SIA Changes the Contract - Again!

[Chambudzi]

"Chambudzi and et al. Please remember this is about perspectives. I can guarantee you my previous employer makes SIA look great."

It certainly is about perspectives Phill especially when you joined SIA around 10 years ago and you have systematically been robbed since then with a contract in tatters.

" Correct no pay for positioning. However, that will most likely get resolved in the near term."

You are far too optimistic Phill. You could be right that it will be resolved but dont hold your breath sunshine. Only market forces and the desperate need to replace departing pilots will help you there.

"Seems as though the company can't attract the necessary Cargo pilots nor can it attract the necessary 777 pilots."

Seems we are on the same side of the arguement here so ask yourself why they cant recruit the required pilots.

"Again, perhaps, if you are so unhappy, you should just tender your resignations and go to work for my prior employer. I'd be happy to give you all the contact details...."

Dont be silly Phill. As we agreed, this is about perspective and whereas I support your right to try and improve your lot by getting the same as mainline we also have the right to fight to maintain our contracts and to vigorously oppose the daylight thievery that has gone on in the last couple of years.

SIA badly need more pilots right now just to replace the leavers and to cover the normal annual expansion. If the rights to fly the SYD/MEL to LAX come off they will need many more. They are running low on ideas how to maintain the low salary and ravaged contract. One way is to raise the retirement age which is the present hot potato but after that something will have to give so long as we dont have another SARS or Asama.

[Rockhound]

I knew I should have kept my trap shut.

Hicirrus

Actually, my post wasn't meant to be a wind-up. I genuinely believe that an SQ pilot may feel more secure than many a highly-paid US pilot flying for a company that is struggling to stay out of bankruptcy court.
I'm a scientist and not familiar with MBA-type and human resources jargon but I understand your point about satisfiers/motivators and dissatisfiers. During my career, I was blessed with much job satisfaction arising from my workwith a government scientific organization, which provided me with good support and the research tools I needed but not an overly generous salary (although pension benefits are good). The organization I worked for was world-renowned in its field and its scientific staff enjoyed a certain esprit de corps.
I know full well that a pilot's life in SIA is far from a bed of roses. Pay, for example, is considerably below the average for a major airline and you know that I have even managed to express my views on that topic in the more progressive SIN print media, as well as in this forum.
Still, I'm hoping that there is still an element of
esprit de corps among you SQ pilots (I'm sure there was much more of it in the past) and a certain pride in flying for an airline of high repute.

Millerscrt

I can't help but feel it's an exaggeration to ascribe SIA's profits and ability to maintain a modern fleet to the savings incurred by paying low wages.

Well, I think I've said (more than) enough about a subject of which I really don't know a hell of a lot - but which interests me strangely.

Rockhound

[jstars2]

Hey Rockhound, you are joking aren’t you, when you write “Still, I'm hoping that there is still an element of esprit de corps among you SQ pilots (I'm sure there was much more of it in the past) and a certain pride in flying for an airline of high repute”?

I actually don’t know of any SQ ex-pat pilots who don’t share a common derision of the airline and a slight sense of shame that we’ve all been stupid enough to get ourselves sucked into and committed to what on the outside looks like a super efficient, professional outfit but which insiders occasionally liken to a glorified whelk stall.

We don’t actually do esprit de corps in SQ. We just grit our teeth, loath the b*st**ds who set policy and pay rates and look forward to the day we can leave.

Meanwhile, despite the suggestions of the dreamers and outside commentators, we cannot just up-sticks and leave – we are committed to bonds, bank-guarantees, rental contracts, car hire purchase, money owed by SQ (which you can kiss goodbye to if you leave before time) and childrens’ education – you know, the kind of things that middle-class, mature professionals take seriously and which vulnerability is exploited in spades by all from Minister Mentor downwards, who get away with it because this particular 1963 Monopoly game called the Republic of Singapore had all the Chance, Community Chest and Property Deeds dealt to Lee Kuan Yew from day one and all continue to be held by him to this day!

[speedtwoten]

if anybody can tell about career in SinCargo or SIA, how long one can move from right to left specially in SinCargo, how about direct entry F/O rated on B744 with more 3000 hrs on type, or do they follow seniority system

[highcirrus]

The tortuously “negotiated” (ie imposed) 2005 Collective Agreement, just published, indicates a new salary range that includes a revised top salary for B747-400 captains, of S$16,500.

