Korean Air Expat Contract
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"Changing a decision in Korea is not viewed as an adjustment to meet practical reality but rather an admission of error with an accompanying loss of face" ELAC, that is something that they don't have here in India you may be use to it, "I call you back in two minutes" or "give me a second" or "it's coming" they use to say something in the morning and change it within 2 hours without shame they still able to see your face after lying, in Air Sahara/Jet Lite they even have no roster, it is done by call you mobile at any time
BANANABANANAS, I think you are in SINGAPORE people there are nothing to compare with people in INDIA, try to get a job here then go to South Korea, than you can tell the diferences
BANANABANANAS, I think you are in SINGAPORE people there are nothing to compare with people in INDIA, try to get a job here then go to South Korea, than you can tell the diferences
Last edited by speedtwoten; 19th Aug 2007 at 13:41. Reason: additional comment
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speedtwoten ...
I'll leave it to you to discover which of those two charcteristics you find you like less. Perhaps you'll just have to experience the other to figure it out for yourself.
But perhaps I don't entirely understand your problem in India. Does it really matter that much if they change whatever flights you fly on a given day? What matters to me is whether the airplane is safe, the money is on time and the leave days add up to what I'm entitled to. Most of the rest, particularly what flights I do on what day when I'm away from home don't really matter that much at all, at least not to me.
Anyway, if rosters that don't change are your priority, you will enjoy Korea. Just remember that when you spend your 21st day looking at a Korean "snack pack", have the infamous "red dot" on your forehead and are looking at a 10% outside of contract "haircut" to help fund your Korean colleagues' new sets of outstation golf clubs, all conveniently located at stations that you on the NG will never see.
Have fun,
ELAC
I'll leave it to you to discover which of those two charcteristics you find you like less. Perhaps you'll just have to experience the other to figure it out for yourself.
But perhaps I don't entirely understand your problem in India. Does it really matter that much if they change whatever flights you fly on a given day? What matters to me is whether the airplane is safe, the money is on time and the leave days add up to what I'm entitled to. Most of the rest, particularly what flights I do on what day when I'm away from home don't really matter that much at all, at least not to me.
Anyway, if rosters that don't change are your priority, you will enjoy Korea. Just remember that when you spend your 21st day looking at a Korean "snack pack", have the infamous "red dot" on your forehead and are looking at a 10% outside of contract "haircut" to help fund your Korean colleagues' new sets of outstation golf clubs, all conveniently located at stations that you on the NG will never see.
Have fun,
ELAC
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They treat expats so terribly in India and Asia don't they? Here is an Idea, go back to your country and get paid well and treated better at airlines that don't change their schedules and don't lie to you
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They treat expats so terribly in India and Asia don't they? Here is an Idea, go back to your country and get paid well and treated better at airlines that don't change their schedules and don't lie to you
As for pay ... well to be honest there's nobody where your from, or where I'm from, prepared to pay close to the same net $$ that my background commands on the expat market without a wait of 30 years or so. But, if you do know of a carrier that gives that sort of a pay bump for walking in the door with 10,000 odd in PIC time on transport jets please tell me, I'm all ears.
To be honest, I'm quite content with where I'm at and who I'm working for, though I do thank you for your kind hearted and warmly intended career advice.
Regards,
ELAC
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Exactly, thanks for making my point since it seemed that you are just too smart for your own good and totally missed the sarcasm, sunshine.
They do make you cut your hair hum?, those bastards
They do make you cut your hair hum?, those bastards
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totally missed the sarcasm
The fellow is not happy in India and wants to go to Korea. As someone who has spent time in both places I can at least offer an opinion, subjective as it may be, about the merits of either place, which may be of use to the guy.
Just curious, what can you offer him aside from a sampling of your finely honed wit?
ELAC
Last edited by ELAC; 19th Aug 2007 at 20:11.
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ELAC, if you are in India, please read Times Of India news paper of today and August 9, than you'll see what happen actually with Air Sahara/Jet Lite
, if you are talking about safe airplane to fly, they who were flying for that company only saved by GOD like I ever before
, thanks GOD I left that place. and those in DGCA doesn't bother at all even for their toilet in their building are treated the same like they treated the aviation in India
, if you are talking about safe airplane to fly, they who were flying for that company only saved by GOD like I ever before, thanks GOD I left that place. and those in DGCA doesn't bother at all even for their toilet in their building are treated the same like they treated the aviation in India
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ELAC, as someone considering this contract can you be specific about whether or not the contractual terms are respected?
Your post insinuates much but its not clear to me exactly what you mean regarding the 10% haircut and the 21st day.
Your post insinuates much but its not clear to me exactly what you mean regarding the 10% haircut and the 21st day.
