Near Miss at Mumbai Airport
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Bug
This one from the bug sheet, courtesy supy rookie "pilot" riding shotgun in the cockpit:-
cleared for take off rwy 27
n1 stablised at 47% thn lever to MCT
100knt callout but both capt nd copilot 'anant dewan
same moment a chopper appeared from above the air india hangar and started to move in turning towards rwy27 slowly facing it back towards ic866.... same moment thrust was brought to idle nd reversers deployed (rev are deployed whn auto brake at max ad thrust at idle ..not at rev thrust...)) aborted at 126 knots....capt kohli did tried turning ac to a bit on the left and luckily there was ''w'' da rapidexitway...when both the chopper and 866 came to half da diference was arond 25-30 feet....not 300 meters as mentined in da newspapers...but guess that was done due to security measures...at full stop the ac was half on runway and half on the beginning of the taxiway...the call sign was PPF parked at bay 18 with alternate AAH ... tow: 76.5 T (reading it out straight from the buck card xerox as original was attached to the FSR (flight safety record form.....)
vi being 149....vR being 151 and V2 as 154knots...wnds were 230/03 knots....were to follow ANOLI1A departure with DOTIP transition....
cleared for take off rwy 27
n1 stablised at 47% thn lever to MCT
100knt callout but both capt nd copilot 'anant dewan
same moment a chopper appeared from above the air india hangar and started to move in turning towards rwy27 slowly facing it back towards ic866.... same moment thrust was brought to idle nd reversers deployed (rev are deployed whn auto brake at max ad thrust at idle ..not at rev thrust...)) aborted at 126 knots....capt kohli did tried turning ac to a bit on the left and luckily there was ''w'' da rapidexitway...when both the chopper and 866 came to half da diference was arond 25-30 feet....not 300 meters as mentined in da newspapers...but guess that was done due to security measures...at full stop the ac was half on runway and half on the beginning of the taxiway...the call sign was PPF parked at bay 18 with alternate AAH ... tow: 76.5 T (reading it out straight from the buck card xerox as original was attached to the FSR (flight safety record form.....)
vi being 149....vR being 151 and V2 as 154knots...wnds were 230/03 knots....were to follow ANOLI1A departure with DOTIP transition....
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skills
beg to differ with you brother agent123, heard in india (other than bom and del) the radars fails umpteen times and the coverage is just like a mirage 'cause of siting probs, hence the extra margin for safety in case of failure yet to take place, necessitates larger separations. the hands are always tied to the back
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Exactly my sentiments. Thank you Aviatcoin.
The controllers in India are no less competent or more than anyone else in the world. They have just been dealt a ****ty hand and are playing the best they can. Remember, without adequate radar coverage,the controlling is all procedural.In this day and age, with secondary radar , computer and communications technology, it is unfair for the controllers in India to be expected to play three dimensional chess in their heads. If they are doing that, every once in a while, defecation will happen.
Alt3.
The controllers in India are no less competent or more than anyone else in the world. They have just been dealt a ****ty hand and are playing the best they can. Remember, without adequate radar coverage,the controlling is all procedural.In this day and age, with secondary radar , computer and communications technology, it is unfair for the controllers in India to be expected to play three dimensional chess in their heads. If they are doing that, every once in a while, defecation will happen.
Alt3.
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@ alouette 3
Beg to differ on your statement dude i.e.
There has always been a misconception about Russian aircrat being technically inferior to western ones, in the aspect of aerodynamics, avionics and so on. Even Russian pilots are not spared when they get involved in an accident in international airspace.
There was a midair collision a while back between a DHL 757 and a Russian TU154 M over Germany. The airspace was controlled by swiss skyguide. They were quick to pass on the blame on the Russian pilots, But further investigation revealed otherwise......
The skyguide controller was at fault.
I am not trying to say that the Indians were at fault for the colllision over Charkhi-Dadri, But still that remains a strong possibility given the rise in numbers of close shaves these days....
Only now the planes are back on terra firma in one piece and there are pilots who live to tell the tale.
Blaming the dead pilots have always been the easiest thing to do for airlines and aviation agencies to push the blame ball out of their court.
The 1990 Indian airlines crash was blamed on the poor pilots...case closed.
It was found that the A320 did have an error in the altitude mode selector, as evident from the Air Inter crash and the Mulhouse crash.
All we need is a competent authority like the FAA and the NTSB.
And for God's sake we need to let go of that 'chalta hai' attitude, and I think we shall have safe skies once again.
Cheers,
VT-ASM
Beg to differ on your statement dude i.e.
There has always been a misconception about Russian aircrat being technically inferior to western ones, in the aspect of aerodynamics, avionics and so on. Even Russian pilots are not spared when they get involved in an accident in international airspace.
There was a midair collision a while back between a DHL 757 and a Russian TU154 M over Germany. The airspace was controlled by swiss skyguide. They were quick to pass on the blame on the Russian pilots, But further investigation revealed otherwise......
The skyguide controller was at fault.
I am not trying to say that the Indians were at fault for the colllision over Charkhi-Dadri, But still that remains a strong possibility given the rise in numbers of close shaves these days....
