Shenzhen & Hainan A/Ls hiring
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
aviator1962, "Starting as F/O, but upgrade within six months."
Does that mean that you applied for the job as a captain, and have been told that you have it, but will have to spend (a minimum) 6 months flying as a co-pilot?
Ivan has considerable experience and knowledge of contract flying, and I would strongly urge
prospective applicants to read his posts carefully and thoroughly.
He calls a spade a spade, and won't sugar coat it the way some of the agency employees who post here under the guise of pilots do!
The last thing you need, is to find yourself stuck in a foreign country where EVERYTHING (that means street signs, menus, radio & television, bus signs, application forms, utilities bills, etc) is ALL in Chinese.
After the novelty wears off you'll realise that the crew don't really want you joining them when they stop over, but if you do tag along it will be on their terms (you'll be offered exotic foods - snakes, tortoises, frogs, rats, pig's ear..) and you'll find yourself excluded from 99% of the conversation, because it's too difficult for them to converse amongst themselves in a foreign language.
And then you find that you're saving what? $300..$500 per month?
The flying might seem appealing at first, but it will be the Dollars that will make or break you after 6-12 months.
Does that mean that you applied for the job as a captain, and have been told that you have it, but will have to spend (a minimum) 6 months flying as a co-pilot?
Ivan has considerable experience and knowledge of contract flying, and I would strongly urge
prospective applicants to read his posts carefully and thoroughly.He calls a spade a spade, and won't sugar coat it the way some of the agency employees who post here under the guise of pilots do!
The last thing you need, is to find yourself stuck in a foreign country where EVERYTHING (that means street signs, menus, radio & television, bus signs, application forms, utilities bills, etc) is ALL in Chinese.
After the novelty wears off you'll realise that the crew don't really want you joining them when they stop over, but if you do tag along it will be on their terms (you'll be offered exotic foods - snakes, tortoises, frogs, rats, pig's ear..) and you'll find yourself excluded from 99% of the conversation, because it's too difficult for them to converse amongst themselves in a foreign language.
And then you find that you're saving what? $300..$500 per month?
The flying might seem appealing at first, but it will be the Dollars that will make or break you after 6-12 months.
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Would it be unreasonable to expect the recruiting agency to contribute a paltry $300 pcm from the $1500-$2000 per pilot per month, they cream, to pay for accomodation?
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Good and Bad
Kap
Must be nuts but I genuinely like it.
You can laugh at the strange food but you don't have to eat it.
You can feel you are being ignored but that changes with time.
You can have your satellite dish with 40+ foreign channels put on for 2200RMB (US$275)-Black market job.
You can learn their culture and appreciate some of their history.
My agency IAC has no Pilots in Shenzhen.
Direct do and have put the hard work in and are looking at being in for the long haul.
Contractair put the hard yards in last year to be the ground breakers. So they have a few Pilots and appear to be in for the second round.
So I hope you're not referring to me as one of the following: "won't sugar coat it the way some of the agency employees who post here under the guise of pilots do"
Because I am a Pilot and I like Urge am expressing my opinion.
I have been in China since Nov 2001. Urge has been here significantly less. And yes I also have a lot of Contract experience.
True! it has not helped with the demise of the US$, being not much of a gig for an Australian or a European. But if your currency is tied (or follows) the US$, it pays enough to be able to save a decent amount without living like a civic cat (Sorry, a dog).
Particularly if you're working in Brazil for US$2000/mth. Or as an FO in an Eastern European country for around US$1000/mth.
Sugar Coating! Well sometimes it's a bit sour but I can handle it.
Must be nuts but I genuinely like it.
You can laugh at the strange food but you don't have to eat it.
You can feel you are being ignored but that changes with time.
You can have your satellite dish with 40+ foreign channels put on for 2200RMB (US$275)-Black market job.
You can learn their culture and appreciate some of their history.
My agency IAC has no Pilots in Shenzhen.