I'm not really much for getting into a long story of all the ways that Korean Air arbitrarily changed contract terms, but it did happen, and with some regularity. In my time I experienced things such as an involuntary one year 10% pay cut (the aformentioned haircut), the institution of a policy that revoked vacation days earned in any month where one reported sick for even 1 day, a reclassification of travel benefit ticket classifications making the tickets very difficult to obtain and attempts to change the duty travel seat accommodations. Those four are the first that come to mind, but there were others too.
The 21st day simply refers to the fact that your standard work rotation will be about 3 weeks, and in the case of the B737 that will be 3 weeks of mostly domestic or China flying and hence a lot of "snack packs" to enjoy.
My advice with respect to Korean Air is simply that it is a very challenging employment environment in a great number of ways and that someone looking in that direction expecting an improvement versus how they are treated as an expat in, for example, India is likely to be in for a rude shock. If you are adaptable you can adjust to most of what goes on at KE, but it is unlikely you will ever find it very enjoyable as opposed to simply the necessary means to other ends.
ELAC
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Not to take advise from a whiner
So long Tinkerbell
So long Tinkerbell
I guess ad hominem shots are about all that you've got to offer as an ex-US regional guy who is less than 6 months into his first overseas contract flying the heavy metal in Japan. When you've spent a few years doing expat work, particularly in Korea, maybe you'll have something of value to contribute, but right now, judging from your other posts, you know diddley about the life of an expat captain. In fact, you haven't even made it out to the line yet, now have you?
Best of luck, Peter Pan!
PS - I suggest you start studying Japanese criminal law as it applies to aircraft operations. You are not in Kansas any more Toto. Just ask the Garuda DC-10 Captain or the JAL MD11 Captain how they much they enjoyed the experience of having an EF at V1 or a turbulence/autopilot incident while in Japan.
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Wow. Did the arbitrary changes stick or was the contract successfully defended? How does a 10% haircut get summarily applied when you have a contract?
Contract? Defended??? There is no such thing in much of the expat world. A contract is just a legal fiction to make you happy. For the most part the terms are only enforceable to the degree that the company is willing to comply with what they've agreed to. Just for your interest (and for that of certain others who might think I dream this stuff up) I've copied portions of an email I recieved from my contracting company regarding the leave days issue that neatly sums things up. Have a laugh while you read it.
Our 10% pay cut stuck for 10 months, even as the company posted profits during those quarters. Our Korean colleagues were asked to take a similar cut but refused. They, of course, have a union and the right to strike once a year, every year. At the end of the year in question the company spent approx. $500,000 to buy 100 sets of new golf clubs, primarily for use by our colleagues who did not have to take a forced cut in pay.
I'll leave it to you to imagine how well this went down with those of us who were out of pocket. I'll also leave it to you to decide who you want to consider trusting ... the airline? the contracting company?
Good luck with your career decisions,
ELAC
Dear Captain XXXX,
Last month, KAL asked YYYYYY to sign an Amendment to the Agreement between the two companies which is, in turn, the basis for the contract between YYYYYY and its contracted pilots.
The amendment covered a couple of issues; Annual Leave and the Annual Cost of Living review.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. Regarding Annual Leave KAL has proposed the following:
"1) Each captain shall be entitled to annual leave only after successfully finishing KAL’s initial route-training.
2) Each captain’s annual leave shall accrue at two (2) days per month for every month of Full service. However, no month with sick leave or duty violation shall accrue any annual leave.
3) Any captain shall not take his annual leave more than seven (7) days in any one month."
We have now given two detailed responses to this proposal explaining the obvious objections and the potential problems such a change would cause. Korean Air is arguing that the amendment is not a change but the clarification of some ambiguity that existed in the original contract.
We have not signed the Amendment, but in their latest letter they have suggested this is their final position and they will implement the changes whether we sign or not. However, we have written again to KAL asking them to reconsider.
...
Annual Review Ammendment
...
Unfortunately the amendments for Annual Leave and Annual Review are combined. We have asked KAL to split the Amendment into two separate amendments so that we could send the change on annual review to you separately, to see if it would be acceptable. We have not yet received a reply from KAL as to whether they are prepared to do this.
As stated before, we have not signed this Amendment (although KAL have indicated that other agencies have) but KAL has now indicated that they will implement these policies regardless and have advised that,
“As our top management stands firm on the implementation, we have no other avenue but to apply this to all the captains based on the original contract, but we'd like to do it with your agreement, if possible.”
Since receiving that statement we have again written to KAL explaining in more detail why we believe their new position on these issues is wrong. However, based on their most recent correspondence, we are now concerned that we will be unable to change their decision.
We will inform you of any new developments on these issues.
Best regards,
YYYYYY
Last month, KAL asked YYYYYY to sign an Amendment to the Agreement between the two companies which is, in turn, the basis for the contract between YYYYYY and its contracted pilots.
