ATO Philippines vs ICAO or FAA
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I really pity the ATO, imagine the acting OIC at the ATO - Dimagiba (because Jatico is suspended for non liquidiation of cash advances) even said in an interview with the media (I think in Imbestigador, not quite sure) that should the FAA downgrades the Republic of the Philippines to Cat 2, PAL will just be the one affected! So that means to say they dont mind it! Wait till the French DGAC, IAA, or even ICAO learn that the Philippines is downgraded AGAIN by the FAA to Cat 2, they too will take immediate action on the Philippines with regards to the ability of the ATO in ensuring safety oversight of Philippine air carriers. Expect travel advisories issued by ICAO member states spreading all over the internet concerning the safety of civil aviation in RP.
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Airlinefan, you're too optimistic my friend. 
ATO to improve with the creation of PCAA ? hmmmm...... it's like asking Count Dracula to change into an angel. Fat chance. They can't even get the licensing system fixed from sucking blood from license holders.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing I would want more than to get ATO up to standards but......
I agree with Kapalmuks and win faa.
ATO is on FAA's crosshairs for a good reason.
ATO to improve with the creation of PCAA ? hmmmm...... it's like asking Count Dracula to change into an angel. Fat chance. They can't even get the licensing system fixed from sucking blood from license holders.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing I would want more than to get ATO up to standards but......
I agree with Kapalmuks and win faa.
ATO is on FAA's crosshairs for a good reason.
Last edited by Eight Ball; 12th Dec 2007 at 07:09.
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Hi 8ball,
When Manila ATC tells you to "remain VFR" or "maintain VFR", what he really means is to "stay in VMC". It is just a reminder which he usually issues during times when weather conditions are clearly visual but the visibility from their vantage point is at or below the required minimum (usually due to haze or smog). This is also because they merely 'eyeball' the visibility due to lack of transmissometers at RPLL. Consider yourself lucky to have been cleared to runway 13.
They used to allow 'Special VFR' into 06/24 but this privilege has since been revoked. Don't ask me why.
When Manila ATC tells you to "remain VFR" or "maintain VFR", what he really means is to "stay in VMC". It is just a reminder which he usually issues during times when weather conditions are clearly visual but the visibility from their vantage point is at or below the required minimum (usually due to haze or smog). This is also because they merely 'eyeball' the visibility due to lack of transmissometers at RPLL. Consider yourself lucky to have been cleared to runway 13.
They used to allow 'Special VFR' into 06/24 but this privilege has since been revoked. Don't ask me why.
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St. Ex
Why should I consider myself lucky to be cleared for Rwy 13 ? That is the runway to be used for VFR isn't it ?
I wasn't asking for any special favours to use 06/24.
Why should I consider myself lucky to be cleared for Rwy 13 ? That is the runway to be used for VFR isn't it ?
I wasn't asking for any special favours to use 06/24.
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Eightball,
Sorry about that, what I meant to say was that you were lucky to have been given VFR clearance on an iffy low visibility VMC day. Obviously, the only way you could be cleared to land on 13/31 would be under VFR.
On many occasions, aircraft are not cleared to land even when the PIC clearly states that the runway is in sight, on a bright, cloudless summer day if ATC declares visibility (from their vantage point) is below minimums, even if it is only due to haze/ smog. This is the reason operators request special VFR. Under Special VFR, asuming ATC grants you the clearance, you may continue under VFR(technically) but with vectors from ATC which usually takes you to the final approach for the landing runway. Unfortunately, this is a privilege which ATC no longer grants. You end up being told to proceed to your alternate.
Of course another alternative would be to request IFR clearance but that would mean that ATC would have to sequence you along with all the other IFR traffic operating out of or into 06/24 and that would cause undue albeit unwanted delay.
Sorry about that, what I meant to say was that you were lucky to have been given VFR clearance on an iffy low visibility VMC day. Obviously, the only way you could be cleared to land on 13/31 would be under VFR.
On many occasions, aircraft are not cleared to land even when the PIC clearly states that the runway is in sight, on a bright, cloudless summer day if ATC declares visibility (from their vantage point) is below minimums, even if it is only due to haze/ smog. This is the reason operators request special VFR. Under Special VFR, asuming ATC grants you the clearance, you may continue under VFR(technically) but with vectors from ATC which usually takes you to the final approach for the landing runway. Unfortunately, this is a privilege which ATC no longer grants. You end up being told to proceed to your alternate.
Of course another alternative would be to request IFR clearance but that would mean that ATC would have to sequence you along with all the other IFR traffic operating out of or into 06/24 and that would cause undue albeit unwanted delay.
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what I meant to say was that you were lucky to have been given VFR clearance on an iffy low visibility VMC day.
aircraft are not cleared to land even when the PIC clearly states that the runway is in sight, on a bright, cloudless summer day if ATC declares visibility (from their vantage point) is below minimums,
You end up being told to proceed to your alternate.
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Runway 13
EightBall
Manila is still one of the few Primary Airports where a C-152 can fly in and land. I suspect this situation will not last much longer ..