To date, I have not heard any cries of outrage from the august and sizeable group in receipt of salaries in this part of the range and which I seem to remember, peaked somewhere in the region of S$22,000.

Does this mean that this band of pilots, many of whose members are in the Alpa-S Ex Co negotiating team, have taken an instant and sizeable pay cut or has another accommodation been found?

[Fly3]

A new accommodation was found I believe. The difference between their present salary and the new (lower) top scale will be paid as a seperate "allowance" so they will not be out of pocket.

[jstars2]

So the Alpa-S Ex-Co has been quite happy to take this separate "allowance" so as not to sustain any pay cut for themselves, in return for quietly “selling their members down the river”, by accepting the crock of sh*t that the new CA represents and the pay-cuts it contains?

This also must have been why they raised not a finger on behalf of the ex-pat pilots (who cannot be Ex-Co members) who’ve just seen a degradation of both housing and school allowance and have also lost the pilot provident fund.

Nauseated? Absolutely. Surprised? Give me a break! What little people.

[Gypsy]

There is always a lot of negative stuff about SIA but so as we can judge for ourselves can someone please say in simple terms what the deal is. So for an SIA B777 Capt what is: -

1, Basic per mth
2, Housing per mth (can you use it to buy or only rent)
3, Schooling per mth
4, Flt Duty pay
5, Per Diem
6, Any other mthly income and any annual/end of contract bonus

Do you get your leave and how many days off in SIN per mth do you have.

Thks in anticipation

[Anotherpost75]

I find it quite astounding that there has been so little response from SQ pilots to the information contained in the 20 March post of Fly3 that “the difference between their present salary and the new (lower) top scale will be paid as a separate "allowance" so they will not be out of pocket”.

Do they not believe the allegation or don’t they care? Quite extraordinary passiveness that I’ve certainly never encountered in airlines I’ve ever worked for.

[Old Smokey]

This will be a simple post in the midst of numerous posts made by others who are highly politically aware. My strengths are in the technical field, and that's where I've concentrated my effort, accepting the rewards of the politically alert and active. To those who have worked so hard on my behalf, not without casualty, I offer my sincere thanks.

I was always a "Company" man, both in SIA and my previous employer, my company could do no wrong. I believed in a fair system of give and take, I went the extra mile for them when necessary, and they in turn were most helpful in going their extra mile for me if I encountered a problem. That always worked out - In the past! Now, belatedly, I realise that a fair system of give and take belongs with honourable people, and SIA is no longer an honourable organisation.

I do not speak disparigingly here of our Fleet management. In my own fleet (B777) from the Chief Pilot down to the most humble Supervisory Captain, we could not wish for a more decent and honourable group of people in ANY organisation. It is an extremely pleasant experience in working in such a non threatening environment. Pilots from other fleets say much the same thing. There is an abundance of 'honour' amongst fleet management. The same cannot be said for the blood suckers at higher levels.

Following SARS, we all gave, in the company's interest, they happily took what we gave. The economic impact of SARS was over within about 3 months, but still, the salary cut went on to the present day, amidst huge profits. How nice of us to subsidise their profit. And now, it's our turn to take, and we wait and we wait and we wait. Even if the 'refund' arrived tomorrow, it's much much too late. SARS is no longer a factor, it has not been for a very long time.

If I were much younger, my footsteps would be amongst those leaving for greener (sandier) pastures, but at my age this is not an option, nor is much else. It would sadden me to go (if I could) because SIA is a truly wonderful airline to work for. I'm here for the duration.

Even with all of their other warts and blemishes, there are still a reasonable number of fairly honourable airlines around. SIA is not one of them.

Now, the minnow is leaving the pond, I'll hand the forum back to the sharks.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[411A]

Having worked for SQ a very long time ago, I notice that not much has changed.

SQ can be broadly described as...

1. A stepping stone for pilots wanting to be trained on newer equipment, then moving on to another airline, for better pay.

2. The same as above, except those direct entry Captains, that need more command hours, to move to another airline...for better pay.