Direct do and have put the hard work in and are looking at being in for the long haul.
Contractair put the hard yards in last year to be the ground breakers. So they have a few Pilots and appear to be in for the second round.
So I hope you're not referring to me as one of the following: "won't sugar coat it the way some of the agency employees who post here under the guise of pilots do"
Because I am a Pilot and I like Urge am expressing my opinion.
I have been in China since Nov 2001. Urge has been here significantly less. And yes I also have a lot of Contract experience.
True! it has not helped with the demise of the US$, being not much of a gig for an Australian or a European. But if your currency is tied (or follows) the US$, it pays enough to be able to save a decent amount without living like a civic cat (Sorry, a dog).
Particularly if you're working in Brazil for US$2000/mth. Or as an FO in an Eastern European country for around US$1000/mth.
Sugar Coating! Well sometimes it's a bit sour but I can handle it.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Hiya L.P..
No it wasn't directed at you, as a matter of fact I wasn't aware that you were working with IAC in a contractor role.
I do realise that you are in a different part of China to Hesgotan Urge, employed under a different contract, and working with different people.
From time to time (not only on this forum), posts appear that are just too glowing (and often indicating that there are upgrade prospects) when compared with posts of others who are in situ. Offering the sort of stuff that will suck pilots in, eg. quick upgrade to the lhs for F/O's, upgrades to bigger, newer, equipment (beautiful, desperate F/A's
just dying to meet suave, debonair, foreign pilots.)
My reason for citing some of the examples I did (eg. the food) was to make some people aware of the BIG change in living conditions they face, if they have never lived in Asia. The young guys with stars in their eyes, who believe the world revolves around an aeroplane.
For both you, L.P., and Urge, this was not the case, you had both already experienced life out of the western mainstream for a considerable period, prior to Hainan and Shenzen, whereas mine was a gentle transition, as Singapore was my first experience at life as an expat.
It is one thing to travel to a country and stay in a (western style) Hotel, but quite a different kettle of fish when one moves into an apartment or house.
As for those pilots working in Brazil or Eastern Europe (who earn considerably more than $1,000 they tell me), the difference there is the cultures are similar, making the adjustment much easier.
Even in this part of Asia, which is very "user-friendly" for expats, there are still people who are unable to adjust. I believe that mainland China would be considerably more difficult than most places, and if there's not enough $$$'s going into savings each month to compensate, then life is going to be extremely miserable, imo.
No it wasn't directed at you, as a matter of fact I wasn't aware that you were working with IAC in a contractor role.
I do realise that you are in a different part of China to Hesgotan Urge, employed under a different contract, and working with different people.
From time to time (not only on this forum), posts appear that are just too glowing (and often indicating that there are upgrade prospects) when compared with posts of others who are in situ. Offering the sort of stuff that will suck pilots in, eg. quick upgrade to the lhs for F/O's, upgrades to bigger, newer, equipment (beautiful, desperate F/A's
just dying to meet suave, debonair, foreign pilots.)My reason for citing some of the examples I did (eg. the food) was to make some people aware of the BIG change in living conditions they face, if they have never lived in Asia. The young guys with stars in their eyes, who believe the world revolves around an aeroplane.
For both you, L.P., and Urge, this was not the case, you had both already experienced life out of the western mainstream for a considerable period, prior to Hainan and Shenzen, whereas mine was a gentle transition, as Singapore was my first experience at life as an expat.
It is one thing to travel to a country and stay in a (western style) Hotel, but quite a different kettle of fish when one moves into an apartment or house.
As for those pilots working in Brazil or Eastern Europe (who earn considerably more than $1,000 they tell me), the difference there is the cultures are similar, making the adjustment much easier.
Even in this part of Asia, which is very "user-friendly" for expats, there are still people who are unable to adjust. I believe that mainland China would be considerably more difficult than most places, and if there's not enough $$$'s going into savings each month to compensate, then life is going to be extremely miserable, imo.
