just to get a simple message across ( and yet wondering in utter unease as to whether your crew really understood what you meant ), having to fly almost solo because the
inept f/os stuffed up all the R/T communication and were totally lost, situation awareness wise, enduring the most silent of cockpits in long cruise, would eventually take their toll. Worst of all wondering if you would come out alive or dead whenever you were the augment/relief crew or deadheading ( no pun intended ) when the locals or some foreign riff raffs were flying when you had good reasons to worry that they were going to stuff up.
There were so many incidences which could have made the front page headlines but didn't, by the grace of God. You would certainly wake up one day and wondered why you ever came on this ride!
For those who made it through the initial pre-employment checks, and OE training and checks, there would be a honeymoon period enjoying some of the travel benefits and freebies like free meals( yucky stuff though ). After some years, you would then realise you had aged tremendously, your relationship with your family became sour and distant, your health suffered and you had become a robotic creature with all your finesse gone all due to their ridiculous operational procedures.
The years of having to explain everything 3 or 4 times just to get a simple message across ( and yet wondering in utter unease as to whether your crew really understood what you meant ), having to fly almost solo because the
inept f/os stuffed up all the R/T communication and were totally lost, situation awareness wise, enduring the most silent of cockpits in long cruise, would eventually take their toll. Worst of all wondering if you would come out alive or dead whenever you were the augment/relief crew or deadheading ( no pun intended ) when the locals or some foreign riff raffs were flying when you had good reasons to worry that they were going to stuff up.
There were so many incidences which could have made the front page headlines but didn't, by the grace of God. You would certainly wake up one day and wondered why you ever came on this ride!
Last edited by Chuck Canuck; 3rd Aug 2012 at 22:02.
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It’s hard being a western in Asia that’s it. Home is always better; having been in EA for 1yr and 4month 12days 7hours 4sec
I can’t stand it anymore.
I can’t stand it anymore.
Last edited by CL65Driver1234; 3rd Aug 2012 at 20:26.
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Chuck Canuck,
What you say is true of any expat gig...Asia or Middle East it's all same same but different. You get through the initial training, settle into life, it ain't so bad for awhile and then it slowly starts to suck. The only difference with Korean is you get a reprieve every month by going home and the piece of mind of raising your family where you want, in the house you want, in the schools you want, without all the pollution and all the b.s. that comes with living overseas. The only thing that makes the Korean contract even a little attractive is the ability to commute, other than that the T&C's are not great but unless you have spent any time with your family in India, China, or the Middle East, you can't really know why some might choose this option towards the end of their careers. To belittle the pilots that are "lured" there is not really seeing the big picture. It's the industry that sucks right now and the individual operators just play their part in it.
What you say is true of any expat gig...Asia or Middle East it's all same same but different. You get through the initial training, settle into life, it ain't so bad for awhile and then it slowly starts to suck. The only difference with Korean is you get a reprieve every month by going home and the piece of mind of raising your family where you want, in the house you want, in the schools you want, without all the pollution and all the b.s. that comes with living overseas. The only thing that makes the Korean contract even a little attractive is the ability to commute, other than that the T&C's are not great but unless you have spent any time with your family in India, China, or the Middle East, you can't really know why some might choose this option towards the end of their careers. To belittle the pilots that are "lured" there is not really seeing the big picture. It's the industry that sucks right now and the individual operators just play their part in it.
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I know my uncle has just retired from KAL after serving them for 11 years and he has discouraged me to go for KAL. He says even if you pass the interview/med/sim, their line orientation training is very difficult as they dont like foreigners and there are chances they put you down after a period of six months of training. by this time you loose your previous aircraft recency and also the training cost which u have to pay.
you think about it before u go.
you think about it before u go.
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If you like to have responsability with ZERO authority go to KAL..
No airmanship, no good sense, no respect for expats, scared about everything and everybody (purser, cabin crew, ground staff, technical,...). There are no Happy pilot in KAL even the local's ones complain.. Good luck!
No airmanship, no good sense, no respect for expats, scared about everything and everybody (purser, cabin crew, ground staff, technical,...). There are no Happy pilot in KAL even the local's ones complain.. Good luck!
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Actually.
If you want to go to Korean as an FO and survive do the following:
If you want to go to Korean as an FO and survive do the following:
I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly at KAL but also spent 7 mostly enjoyable years there. It is what you make of it.
