Shenzhen Airlines
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China pilots ltd
Hi all,
I am looking at some contracts with China Pilots Ltd but I was wondering if any body out there had any infos on them, ie current work relations with the crews, payments of salaries on time etc
thanks for any infos.
safe flying
I am looking at some contracts with China Pilots Ltd but I was wondering if any body out there had any infos on them, ie current work relations with the crews, payments of salaries on time etc
thanks for any infos.
safe flying
Join Date: Feb 2010
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"Beware"
Anybody who is thinking about coming to Shenzhen Airlines needs to think about what this could do to their future.
Ask the pilot who right now is battleing with the company about a hard landing. He is already down $10,000 and counting.
Ask the foreign instructor and his student who had a hard landing early last year. These landings are determind by the QAR in the airplane, a means of judging a hard landing that Boeing says is unreliable.
Ask the pilots who had to retain a lawyer to avoid being punished for not following a company policy that was only written in Chinese.
Ask any agent about the punishments that you will be facing for various infractions.
You will be working four days on and two days off, any meeting that the company requires you to attend will be on YOUR day off and does not count as being on duty.
There is also a high rate of good pilots who fail checkrides in the sim or that fail line checks.
Just a few days ago I received multiple emails on the subject of illegally long duty days. Last summer there was so many delays that at least one pilot took a month unpaid leave to recooperate. It is not getting any better.
I can continue with many more examples.
If you are considering Shenzhen, I hope that for your sake you will review what has already been written by clrbu22, jota jota, fly fly and others.
Coming here can change your career in a way you may not like.
Ask the pilot who right now is battleing with the company about a hard landing. He is already down $10,000 and counting.
Ask the foreign instructor and his student who had a hard landing early last year. These landings are determind by the QAR in the airplane, a means of judging a hard landing that Boeing says is unreliable.
Ask the pilots who had to retain a lawyer to avoid being punished for not following a company policy that was only written in Chinese.
Ask any agent about the punishments that you will be facing for various infractions.
You will be working four days on and two days off, any meeting that the company requires you to attend will be on YOUR day off and does not count as being on duty.
There is also a high rate of good pilots who fail checkrides in the sim or that fail line checks.
Just a few days ago I received multiple emails on the subject of illegally long duty days. Last summer there was so many delays that at least one pilot took a month unpaid leave to recooperate. It is not getting any better.
I can continue with many more examples.
If you are considering Shenzhen, I hope that for your sake you will review what has already been written by clrbu22, jota jota, fly fly and others.
Coming here can change your career in a way you may not like.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Shenzhen, China
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Beware of What?
I have to say that I get a little irritated about some of the posts I see about Shenzhen Airlines. If you look at the various forums on PPRUNE, you can find this kind of stuff about every airline in the world. "Someone I know failed a checkride. He got screwed because he is a foreigner," or "the contract isn't worth anything," or "I had to go to a meeting on my day off." I you listen to all of these dire warnings, you could never take a job anywhere in the world.
I have to say that in my time at Shenzhen Airlines, I have not seen "a high rate of good pilots who fail check rides." There have been a few, but definitely not a large number (and they give you a 2nd chance). I can also say that I have been assigned some long duty days, but it doesnt happen often and I can guarantee you that they don't violate CAAC regulations. Do they tread in the gray area? Sometimes...but lots of the things you find in these posts are half truths or exaggerations. If you have done contract work anywhere in the world you know that it isnt going to be like working 8 days a month at American Airlines.
One thing I will agree with is that Shenzhen (and other airlines in China) are very sensitive to hard landings. There was an A320 crash here about 8 years ago (not Shenzhen Airlines) that involved a hard landing so the CAAC has required all of the airlines to focus on it (probably a little too much).
This is the bottom line for me: It is a good, high paying job. I can be home most nights with my family. I let the small things go and try not to have any hard landings. I try to be respectful and understand that this isn't Kansas. I am here because there aren't a lot of jobs out there. China is a place where penalizing people for infractions is a cultural thing. It isnt just pilots...even the office staff get dinged if they make a mistake. I just do my job and everything goes pretty smooth.
Coming here for me has been OK so far!
I have to say that in my time at Shenzhen Airlines, I have not seen "a high rate of good pilots who fail check rides." There have been a few, but definitely not a large number (and they give you a 2nd chance). I can also say that I have been assigned some long duty days, but it doesnt happen often and I can guarantee you that they don't violate CAAC regulations. Do they tread in the gray area? Sometimes...but lots of the things you find in these posts are half truths or exaggerations. If you have done contract work anywhere in the world you know that it isnt going to be like working 8 days a month at American Airlines.