The amendment covered a couple of issues; Annual Leave and the Annual Cost of Living review.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. Regarding Annual Leave KAL has proposed the following:
"1) Each captain shall be entitled to annual leave only after successfully finishing KAL’s initial route-training.
2) Each captain’s annual leave shall accrue at two (2) days per month for every month of Full service. However, no month with sick leave or duty violation shall accrue any annual leave.
3) Any captain shall not take his annual leave more than seven (7) days in any one month."
We have now given two detailed responses to this proposal explaining the obvious objections and the potential problems such a change would cause. Korean Air is arguing that the amendment is not a change but the clarification of some ambiguity that existed in the original contract.
We have not signed the Amendment, but in their latest letter they have suggested this is their final position and they will implement the changes whether we sign or not. However, we have written again to KAL asking them to reconsider.
...
Annual Review Ammendment
...
Unfortunately the amendments for Annual Leave and Annual Review are combined. We have asked KAL to split the Amendment into two separate amendments so that we could send the change on annual review to you separately, to see if it would be acceptable. We have not yet received a reply from KAL as to whether they are prepared to do this.
As stated before, we have not signed this Amendment (although KAL have indicated that other agencies have) but KAL has now indicated that they will implement these policies regardless and have advised that,
“As our top management stands firm on the implementation, we have no other avenue but to apply this to all the captains based on the original contract, but we'd like to do it with your agreement, if possible.”
Since receiving that statement we have again written to KAL explaining in more detail why we believe their new position on these issues is wrong. However, based on their most recent correspondence, we are now concerned that we will be unable to change their decision.
We will inform you of any new developments on these issues.
Best regards,
YYYYYY
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ELAC
Just a thought.. If KAL is firm on their "ammendment" to your present contract- the one you originally signed with them via whomever your contracting company is. Does that not declare your contract with KAL
null and void?
I would think that should free you up to tell them to piss off and go else where. Just curious.
RDG
Just a thought.. If KAL is firm on their "ammendment" to your present contract- the one you originally signed with them via whomever your contracting company is. Does that not declare your contract with KAL
null and void?
I would think that should free you up to tell them to piss off and go else where. Just curious.
RDG
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RDG ...
It's sort of an interesting question in that Korean Air asserts that it has the unilateral right to modify a contract between yourself and the contracting company which it is not even a direct party to. The contracting company simply states that they are obliged to change terms in accordance with their master contract with Korean. Of course they don't have that right within the contract they signed with you, but unless you are prepared to go to Vanuatu or wherever to try and get the thing enforced that really doesn't mean anything anyway.
This particular email dates from 2003 when I was still working for Korean Air. You may recall that the job market then was not quite as it is now and telling them to go piss up a rope (no matter how well deserved) was not not an immediately actionable response. I'm now much more happily employed elsewhere. I've attached the email simply as a concrete example of what the value of a Korean contract is for those considering the position.
ELAC
It's sort of an interesting question in that Korean Air asserts that it has the unilateral right to modify a contract between yourself and the contracting company which it is not even a direct party to. The contracting company simply states that they are obliged to change terms in accordance with their master contract with Korean. Of course they don't have that right within the contract they signed with you, but unless you are prepared to go to Vanuatu or wherever to try and get the thing enforced that really doesn't mean anything anyway.
This particular email dates from 2003 when I was still working for Korean Air. You may recall that the job market then was not quite as it is now and telling them to go piss up a rope (no matter how well deserved) was not not an immediately actionable response. I'm now much more happily employed elsewhere. I've attached the email simply as a concrete example of what the value of a Korean contract is for those considering the position.
ELAC
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ELAC
I see, thank you. I was pondering joining KAL the 330 DEC contract but am still not sure.
I would like to hear from anyone currently on any KAL DEC contract with a US base.
Please can anyone tell me if they (KAL) have been keeping their end of the bargain- are you getting any time at home in the U.S. -pay and commuting details are as advertised, etc.
Any truthful info is appreciated
RDG
I see, thank you. I was pondering joining KAL the 330 DEC contract but am still not sure.
I would like to hear from anyone currently on any KAL DEC contract with a US base.
Please can anyone tell me if they (KAL) have been keeping their end of the bargain- are you getting any time at home in the U.S. -pay and commuting details are as advertised, etc.
Any truthful info is appreciated
RDG
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RDG ...
I speak with Korean Air pilots on pretty much a daily basis. For the most part KAL are keeping their word at the moment, but as per the above that can change at any time. I say most part in that though the contract allows for 9 days off and 2 vacation days per month crew shortages have forced the company to cut monthly days off allowed to 6 (which is technically allowable, but until recently had never been done) mostly on the B777.
Salary and commuting details will be as advertised, but watch out for the things like what exact ticket code those four confirmed FOC tickets per year are. Where I lived only 4 seats or so per flight from my station were allowed on that code and those seats were open to all employees, so if I wanted to use my FOC tickets I had to book them 9 months in advance.