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Jumped the gun
Must be paranoid, overdosed on chicken feet!
Agree with all you said, except China is just as foreign to a Brazilian as it is to an American or Australian.
Maybe some of the countries under the old USSR might appreciate some of the finer points of Government here
Agree with all you said, except China is just as foreign to a Brazilian as it is to an American or Australian.
Maybe some of the countries under the old USSR might appreciate some of the finer points of Government here
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"Maybe some of the countries under the old USSR might appreciate some of the finer points of Government here."
I am not sure about this.
As I my father had been deported in his age of 5 for 4 years,I have to disagree with You.
I am not sure about this.
As I my father had been deported in his age of 5 for 4 years,I have to disagree with You.
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aviator 1962; You must have that ''within 6 months to command " clause in your contract. Me thinks it won't be and I must warn you that it has taken more than that for experienced captains to get checked out here. Even if it was, it WILL be subject to their assesment for commandability. Read my previous post again re offers of right seats to experienced captains. Are you a gambling man? USD 200/month will get you accomodation but frankly speaking it will not be flash by anyones standard. I call it as it is- no apologies. Good flyers needed-yes. Good flyers- respected? I'll let you be the judge if you come. You will need a LOT of patience and even more experience to get along here. It is interesting but not for the feint-hearted. Here, the 'will of the man' overrides the manuals. Do a sincere appraisal of the pros and cons before you come- it may surprise you. BTW one of the agencies here thought that Loss of Licence Insurance was to cover you for accidental loss of your licence in the street for example. Say no more.
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Loss of License
Urge
I wanna join that agency... Oops lost my license whilst drinking last night, thought it was in a safe place!!... Hmmm maybe I'll take the $300,000. Thxs
Hahaha
I wanna join that agency... Oops lost my license whilst drinking last night, thought it was in a safe place!!... Hmmm maybe I'll take the $300,000. Thxs
Hahaha
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Exotic Foods... Well, top of climb today up comes a tray of inflight 'nibbles'. Great I thought, little sausages. On closer inspection they were not sausages. "What are these" I say. Silence while the electronic dictionary gets withdrawn from the flight bag opposite.
After several minutes the reply comes;
LOCUSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eeeeeeoouch..............
After several minutes the reply comes;
LOCUSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eeeeeeoouch..............
Last edited by Ivan Urge; 7th Mar 2004 at 21:22.
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I don't think Ivan will have the URGE to land in Taipei.... Mainland carriers even though apparently welcome in Taiwan will be met with force! Plus not good for the career progression.
Ivan were the Locusts in Chocolate sauce or done with a Szechwan pepper?
Sure is one way to lose weight.
Ivan were the Locusts in Chocolate sauce or done with a Szechwan pepper?
Sure is one way to lose weight.
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So which is the Agency to go for, any contract worker as we know wants to earn that bit more for their retirement. Maybe cheap in China, but thats not the point.By the way can you bring your families along, do they pay for schooling and things like that. Are tickets included. It would be interesting for the family, but are they taboo!!!. actually heard from one Agency that Chinese pilots are registering on their database, they want out. Thats of course the ones that can speak English. Are the Manuals etc in English or do you have to do a crash course in Chinese to know whats expected of you. Also heard you get fined for heavy landings!!! Lots of questions to ask you Le Pilot. Would be interesting I admit, but too many buts, are you prepared to answer the buts??? you seem to know the market out there. By the way are you an Agent?? rather curious. Bit of a messy mail but too many questions to ask at once apologies for that.
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From Kaptin M:
Sounds a lot like China Airlines, only for LESS money...
The last thing you need, is to find yourself stuck in a foreign country where EVERYTHING (that means street signs, menus, radio & television, bus signs, application forms, utilities bills, etc) is ALL in Chinese.
After the novelty wears off you'll realise that the crew don't really want you joining them when they stop over, but if you do tag along it will be on their terms (you'll be offered exotic foods - snakes, tortoises, frogs, rats, pig's ear..) and you'll find yourself excluded from 99% of the conversation, because it's too difficult for them to converse amongst themselves in a foreign language.