3. Captains from another airline, who may have retired early or, not liking the management 'style' at their former, decided to give SQ a try, just for a change of pace.

4. In the case of First Officers, new guys who just may need that break...so as to later move on to better salary.

Notice that three of the four points above included...move on to another airline.

Yes, not much has changed in the twenty five years since I was there...and it ain't likely too, either.

In fact, it appears to have gone down hill rather drastically...hardly surprising either, considering the past/present govt attitudes/policies.

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

Oh my Gawd! Old Smokey said that he was handing the forum back to the sharks, and we get JAWS!

Good to see you 411A, keep on firing.

[Kaptin M]

Unfortunately, Old Smokey, it seems that this management greed syndrome is an almost worldwide plague on many airlines at the present.
Airlines are being burdened with excessive numbers of overpaid, non-revenue producing "managers", whose ONLY method of justifying their bloated income is to screw other employees' conditions.

411A, your observations of a quarter of a century ago may have been correct ( I wonder if you were one of the pilots on the MSA B707 that I flew on, as kid, from Hong Kong to SIN, and then SIN to PER, in 1970?), however, SQ moved on to become a RESPECTED, CAREER AIRLINE offering reasonably good conditions during the early - mid 1990's, when your's truly was there.
My experience there (in SQ) was enjoyable - although, as is usual, this was not the case with all the pilots - as was living in Singapore.
As Old Smokey states, "I believed in a fair system of give and take, I went the extra mile for them when necessary, and they in turn were most helpful in going their extra mile for me if I encountered a problem.", and I think that was generally the majority prevailing opinion.

However, friends I had - who remained there, following my departure - told me that the airline changed. These were friends who, similar to O S, enjoyed being there, but subsequently looked forward to the day they could leave, either due to age retirement, or by changing employers, thanks to these non-revenue producing, greedy managers.
The foresight of these nrpm's is truly limited, because although they might save a few pennies in the short term, the longer term impact is going to cost the companies a LOT MORE than any savings they make now.
Why?
For the reason that they are destroying any "goodwill" that existed with the majority of the employees - the same "goodwill" and "company spirit" that ensures many employees are actually HAPPY to work for an employer for a little LESS, when they are HAPPY in that employ.
An airline is not only a collection of aeroplanes, check-in desks, pushback tugs, and conveyor belts. It is PEOPLE that unite the company to make the working environment the face of the airline.
Treat the PEOPLE badly, and it will eventually be reflected in the airline's bottom line.

It's a shame to see Singapore Airlines being sent down the gurgler by the greed of a (relative) few.

[Old Smokey]

Thank you Kaptin M, for putting into words that which I would find difficult to verbalise.

In reading the last line of your post, I'm not so sure that SIA is going down the gurgler, but they do seem hell-bent on a plummet towards the ordinary.

It's true, I was always willing to work for a little less, when the trade-off was to work for an excellent and very stable organisation with a high profit motive, thus ensuring the viability of their own, and my future. Unfortunately, profit has become the ONLY motive. The residual quality is still there, but steadily eroding. From a selfish point of view, I can extrapolate this rate of erosion of quality to just about see me through to retirement (which I do not look forward to). I sympathise with those younger than me, they will never see the halcyon days that I did.

SIA is wonderfully in 'the black', good for them, I am strongly philosophically aligned with the ethos of a good profit in return for a good service. In the past, SIA made good profits from external sources, i.e. the generation of new business, good market strategy in the marketplace etc. But something changed......

SIA still makes good profits from external sources, but in the new management style of maximising profit at any cost, found that they could maximise them even further from within by consuming it's own body and soul, and that they did to the very people who made it all possible - their staff.

In medical terms, a body which is consuming itself has a CANCER, and for a body to survive, the cancer must be excised.

I call it cancer, you call them non-revenue producing managers.

Old Smokey

[highcirrus]

That’s a very good couple of posts Old Smokey, you’re right on the nail. Please keep then up.

What I have privately been thinking of as “an ever tightening spiral of greed” when categorizing Singapore Airlines’ emergent approach to corporate governance, under the relatively recent overall stewardship of Lee Kuan Yew’s daughter-in-law, Lee Ho Ching (CEO, Temasek Holdings) and the Flt Ops stewardship of armchair general Bey LG (little god), you cleverly metaphorize as a cancerous body “which is consuming itself”.