I am sure you are aware of the RWY 13 Breakwater approach. I have often used it. It is a breakwater just off South Harbour that almost lines up with RWY 13. Using this as a guide, you can track visually to 13 when you cannot even see the Runway when the coastline. Go figure??? This is VFR according to teh tower on many occasions. It has been a while, but I guess they still allow it from the North on 13.
Your situation just describes the worserning situation with ATC, as I have watched it degrade over the last 10 years. There is no consistancy with the ATC procedures relating to VFR. Check Rides from Manila have been stopped. VFR arrivals are now limited to certain times of the day I was just informed (un-verified as yet)
Why, one could be acused of thinking they do not want ANY VFR in Manila, tsk, tsk, what a thought???
Is it undermanning that it is the problem? It cannot be too much traffic as there is only 300 or so aircraft flying now, not many actually based in manila. There used to be over 2000 flying in the philippines including more than 40 Kingairs. I believe there is only 4 or 6 flying now. How did they handle it then without all the modern equipment they have now. It seem way too hard for them now, doesn't it??
The bottom line is that general Aviation is slowly going away, along with the airports as well. In ten years there may be no where or no aircraft to fly unless you are in an airliner.
How many Aztecs are there here? How many of the work horse aircraft that you see in the states. Answer = almost none.
The Philippine AViation Community needs to wake up and see the writing on the wall. ATO, PAL, CebuPack and whoever do not want any little guys flying around. They just see us as a pain in the ass that should go away.
Look at AOPA in the USA, they fight against EVERY airport closure, what does the phlippine aviation community do??
If you want to fly here, airline or nothing in ten years
ArrowMark
Manila is still one of the few Primary Airports where a C-152 can fly in and land. I suspect this situation will not last much longer ..
I am sure you are aware of the RWY 13 Breakwater approach. I have often used it. It is a breakwater just off South Harbour that almost lines up with RWY 13. Using this as a guide, you can track visually to 13 when you cannot even see the Runway when the coastline. Go figure??? This is VFR according to teh tower on many occasions. It has been a while, but I guess they still allow it from the North on 13.
Your situation just describes the worserning situation with ATC, as I have watched it degrade over the last 10 years. There is no consistancy with the ATC procedures relating to VFR. Check Rides from Manila have been stopped. VFR arrivals are now limited to certain times of the day I was just informed (un-verified as yet)
Why, one could be acused of thinking they do not want ANY VFR in Manila, tsk, tsk, what a thought???
Is it undermanning that it is the problem? It cannot be too much traffic as there is only 300 or so aircraft flying now, not many actually based in manila. There used to be over 2000 flying in the philippines including more than 40 Kingairs. I believe there is only 4 or 6 flying now. How did they handle it then without all the modern equipment they have now. It seem way too hard for them now, doesn't it??
The bottom line is that general Aviation is slowly going away, along with the airports as well. In ten years there may be no where or no aircraft to fly unless you are in an airliner.
How many Aztecs are there here? How many of the work horse aircraft that you see in the states. Answer = almost none.
The Philippine AViation Community needs to wake up and see the writing on the wall. ATO, PAL, CebuPack and whoever do not want any little guys flying around. They just see us as a pain in the ass that should go away.
Look at AOPA in the USA, they fight against EVERY airport closure, what does the phlippine aviation community do??
If you want to fly here, airline or nothing in ten years
ArrowMark
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Hi ArrowMark
I agree, and if their VFR inconsistencies continue, soon we will have near misses with airliners and the more they will have reasons to ban lighties in MNL. They'll just blame it on the little guys.
Is this what you mean - Reference AIP Section 2.3 Sub-Section 2.3.1 b
"Rwy 13 Landing: Request to make STRIGHT-IN-APPROACH before South Harbour. When request is approved descend to 600ft towards Philippine Navy. Continue descent so as to maintain 300ft over Baclaran Redemptorist church and the 50 ft. clearance above the runway threshold. If request is disapproved, turn right at or before South Harbour, avoiding other aircraft in the traffic circuit thence enter downwind leg Runway 13; or any other maneuver as instructed by the Aerodrome Controller"
You wouldn't want to know what I think of this - believe me.
I guess they still do after asking several orbits from you 
.... it reminds me of an American joke, will tell you about it some other time.
Gives me the goosebumps... thank you, I thought I was the only one who has noticed it
Is this the VFR flights allowed only from sunrise to sunset ?
This is one of the things I wonder - looks like they don't have Night VFR ?
So, I guess the students don't have a lot of experience in night circuits.
Probably the possibility of having a mid-air scare in a controlled airspace due to their inconsistencies. Someone mentioned to me once that they have noticed that ATC is not there to help you but to play bully. Now that's a scary thought.
One answer - funds are probably not allocated properly but siphoned by someone. When was the last time they had a radar upgrade and change in the National Airspace System. --- let me guess, 100 years ago ?