And then you find that you're saving what? $300..$500 per month?
The flying might seem appealing at first, but it will be the Dollars that will make or break you after 6-12 months.
After the novelty wears off you'll realise that the crew don't really want you joining them when they stop over, but if you do tag along it will be on their terms (you'll be offered exotic foods - snakes, tortoises, frogs, rats, pig's ear..) and you'll find yourself excluded from 99% of the conversation, because it's too difficult for them to converse amongst themselves in a foreign language.
And then you find that you're saving what? $300..$500 per month?
The flying might seem appealing at first, but it will be the Dollars that will make or break you after 6-12 months.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Mmmmmm LOCUST.
The chokkie ones are the dessert, LP - Ivan was probably served the hors d'oeuvre variety...fried.
You'd have to remember those were on offer in one of your previous abodes during certain times of the year.
Hopefully not - that would be a BIG fine.
The chokkie ones are the dessert, LP - Ivan was probably served the hors d'oeuvre variety...fried.
You'd have to remember those were on offer in one of your previous abodes during certain times of the year.
do you have to do a crash course in Chinese
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All this talk about my favourites.... Just whetting the appetite.A lot of Chinese Pilots want out due to their pay being less than half that of a foreigner. Heard this before.
Organisation is not one of their better attributes but they're trying hard and there are definate signs of improvement.
Luckily in Hainan they don't fine the foreigners for heavy landings, just fire their "r"cers (After a couple of warnings)
Rollo, I've been out here on Devils
Island for 28 months. And No I am not agency. Why do I look like a pimp? But I work through a pimp.... Which makes me a....... Well at least it's a job!
Manuals are in English. When you as the foreigner are to fly.. the unfortunate FO has to carry the "Handicap's flight case" with all the English documents.
They're all trying to improve their English whilst we get tongue cramps trying to learn mandarin.
The Hainan management are always reasonable but just take of your "Sheet kicking boots" if you don't agree with them.
They want to take the company into the present century
and damn well will ask your advise once they trust you.It's never easy living in China but don't take it too serious and have heaps of patience!.... Now Where's that Valium
Whatever happens,.. happens!
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I have enjoyed reading this topic, very informative!
I'd also like to thank all the contributors for sticking to the plot.
I saw the ads looking for Pilots and as it happens I happen to have about half of my 16000 hrs TT on the 73's, albeit jurassic and classic, no NG.
The mortgage is paid up, the house is empty and I still have the tavel itch. The wife would probably be happy to have a longdistance marriage and I could live with it too. Since I have been an expat for most of my life I could probably survive working with all non english speaking crew. But really, US$ 6500 a month, for what could be fairly described as a hardship post?
No matter how low the cost of living in a given location, (unless you plan to spend the rest of your life there) at the end of the day you will still need to be able to retire on something other then love and sunshine.
I for one would be happy to let someone benefit from all of my experience (management experience included) but it would have to be at something closer to twice the remunertion that's currently being offered.
A Dollar does'nt buy what it used to!
I'd also like to thank all the contributors for sticking to the plot.
I saw the ads looking for Pilots and as it happens I happen to have about half of my 16000 hrs TT on the 73's, albeit jurassic and classic, no NG.
The mortgage is paid up, the house is empty and I still have the tavel itch. The wife would probably be happy to have a longdistance marriage and I could live with it too. Since I have been an expat for most of my life I could probably survive working with all non english speaking crew. But really, US$ 6500 a month, for what could be fairly described as a hardship post?
No matter how low the cost of living in a given location, (unless you plan to spend the rest of your life there) at the end of the day you will still need to be able to retire on something other then love and sunshine.
I for one would be happy to let someone benefit from all of my experience (management experience included) but it would have to be at something closer to twice the remunertion that's currently being offered.
A Dollar does'nt buy what it used to!