For the “body to survive”, therefore, which part of the cancer must be excised?

[In the slot]

It is interesting to note some of the statements being made. No doubt there are some people reasonably happy at SIA, or maybe are not happy, but do not feel it is worth the upheavel to move themselves and their families, maybe to have an additional 10% in the bank, and be able to drive a mercedes in the middle east!!

I know many pilots around the world who earn FAR less than SQ guys for flying similar equipment.......this is after putting in bonuses (13 month and profit share) and taking out a maximum of 22% tax at the highest level.......What counts is what you can save for a similar standard of living, and hours of work somewhere else.

The company's actions have been very heavy handed, over-reactionary, and certainly lacking in integrity, and morale is not good, this is all correct. Additionally, all this is being done needlessly in the light of excellent financial results. Contracts and conditions are constantly chaging, and the company is certainly de grading its standing as an employer.

However, I know pilots from American majors who have moved to other airlines due to imminent retrenchment at home, or airline bankruptcy. I know first officers who wait 6 or 7 years for a narrowbody command with a bad basing, with no chance of a widebody command for many years after that.

I know pilots who fly 4 sectors a day, 5 days a week, who have to take their own food on board!

Its all down to what you want......I know that people who say that QF earn much more, are wrong. I have mates at QF, who after Aussie tax, earn less than me! And the cost of living in Oz has sky rocketted.

Mention has been made of 7 F/O's going to EK from SIA......have they read the EK forums on this site???? They may be shaking in their boots?? I know captains who went to EK as well........and they are by no means happy there!!!!

Dragon Air for those who want money......a few other contracts in Vietnam maybe.........apart from that, unless you are a well established guy in one of the traditional majors in europ or the USA, you are gonna have to decide if you would rather post your distaste under the Far East or the Middle East forums, because they are all going the same way! Check EK complaints about wage cuts and duty times/sickness.

Good luck to those who stay........good luck to those who go......good luck to those who come! Its all down to what is most important in your life, because wherever you go, there are gonna be major sacrifices and frustrations in some areas of yourexistence, and all airline management know that!

[411A]

...and some managements (SQ for example) will exploit this to the hilt.

However, it will bite them in the a@@ at some point, and my thinking...not all that far in the future.

[jstars2]

Talking of General Bey LG (little god), I like the story, currently going the rounds, of him talking at (as opposed to listening to) a group of ex-pat pilots corralled at a recent “tea party”.

To score some point, LG triumphantly pointed out that he could get three Bangladeshi captains for the price of one ex-pat SQ captain.

The momentary silence was followed by the swift rejoinder that SQ could get three Bangladeshi generals for the price of a Singaporean one and, moreover, they’d be proper ones, not comic opera armchair ones!

[CDRW]

Yes jstars2 - think that was a year or two ago - did cause a chuckle tho, and I think that to this day there are no Bangladeshi pilots in SIA - well certainly not in the numbers that the arm chair general would want!

Old Smokey - wonderful description of how the company is slowly going down the pan of life. And our CEO still continues to forecast gloom and doom in the long term for the airline, unless there is major restructuring of renumeration! Please. As if there has not been enough "renumeration restructuring" - most of us would call it contract breaking.

Would dearly like to ask, in the next pilots meeting, if the upper management consider SIA to be an honourable company. Even they may find it hard to give a positive reply.

[Omark44]

Underlying the obvious moves by SIA management to continually erode the T & Cs of pilots is one man. Lee Kwan Yew hates the pilot workforce and has done ever since they adopted some industrial action over twenty years ago. Recent events that brought about a vote of no confidence in the ALPS(S) leaders simply exacerbated the situation and the sacking and deportation of Capt. Ryan Goh was done just to show who was really the boss.

The vote of no confidence also served to reawake LKYs determination to marginalise and minimise the status of pilot in SIA and what better way to do this than attack their rice bowl and take away their money?

Not to mention officially downgrading the job of pilot to one of skilled labour, (check with the Ministry of Manpower!), and delisting it in Singapore as a profession!!!

All the time that LKY is alive the CEO and anyone else that acts to further disenfranchise the SIA pilot will have his blessing, God only knows what his son will do after the old man is gone.