One thing I will agree with is that Shenzhen (and other airlines in China) are very sensitive to hard landings. There was an A320 crash here about 8 years ago (not Shenzhen Airlines) that involved a hard landing so the CAAC has required all of the airlines to focus on it (probably a little too much).
This is the bottom line for me: It is a good, high paying job. I can be home most nights with my family. I let the small things go and try not to have any hard landings. I try to be respectful and understand that this isn't Kansas. I am here because there aren't a lot of jobs out there. China is a place where penalizing people for infractions is a cultural thing. It isnt just pilots...even the office staff get dinged if they make a mistake. I just do my job and everything goes pretty smooth.
Coming here for me has been OK so far!
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Just wanted to add some information for those of you considering Shenzhen Airlines or any other airline here in China.
Here at Shenzhen there has been a some Simulator and Line check failures. I personally can attest that, in one particular case, a guy was singled out and failed on a check-ride because he didn't let the CAAC inspector ( a Shenzhen pilot) smoke on his jumpseat some weeks prior to his PC. This WAS NOT a whining pilot but one that has been flying the line here for years and has done it exceptionally. He consequently paid for another sim check and CAAC requires it to be done by the same guy that fails you. On the re-check, the inspector (if you choose to call him that) didn't even repeat the "so called" failed event. Of course the guy passed and is now considering leaving.
Another guy just failed his line check because he selected an altitude (while his FO was doing something) and selected V/S down before the cross cockpit verrification. This "inspector" told the Captain that he passed. So, he continued to fly the next 2 legs with the inspector. When they landed (after they were back in domicile) the inspector suddenly changed his mind and failed him. I believe that youi go on half pay until you fly some line checks with a Chinese instructor then take another line check.
Another guy just had a hard landing (2.7-2.8 g's according to the QAR on the Boeing). His 500 hour first officer was flying; the aircraft encountered a sinker on short final and the captain appropriately took over. Again, this guy payed for all "3" checkrides to get back onto flying status. (This was during the time when the major shareholder of Shenzhen airlines was arrested and took to Beijing; shortly after that one other corrupt Shenzhen management puke quit). Because of this, every so called "safety agency" in china wanted to get a piece of this guy before allowing him to fly again.
Another guy was hijacked by his passengers for 8 hours ( I believe) on the ground. He was held against his will along with the other crewmembers. I've read this guys report to Shenzhen Airlines and can tell you that he did everything that you and I would have done. Shenzhen Airlines ignored his radio calls to Dispatch for help, the ground refused to help, the police at the Boan airport told him that it was Shenzhen airlines's problem. After everything was over, shenzhen swept the whole thing under the table and nothing was ever heard again about it.
I could write until my fingers bleed about the different maintenance issues, corruption and damned politics that it takes to make a living here. It wears on you till you feel like you want to strangle your F/O before you even brief him.
The Chinese are an oppressed society, pilots are no different! We are subject to all their messed up laws (or "guidelines" as they call them) and must turn a blind eye to their cutting corners and coercion . Try to change things here and you'll get a name for yourself.
This place is amazingly incompetent in every aspect of aviation and I personally can not wait to leave. If you need a job, certainly take it if they offer but don't get to comfortable. China and Asia for that matter, is corrupt on a scale that I can not covey; for that you must fly here to know.
To Peoplemover,
If your experiences here are good then my hat off to you and I hope that it continues to be that for you and your family. A sad fact of flying in Asia is that good pilots fail checkrides too and sometimes the failures are not legitimate. This fact is not felt more than here at Shenzhen. The first guy I was talking about (failed sim ride) lost one months pay ($11,750) and 30 days vacation. Add to that the sim cost and worry. The Chinese are very vindictive and if you bruise their pride, you WILL get burned.
Your comment "I can guarantee you that they don't violate CAAC regulations". This is a flat out ignorant statement (it doesnt mean that you are supid just that you dont know what you are talking about). I can personally attest to (and other pilots as well) to illegally scheduled trips that bust duty and rest regulations. I've personally had to call and be quit adamant about rescheduling my trips to meet CAAC regulations. Might I also remind you that the Chinese do not count simulator time for a PC, Recurrent nor pilot meetings as rest! If you haven't been scheduled for a 4 day after 3 days in the sim yet then I say you need to wait before making such definitive comments.
Where is this "Grey area" you talk about. The CAAC regulations are quit clear and a blatant cut and paste of the FAA regulations with a few twists.
Whats irritating to me is comments that lack facts....