Yep, sold to SM (Shoe Mart) directors, Jollibee and McDonalds 
No wonder Plaridel airstrip is getting congested 
. Even Clark ( CDC ) wants the little guys out. Some schools in the Clark area have been doing their flying training in Lingayen.
Nothing I suppose. We don't have a union to stand up against this and ATO.
Manila is still one of the few Primary Airports where a C-152 can fly in and land. I suspect this situation will not last much longer
I am sure you are aware of the RWY 13 Breakwater approach. I have often used it. It is a breakwater just off South Harbour that almost lines up with RWY 13. Using this as a guide, you can track visually to 13 when you cannot even see the Runway when the coastline. Go figure??? This is VFR according to teh tower on many occasions.
"Rwy 13 Landing: Request to make STRIGHT-IN-APPROACH before South Harbour. When request is approved descend to 600ft towards Philippine Navy. Continue descent so as to maintain 300ft over Baclaran Redemptorist church and the 50 ft. clearance above the runway threshold. If request is disapproved, turn right at or before South Harbour, avoiding other aircraft in the traffic circuit thence enter downwind leg Runway 13; or any other maneuver as instructed by the Aerodrome Controller"
You wouldn't want to know what I think of this - believe me.
It has been a while, but I guess they still allow it from the North on 13.
.... it reminds me of an American joke, will tell you about it some other time.
Your situation just describes the worserning situation with ATC, as I have watched it degrade over the last 10 years. There is no consistancy with the ATC procedures relating to VFR.
Check Rides from Manila have been stopped. VFR arrivals are now limited to certain times of the day I was just informed (un-verified as yet)
This is one of the things I wonder - looks like they don't have Night VFR ?
So, I guess the students don't have a lot of experience in night circuits.
Why, one could be acused of thinking they do not want ANY VFR in Manila, tsk, tsk, what a thought???
Is it undermanning that it is the problem? It cannot be too much traffic as there is only 300 or so aircraft flying now, not many actually based in manila. There used to be over 2000 flying in the philippines including more than 40 Kingairs. I believe there is only 4 or 6 flying now. How did they handle it then without all the modern equipment they have now. It seem way too hard for them now, doesn't it??
The bottom line is that general Aviation is slowly going away, along with the airports as well. In ten years there may be no where or no aircraft to fly unless you are in an airliner.
How many Aztecs are there here? How many of the work horse aircraft that you see in the states. Answer = almost none.
The Philippine AViation Community needs to wake up and see the writing on the wall. ATO, PAL, CebuPack and whoever do not want any little guys flying around. They just see us as a pain in the ass that should go away.
The Philippine AViation Community needs to wake up and see the writing on the wall. ATO, PAL, CebuPack and whoever do not want any little guys flying around. They just see us as a pain in the ass that should go away.
. Even Clark ( CDC ) wants the little guys out. Some schools in the Clark area have been doing their flying training in Lingayen.
Look at AOPA in the USA, they fight against EVERY airport closure, what does the phlippine aviation community do??
Last edited by Eight Ball; 23rd Dec 2007 at 01:21.
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excellent post for filam
eight ball, excellent post. i too was shocked with the standards of ATO. it is basically a cash cow for the corrupt examiners who basically traded high standards for "SOP" or in other words the almight peso "2,000 php" to be exact. i was told in the inside these examiners during jatico's reign were making as much as 400,000 php and up every month. i was even offered to work there by a congressman but, turned it down with disgust. it's a shame for our mother land.
sad to say, i've done some major ass kissing and the taste is bitter sweet. it's bitter because of all the politics of calling every examiner captain and trying to treat them like they are god and is sweet because i finally got my CPL and IR converted after a one year wait. Heck, I even placed a post on how to get hired in an airline here in the philippines and no one, i mean no even one pilot offered info. to help out. i thought the crab mentility applied to some but, sad to say it is factual.
i'm presently trying to land a job here. already submitted the resumes and i'm waiting for an answer. i do miss the states because i have jobs waiting there but, my family is living in the province and my wife prefers i be close by. i can 't blame them. when you get married, it's called compromise.
anyway fellow filam, i hope you can land a job here soon. just remember, when you reach captain, don't be like them. let's change the culture of the airlines here.
take it easy pal and God bless,
filam
sad to say, i've done some major ass kissing and the taste is bitter sweet. it's bitter because of all the politics of calling every examiner captain and trying to treat them like they are god and is sweet because i finally got my CPL and IR converted after a one year wait. Heck, I even placed a post on how to get hired in an airline here in the philippines and no one, i mean no even one pilot offered info. to help out. i thought the crab mentility applied to some but, sad to say it is factual.
i'm presently trying to land a job here. already submitted the resumes and i'm waiting for an answer. i do miss the states because i have jobs waiting there but, my family is living in the province and my wife prefers i be close by. i can 't blame them. when you get married, it's called compromise.
anyway fellow filam, i hope you can land a job here soon. just remember, when you reach captain, don't be like them. let's change the culture of the airlines here.
take it easy pal and God bless,
filam