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Shenzen is one of the the most modern cities in China with good infrastructures. It is green but a bit dirty if compared to older cities like Beijing. It has the highest GDP in China and people from rural provinces flocked here for job opportunities and brought along many dirty habits. Many without proper education or skill turn to pickpocketing,begging or prostituitions.
Generally,the people work very hard for long hours,and few rest days. There are many tourist spots, outdoor recreational places like parks with sporting faclities and hills with paved path for climbers.It's not a bad place to work for a year or two.
Two major shortcomings; Difficulty in comm and dealing with the
government officials needs a lot of patience. We dubbed the immigration ,custom and security officers at SZX Airport as little emperrors. They change the procedures from time to time and they are supposed to be right all the time. It is so frustrating as most of them speak only PU TONG HUA (Mandarin). You stamp your passport every time in and out as crew.
Oherwise living here is much better than many places in developing countries and USD 5-6000 amonth takes you a long way. I am not flying for SZX Airlines but I found some clauses in the contract quite disturbing. You are expected to fly 72 hours amonth(from take off to landing and not chocks to chocks), anything less will be deducted from salary. The company has the right to fire you if you fall sick for more than 8 days a year. If you fail any COT, the company can fire you and you have to pay back the contract sum.
Ivan is right, read the contract carefully and know what u are into.
Generally,the people work very hard for long hours,and few rest days. There are many tourist spots, outdoor recreational places like parks with sporting faclities and hills with paved path for climbers.It's not a bad place to work for a year or two.
Two major shortcomings; Difficulty in comm and dealing with the
government officials needs a lot of patience. We dubbed the immigration ,custom and security officers at SZX Airport as little emperrors. They change the procedures from time to time and they are supposed to be right all the time. It is so frustrating as most of them speak only PU TONG HUA (Mandarin). You stamp your passport every time in and out as crew.
Oherwise living here is much better than many places in developing countries and USD 5-6000 amonth takes you a long way. I am not flying for SZX Airlines but I found some clauses in the contract quite disturbing. You are expected to fly 72 hours amonth(from take off to landing and not chocks to chocks), anything less will be deducted from salary. The company has the right to fire you if you fall sick for more than 8 days a year. If you fail any COT, the company can fire you and you have to pay back the contract sum.
Ivan is right, read the contract carefully and know what u are into.
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Gem
Hainan Airlines have none of the fascist clauses of Shenzhen.
The Climate here is fantastic but there are no English speaking schools, only 2 kindergardens.
Shenzhen Airport security are a pain in the you know where... But Hainan security is too lax.
Probably a better deal overall in Haikou.
Hainan Airlines have none of the fascist clauses of Shenzhen.
The Climate here is fantastic but there are no English speaking schools, only 2 kindergardens.
Shenzhen Airport security are a pain in the you know where... But Hainan security is too lax.
Probably a better deal overall in Haikou.
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Actually, Shenzhen airport security aren't too bad, if a little inconsistent.
(sexist mode on) I wouldn't mind a full body search from some of the ladies concerned (sexist mode off)
Certain officers aside, immigration are the biggest variable at the moment. The rules and the interpretation there-of, seem to vary with each official on duty, and possibly on what kind of a day he has had. Although in this, they merely may be achieving 'world's best practice'. LA and HNL spring to mind as fine examples of the trade.
Quarantine seem the most relaxed, albeit occasionally inconsistent.
Of course this doesn't affect you guys on domestic.
Snooze
(sexist mode on) I wouldn't mind a full body search from some of the ladies concerned
(sexist mode off)Certain officers aside, immigration are the biggest variable at the moment. The rules and the interpretation there-of, seem to vary with each official on duty, and possibly on what kind of a day he has had. Although in this, they merely may be achieving 'world's best practice'. LA and HNL spring to mind as fine examples of the trade.
Quarantine seem the most relaxed, albeit occasionally inconsistent.
Of course this doesn't affect you guys on domestic.
Snooze