Can we still be friends
Here at Shenzhen there has been a some Simulator and Line check failures. I personally can attest that, in one particular case, a guy was singled out and failed on a check-ride because he didn't let the CAAC inspector ( a Shenzhen pilot) smoke on his jumpseat some weeks prior to his PC. This WAS NOT a whining pilot but one that has been flying the line here for years and has done it exceptionally. He consequently paid for another sim check and CAAC requires it to be done by the same guy that fails you. On the re-check, the inspector (if you choose to call him that) didn't even repeat the "so called" failed event. Of course the guy passed and is now considering leaving.
Another guy just failed his line check because he selected an altitude (while his FO was doing something) and selected V/S down before the cross cockpit verrification. This "inspector" told the Captain that he passed. So, he continued to fly the next 2 legs with the inspector. When they landed (after they were back in domicile) the inspector suddenly changed his mind and failed him. I believe that youi go on half pay until you fly some line checks with a Chinese instructor then take another line check.
Another guy just had a hard landing (2.7-2.8 g's according to the QAR on the Boeing). His 500 hour first officer was flying; the aircraft encountered a sinker on short final and the captain appropriately took over. Again, this guy payed for all "3" checkrides to get back onto flying status. (This was during the time when the major shareholder of Shenzhen airlines was arrested and took to Beijing; shortly after that one other corrupt Shenzhen management puke quit). Because of this, every so called "safety agency" in china wanted to get a piece of this guy before allowing him to fly again.
Another guy was hijacked by his passengers for 8 hours ( I believe) on the ground. He was held against his will along with the other crewmembers. I've read this guys report to Shenzhen Airlines and can tell you that he did everything that you and I would have done. Shenzhen Airlines ignored his radio calls to Dispatch for help, the ground refused to help, the police at the Boan airport told him that it was Shenzhen airlines's problem. After everything was over, shenzhen swept the whole thing under the table and nothing was ever heard again about it.
I could write until my fingers bleed about the different maintenance issues, corruption and damned politics that it takes to make a living here. It wears on you till you feel like you want to strangle your F/O before you even brief him.
The Chinese are an oppressed society, pilots are no different! We are subject to all their messed up laws (or "guidelines" as they call them) and must turn a blind eye to their cutting corners and coercion . Try to change things here and you'll get a name for yourself.
This place is amazingly incompetent in every aspect of aviation and I personally can not wait to leave. If you need a job, certainly take it if they offer but don't get to comfortable. China and Asia for that matter, is corrupt on a scale that I can not covey; for that you must fly here to know.
To Peoplemover,
If your experiences here are good then my hat off to you and I hope that it continues to be that for you and your family. A sad fact of flying in Asia is that good pilots fail checkrides too and sometimes the failures are not legitimate. This fact is not felt more than here at Shenzhen. The first guy I was talking about (failed sim ride) lost one months pay ($11,750) and 30 days vacation. Add to that the sim cost and worry. The Chinese are very vindictive and if you bruise their pride, you WILL get burned.
Your comment "I can guarantee you that they don't violate CAAC regulations". This is a flat out ignorant statement (it doesnt mean that you are supid just that you dont know what you are talking about). I can personally attest to (and other pilots as well) to illegally scheduled trips that bust duty and rest regulations. I've personally had to call and be quit adamant about rescheduling my trips to meet CAAC regulations. Might I also remind you that the Chinese do not count simulator time for a PC, Recurrent nor pilot meetings as rest! If you haven't been scheduled for a 4 day after 3 days in the sim yet then I say you need to wait before making such definitive comments.
Where is this "Grey area" you talk about. The CAAC regulations are quit clear and a blatant cut and paste of the FAA regulations with a few twists.
Whats irritating to me is comments that lack facts....
Can we still be friends
Last edited by clrblu22; 22nd Feb 2010 at 11:35. Reason: adding text
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Beware of the things YOU pointed out.
Peoplemover, You answered your own question. I'm not trying to tell pilots not to come here, but rather educate them about this place so they can make an informed decision.
Not everybody has been around the world like you and me.
You are right about the punishment culture here.
On the checkride side of things, in the last year I know of 6 failed checkrides which amounts to about 8% of the foreign pilots here.
A year ago there was a class of 11 Chinese FO's where only 1 passed the upgrade to captain. You say that they will give you another chance if you fail in the sim. This is true, but you did not say who pays for the sim. The captain who failed does. We have several examples of this.
You talk about having few overnights, well that depends on what airplane you are on. The airbus has plenty of examples of 4 day trips.
I think you answered your own question very well and I apologize if I made you mad.