Only now the planes are back on terra firma in one piece and there are pilots who live to tell the tale.
Blaming the dead pilots have always been the easiest thing to do for airlines and aviation agencies to push the blame ball out of their court.
The 1990 Indian airlines crash was blamed on the poor pilots...case closed.
It was found that the A320 did have an error in the altitude mode selector, as evident from the Air Inter crash and the Mulhouse crash.
All we need is a competent authority like the FAA and the NTSB.
And for God's sake we need to let go of that 'chalta hai' attitude, and I think we shall have safe skies once again.
Cheers,
VT-ASM
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@VT-ASM
Mate it wasn't controllers fault...It was sky guides managment fault.....They were to carry out maintainence but they got everything wrong. They didn't had enough controllers that night (or any night)....The controller didn't had his instruments like phone,Radar emergency warning, computer were working slow by approx. 40 seconds all due to maintainence and they didn't had any backup......
There was a midair collision a while back between a DHL 757 and a Russian TU154 M over Germany. The airspace was controlled by swiss skyguide. They were quick to pass on the blame on the Russian pilots, But further investigation revealed otherwise......
The skyguide controller was at fault.
The skyguide controller was at fault.
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They were to carry out maintainence but they got everything wrong. They didn't had enough controllers that night (or any night)....The controller didn't had his instruments like phone,Radar emergency warning, computer were working slow by approx. 40 seconds all due to maintainence and they didn't had any backup......
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The TU154 crew followed the late ATC instructions,even though the RA was telling them to do just the opposite.(so who is to blame for that?)
In all air accidents,no matter who triggers the chain of errors,its always upto the pilots to prevent the last hole in the swiss cheese from lining up.
And now they have technology to help them, in the shape of "flt envelope protection" ,TCAS,and EGPWS.
The job profile requires individuals whose "Thinking" and technical understanding is sound, and who are able to focus,and clearly and quickly prioritise tasks.
Most people given proper training/adequate experience(preferably on type)are upto the demands of the job.
However,like in any line of work a certain small percentage(which varies according to airline/work culture)are just not upto the task,and in an ideal situation should be "retrained"(or put on some other job if beyond retraining.)
In the Charkhi Dadri case the collision actually occured when the IL76 crew tried to climb back to the level cleared,having already busted it and "safely" descended below the reciprocal Saudia 747s level.
As a sad postscript the Swiss skyguide contoller was killed by the father of one of the children who died in the TU154.
In all air accidents,no matter who triggers the chain of errors,its always upto the pilots to prevent the last hole in the swiss cheese from lining up.
And now they have technology to help them, in the shape of "flt envelope protection" ,TCAS,and EGPWS.
The job profile requires individuals whose "Thinking" and technical understanding is sound, and who are able to focus,and clearly and quickly prioritise tasks.
Most people given proper training/adequate experience(preferably on type)are upto the demands of the job.
However,like in any line of work a certain small percentage(which varies according to airline/work culture)are just not upto the task,and in an ideal situation should be "retrained"(or put on some other job if beyond retraining.)
In the Charkhi Dadri case the collision actually occured when the IL76 crew tried to climb back to the level cleared,having already busted it and "safely" descended below the reciprocal Saudia 747s level.
As a sad postscript the Swiss skyguide contoller was killed by the father of one of the children who died in the TU154.
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@bs7: guess you just didn't read it from the top 
It is still surprising to see people freeze when they get a RA. Saw my skipper do that once,(freeze), when we were entering Dhaka Airspace where everything's done "in co-ordination" with the other control.
It is still surprising to see people freeze when they get a RA. Saw my skipper do that once,(freeze), when we were entering Dhaka Airspace where everything's done "in co-ordination" with the other control.
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Controllers/Pilots?!!
It would be correct to say that Sky Guides operations triggered the initial collision course of the two aircraft( Time Lag on the screens, Inoperative equipment due to maintenance leading to unsuccessful internal communications).
Commenting on the Tupolev crew: It was a training flight with the senior training captain in the jumpseat. The Tupolev's TCAS picked up the collision course well before the 757"s. At the same time Skyguide instructed the two a/c different FLs.
Being a bit late(obviously due to the time lag), both the TCAS's warnings on the a/c were getting serious. The TCAS warnings on both the aircraft didn't correspond to Skyguide instructions. Russian training being quite orthodox and different from the rest of the world, the training captain of the TU ordered the captain to comply with Skyguide whereas the First Officer urged his Captain to obey TCAS controls. The Captain decided to obey his Training captain.
The 757 crew complied with TCAS..
Guess what?....
My personal belief and conclusion: The main cause here is CREW RESOURCE MANAGEMENT. Fair enough a flawless and fully functional radar control system wouldn't have led to the accident. But a global standardization of cockpit ethics would have saved the lives of various.
You think controlling in India is poor.. Try Africa!!!
Sorry to deviate from the post..Just wanted to clear things up..
Big up to Capt. Kohli.
Safe Flying to ev1.