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What are the new T&C'S ? I'm almost afraid to ask since you get the bitter brigade with lightning bolts coming out of their eyes
I have read most of your posts and I'm quite familiar with your distaste of everything KAL, I'm just curious to see if they were significant without having to send an email and expressing interest, as KAL has been one of the airlines reluctant to increase their pay and improve working environment for expats, if they are taking steps towards mending that then that is an indication of the strain on carriers to get qualified applicants, that is why I'm asking.
I have read most of your posts and I'm quite familiar with your distaste of everything KAL, I'm just curious to see if they were significant without having to send an email and expressing interest, as KAL has been one of the airlines reluctant to increase their pay and improve working environment for expats, if they are taking steps towards mending that then that is an indication of the strain on carriers to get qualified applicants, that is why I'm asking.
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Direct personnel added a foot note "new terms and conditions" that is why I was asking, it seems those are requirements you speak off. Because they wouldn't mislead you in any way
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J: I believe most of the recruitment agencies put that carrot in there to fool pilots who don't pay close attention to the contract market into believing conditions have improved.
Rishworth is well known for advertising non existing jobs, just to boost their pool of applicants, so they can show prospective airlines how "big" they are.
That being said, existing contractors for KAL are telling their pilots that there WILL be a pay rise, but no details on how much and when.
If the increase turns out to be just a few bucks, I fear it will just piss the pilots off more than maintaining the status quo...
KAL will recruit 120 expat pilots in 2013 according to themselves...
Time will tell!
Rishworth is well known for advertising non existing jobs, just to boost their pool of applicants, so they can show prospective airlines how "big" they are.
That being said, existing contractors for KAL are telling their pilots that there WILL be a pay rise, but no details on how much and when.
If the increase turns out to be just a few bucks, I fear it will just piss the pilots off more than maintaining the status quo...
KAL will recruit 120 expat pilots in 2013 according to themselves...
Time will tell!
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B737 jobs
After reading most of this thread I have a question.
KAL being a bad or good employer depends on your point of view?!
My friend is currently an FO in a budget airline in South Asia.
Will reach 1500 hours next spring and flies B737.
Already flying in and adapted to 'the asian culture' but from western Europe.
How is flying for KAL if you compare it with other (south) asian airlines?
When not looking at pay and benefit differences, they will be better.
Anyone out there with details on the recruitment process and line training?
Appreciate the info!
KAL being a bad or good employer depends on your point of view?!
My friend is currently an FO in a budget airline in South Asia.
Will reach 1500 hours next spring and flies B737.
Already flying in and adapted to 'the asian culture' but from western Europe.
How is flying for KAL if you compare it with other (south) asian airlines?
When not looking at pay and benefit differences, they will be better.
Anyone out there with details on the recruitment process and line training?
Appreciate the info!
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Korean Air "Yes" or "No"?
Fellow Pilots,
I almost set up and interview with Korean Air in 2008 until I read the slaughter of the highly qualified B-777 class. I think most of the class was sacked..! I read the posts and went to China (still here).
I am currently on the A330 and looking at Korean Air, I heard the A330 fleet was a different situation than the B777 group, but dont really know.
I can put up with difficult training, crazy tests, lack of English but here is what I want to know.
When you are flying the line, what is the culture in the cockpit? How is it to survive and get along with the copilots? Rumor has it, the copilots tend to snitch out the Captain who loolks at a news paper, Ipad at cruise or other small things?
Can anyone on the inside tell me what the story is?
In China I can say, I like my job, get alongt with the cruise and have no worry to maintain my employment. My only worry is the medical and age 60 rule.
I would like to live in Frankfort and commute on Korean Air.
Let me know if you dont mind telling your story,
Thanks,
On Final
I almost set up and interview with Korean Air in 2008 until I read the slaughter of the highly qualified B-777 class. I think most of the class was sacked..! I read the posts and went to China (still here).
I am currently on the A330 and looking at Korean Air, I heard the A330 fleet was a different situation than the B777 group, but dont really know.
I can put up with difficult training, crazy tests, lack of English but here is what I want to know.
When you are flying the line, what is the culture in the cockpit? How is it to survive and get along with the copilots? Rumor has it, the copilots tend to snitch out the Captain who loolks at a news paper, Ipad at cruise or other small things?
Can anyone on the inside tell me what the story is?
In China I can say, I like my job, get alongt with the cruise and have no worry to maintain my employment. My only worry is the medical and age 60 rule.
I would like to live in Frankfort and commute on Korean Air.
Let me know if you dont mind telling your story,
Thanks,
On Final