One very good thing about coming here is the medical. If there is anything wrong with you they will find it. It is a very comprehensive medical, so it may be worth coming here just to see if you will pass and if you do, you will not have a problem at Korean or in Japan.
Not everybody has been around the world like you and me.
You are right about the punishment culture here.
On the checkride side of things, in the last year I know of 6 failed checkrides which amounts to about 8% of the foreign pilots here.
A year ago there was a class of 11 Chinese FO's where only 1 passed the upgrade to captain. You say that they will give you another chance if you fail in the sim. This is true, but you did not say who pays for the sim. The captain who failed does. We have several examples of this.
You talk about having few overnights, well that depends on what airplane you are on. The airbus has plenty of examples of 4 day trips.
I think you answered your own question very well and I apologize if I made you mad.
One very good thing about coming here is the medical. If there is anything wrong with you they will find it. It is a very comprehensive medical, so it may be worth coming here just to see if you will pass and if you do, you will not have a problem at Korean or in Japan.
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The problems at Shenzhen Airlines may be political and all the pilots are just pawns in a bigger game.
Go to Businessweek.com and look at their 3-4-2010 artical on Shenzhen airlines it explains a lot. This is also the day that police arrested the president of the airline. The last pice was reported in the South China Daily today.
Go to Businessweek.com and look at their 3-4-2010 artical on Shenzhen airlines it explains a lot. This is also the day that police arrested the president of the airline. The last pice was reported in the South China Daily today.
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Maybe this will Void all Expat contracts? Maybe someone more contract savvy could voice their opinion on that one.
It's about time that Shenzhen Airlines gets a good cleaning. Hopefully all the management personnel will go away and someone that knows how to run an airline (an honest one I hope) will take over.
It's about time that Shenzhen Airlines gets a good cleaning. Hopefully all the management personnel will go away and someone that knows how to run an airline (an honest one I hope) will take over.
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Things that make you go Hmmm...?
Another Shenzhen arrest leaves airline control up for grabsTuesday March 9, 2010
Shenzhen Airlines CEO Li Kun was arrested Saturday for alleged financial irregularities, allowing Air China to deepen its involvement in the country's fifth-largest carrier through the appointment of Shenzhen vice chairman and former CA VP Fan Cheng as acting CEO.
Li formerly was vice GM of China Southern Airlines and became CEO of ZH in 2005 following its privatization. Li Zeyuan, who outbid CA and purchased a 65% share of Shenzhen at that time, then was arrested under similar circumstances last November. Li Zeyuan's legal trouble prompted a tussle for control of ZH between CA and China Southern Airlines (ATWOnline, Jan. 8).
CA currently holds 25% of ZH and has been angling to increase its share for some time. Following Le Zeyuan's arrest, CA named Fan as ZH's vice chairman and Finance Director Li Youqiang to the same role at Shenzhen.
Industry analysts have said that Li Zeyuan's stake may be split between CA and the Shenzhen municipal government, which now holds 10% of the airline. It has been reported that the government also is keen to increase its participation ZH. Vice Mayor Zhang Siping noted at the end of last year that the "Shenzhen municipal government will support Shenzhen Airlines, as always, no matter what. It won't change that Shenzhen will remain an independent company and there won't be big layoffs."
by Katie Cantle
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Go Where The $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Is !!!!
Web Site: http://www.chinaaviationrecruitment.com
Not saying that anyone should use this recruiter just wanted to post it to show that the pay at Shenzhen Airlines is not what it should be. Not even close.
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China Avation doesn't appear to be recruiting for Shenzhen Airlines. Have you mistaken by Sichuan Airlines ?
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China Aviation
China Aviation doesn't have any jobs. This is the same guy that runs Climbto350. Most of these jobs do not exist at all and if they do, China Aviation doesn't have the contracts for these positions. I think they just try and gather names in hopes of getting a contract deal.
I wasted a LOT of time trying to go through them. Don't waste yours or take what you read on their website to be accurate.
I wasted a LOT of time trying to go through them. Don't waste yours or take what you read on their website to be accurate.
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"""Web Site: http://www.chinaaviationrecruitment.com
Not saying that anyone should use this recruiter just wanted to post it to show that the pay at Shenzhen Airlines is not what it should be. Not even close.""""
I didn't post this for recruitment to Shenzhen, only for information that other airlines are paying more.
Not saying that anyone should use this recruiter just wanted to post it to show that the pay at Shenzhen Airlines is not what it should be. Not even close.""""
I didn't post this for recruitment to Shenzhen, only for information that other airlines are paying more.