Also, I wouldn't expect too much action on an A330 application just yet. They have been advertising for a year, but they have yet to hire a single new expat on the A330, and to my knowledge have not yet interviewed one either. That may change soon, as there are a number of A330 guys itching to get out, but if they do, doesn't that tell you something too? It might be better to figure out where they are headed instead of filling the hole where they have have been.
ELAC
I speak with Korean Air pilots on pretty much a daily basis. For the most part KAL are keeping their word at the moment, but as per the above that can change at any time. I say most part in that though the contract allows for 9 days off and 2 vacation days per month crew shortages have forced the company to cut monthly days off allowed to 6 (which is technically allowable, but until recently had never been done) mostly on the B777.
Salary and commuting details will be as advertised, but watch out for the things like what exact ticket code those four confirmed FOC tickets per year are. Where I lived only 4 seats or so per flight from my station were allowed on that code and those seats were open to all employees, so if I wanted to use my FOC tickets I had to book them 9 months in advance.
Also, I wouldn't expect too much action on an A330 application just yet. They have been advertising for a year, but they have yet to hire a single new expat on the A330, and to my knowledge have not yet interviewed one either. That may change soon, as there are a number of A330 guys itching to get out, but if they do, doesn't that tell you something too? It might be better to figure out where they are headed instead of filling the hole where they have have been.
ELAC
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Indeed it does tell me something and I thank you for the info.
I was hoping for the 777 contract but the 330 was the one the head hunters from OZ were selling. Might be a while before Ihear anything if at all.
Thanks again ELAC.
RDG
I was hoping for the 777 contract but the 330 was the one the head hunters from OZ were selling. Might be a while before Ihear anything if at all.
Thanks again ELAC.
RDG
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RDG
What type are you currently flying?
ELAC
PS - Avoid the Antipodean outfit like the plague ... if you deal with anybody it should be John Hitch at CCL. He has a track record of being straight in a very crooked business.
What type are you currently flying?
ELAC
PS - Avoid the Antipodean outfit like the plague ... if you deal with anybody it should be John Hitch at CCL. He has a track record of being straight in a very crooked business.
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ELAC
Great posts from someone who has been there, got the T shirt!
From my limited exposure via training in Korea there are other places I would look at first for a number of reasons - just my personal perspective.
Regarding contractors there are at least 3 from the downunder region (Euro, IAC, Rishworth) who are touting along with at least another 4 around the world.
Does your comment relate solely to the organisation who use the laws of a remote island in the S. Pacific??
Cheers
Great posts from someone who has been there, got the T shirt!
From my limited exposure via training in Korea there are other places I would look at first for a number of reasons - just my personal perspective.
Regarding contractors there are at least 3 from the downunder region (Euro, IAC, Rishworth) who are touting along with at least another 4 around the world.
Does your comment relate solely to the organisation who use the laws of a remote island in the S. Pacific??
Cheers
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Yes indeed ELAC, thanks again for the posts.
It's great to get facts and knowledge of experience when one is trying to make a big decision.
Check your PM's when you get a chance.
RDG
It's great to get facts and knowledge of experience when one is trying to make a big decision.
Check your PM's when you get a chance.
RDG
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galdian ...
I dealt with one of the three and they left a particularly bad taste in my mouth. Friends dealt with the other two with similar results. There is plenty of info on PPRuNE regarding contract violations and legal actions with regard to one of these outfits in particular, but the level of integrity is pretty much the same from any of them. The only contracting company that I know to be considered upright is CCL, though there are some newer players that may be ok too.
Doug ...
Re the haircut, nobody left immediately because there was no place to go at the time. Since then, well let's just say that KAL's decision to hire non-type rated pilots is not exactly a coincidence. As for hoping that the contracts get more respect now, not a chance. There will likely be a continuous little chipping away to whatever terms you think you have along with the occasional big bite (a la the haircut) when it is deemed necessary. When it comes to Korean Air and contracts the only valid approach is the cynical one.
ELAC
I dealt with one of the three and they left a particularly bad taste in my mouth. Friends dealt with the other two with similar results. There is plenty of info on PPRuNE regarding contract violations and legal actions with regard to one of these outfits in particular, but the level of integrity is pretty much the same from any of them. The only contracting company that I know to be considered upright is CCL, though there are some newer players that may be ok too.
Doug ...
Re the haircut, nobody left immediately because there was no place to go at the time. Since then, well let's just say that KAL's decision to hire non-type rated pilots is not exactly a coincidence. As for hoping that the contracts get more respect now, not a chance. There will likely be a continuous little chipping away to whatever terms you think you have along with the occasional big bite (a la the haircut) when it is deemed necessary. When it comes to Korean Air and contracts the only valid approach is the cynical one.
ELAC