Commenting on the Tupolev crew: It was a training flight with the senior training captain in the jumpseat. The Tupolev's TCAS picked up the collision course well before the 757"s. At the same time Skyguide instructed the two a/c different FLs.
Being a bit late(obviously due to the time lag), both the TCAS's warnings on the a/c were getting serious. The TCAS warnings on both the aircraft didn't correspond to Skyguide instructions. Russian training being quite orthodox and different from the rest of the world, the training captain of the TU ordered the captain to comply with Skyguide whereas the First Officer urged his Captain to obey TCAS controls. The Captain decided to obey his Training captain.
The 757 crew complied with TCAS..
Guess what?....
My personal belief and conclusion: The main cause here is CREW RESOURCE MANAGEMENT. Fair enough a flawless and fully functional radar control system wouldn't have led to the accident. But a global standardization of cockpit ethics would have saved the lives of various.
You think controlling in India is poor.. Try Africa!!!
Sorry to deviate from the post..Just wanted to clear things up..
Big up to Capt. Kohli.
Safe Flying to ev1.
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I think that the ICAO was at fault in that incident.....At that time there was no ruling that whom should pilot obey - TCAS or The controller.....Such incident happened in japan just weeks before this incident. ICAO didn't do anything about it... They just sat and were waiting untill there's a crash....
Russian obeyed the controller.....There would be many pilots who would hav opted for that given the circumstances.....
And mate how many airlines in africa are certified by FAA or JAA....Only one airline by FAA....Thats a continent which is politically unstable. No rules and regulations......Thabo Mbeki, Robert Mugabe......African continent is ruined...it's going into pieces....Even UN agrees to that....The literacy rate is well below any other continent.....The life expectancy is just 21....So how can u compare india with that nation....Or it just tells our situation that thats what we can compare to......Thats what our own level is.....
http://www.icao.int/isd/avsecafrica/...ica_Report.pdf
Africa Renewal, United Nations key reports on Africa
Russian obeyed the controller.....There would be many pilots who would hav opted for that given the circumstances.....
And mate how many airlines in africa are certified by FAA or JAA....Only one airline by FAA....Thats a continent which is politically unstable. No rules and regulations......Thabo Mbeki, Robert Mugabe......African continent is ruined...it's going into pieces....Even UN agrees to that....The literacy rate is well below any other continent.....The life expectancy is just 21....So how can u compare india with that nation....Or it just tells our situation that thats what we can compare to......Thats what our own level is.....
http://www.icao.int/isd/avsecafrica/...ica_Report.pdf
Africa Renewal, United Nations key reports on Africa
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Too much inside the box thinking not a good thing
If the crew has a sound understanding of the system,(and keep themselves informed,about potential threats)they need not wiat for ICAO or anyone else to put pen to paper.
That is the reason we still have people sitting at the sharp end of airplanes.
CRM calls for the use of all available resources(that includes expensive fancy gadgets like TCAS,even if specifically not mentioned in any ICAO/Company procedure)
When ICAO and everyone else gets their act togather(and figure out a solution for every scenerio)they will replace the pilots with software.
And since they are unlikely to get up to speed anytime very soon,pilots will be around for a while yet.
Especially the ones who dont wait to see everything on the correct bit of paper,when the situation calls for it.
That is the reason we still have people sitting at the sharp end of airplanes.
CRM calls for the use of all available resources(that includes expensive fancy gadgets like TCAS,even if specifically not mentioned in any ICAO/Company procedure)
When ICAO and everyone else gets their act togather(and figure out a solution for every scenerio)they will replace the pilots with software.
And since they are unlikely to get up to speed anytime very soon,pilots will be around for a while yet.
Especially the ones who dont wait to see everything on the correct bit of paper,when the situation calls for it.
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'It's been proved time and again that no matter what the technology at your command, the man in the machine is paramount......
Well i think that pilots are forever....
No one can replace a human skills....Not even software, no matter how good or accurate they are.....
Well i think that pilots are forever....
No one can replace a human skills....Not even software, no matter how good or accurate they are.....
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Back to Bombay ATC: flew out today and we had about 25 minutes hold at 27-09, but no movement at all on the intersecting RWY. Any idea why the second RWY is not in use?
Last edited by Al Fakhem; 21st Feb 2009 at 07:43.
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Expensive Gadget?
Hi there Leftsideview (student or captain?) No offense man but I strongly disagree on claiming TCAS as an expensive gadget. I think its a complete ridiculous statement considering worldwide airspaces are now RVSM active. It is in fact a mandatory ICAO requirement for aircrafts flying at those FLs.
I agree with Schumi - Red Baron. A320 tests in the 90's have proved it in the best fashion. Plus its not up to ICAO to decide on who or how many crew fly the aircraft. In fact there is a minimum crew number stated for legal operation. Check conventional Russian carriers (nothing against them) flying with 4-6 crews.
I agree with Schumi - Red Baron. A320 tests in the 90's have proved it in the best fashion. Plus its not up to ICAO to decide on who or how many crew fly the aircraft. In fact there is a minimum crew number stated for legal operation. Check conventional Russian carriers (nothing against them) flying with 4-6 crews.