International Cadet scheme is dying! Welcome back to Expat Conditions
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
International Cadet scheme is dying! Welcome back to Expat Conditions
Dear All
I have been doing a little research for those of you on the fence about making a decision.
With all the planes arriving & pilots leaving we are currently very short at CX.
Short haul pilots are doing 90hrs. Rumor has it ULH pilots will be doing close on 100 hrs by the end of this year. What they have not taken into account are:
1) Pilots will need to move between fleets to keep planes flying, due to imbalance numbers. This will take out a huge chunk of guys flying the line.
2) Training will take along time due to trainers resigning.
3) A hand full of guys in there 60's will be leaving sooner with new CAD271 variations being cocked up & the cancellation of Basings and leave slots not been met and no more Unpayed leave issued.
4) Cadet pilots are leaving for HK Airlines
5) Not enough International Cadets joining up and a few have returned home already (Thus is why they are trying to bond you now - lots of small print
)
6) Loads of unexpected long service leave in Oz is doing its fare share of damage as well.
Anyway 37 pilots have left this year already. I have seen many looking at other jobs coming up a few have gone for interviews.
So good news for all of you. But please don't sell yourselves out short.
Wait a little while long and Full Expat conditions will return. Once that does except a huge bun fight with all other airlines fighting for pilots.
EK is getting so many planes this year its scary. This will drive conditions throught the roof everywhere incl the ripple effect in your home countries.
Which may leave some of u asking why CX anyway as they don't do basings anymore anyway.
So hang in there and wait for better greens it just round the corner.
And while u wait buy & read the book 49'ers the true story. It may just save ur career.
Also HK Gov is not that happy that Expats are taking local Cadet slots. They don't mind full expats. That's added pressure.
I have been doing a little research for those of you on the fence about making a decision.
With all the planes arriving & pilots leaving we are currently very short at CX.
Short haul pilots are doing 90hrs. Rumor has it ULH pilots will be doing close on 100 hrs by the end of this year. What they have not taken into account are:
1) Pilots will need to move between fleets to keep planes flying, due to imbalance numbers. This will take out a huge chunk of guys flying the line.
2) Training will take along time due to trainers resigning.
3) A hand full of guys in there 60's will be leaving sooner with new CAD271 variations being cocked up & the cancellation of Basings and leave slots not been met and no more Unpayed leave issued.
4) Cadet pilots are leaving for HK Airlines
5) Not enough International Cadets joining up and a few have returned home already (Thus is why they are trying to bond you now - lots of small print
)6) Loads of unexpected long service leave in Oz is doing its fare share of damage as well.
Anyway 37 pilots have left this year already. I have seen many looking at other jobs coming up a few have gone for interviews.
So good news for all of you. But please don't sell yourselves out short.
Wait a little while long and Full Expat conditions will return. Once that does except a huge bun fight with all other airlines fighting for pilots.
EK is getting so many planes this year its scary. This will drive conditions throught the roof everywhere incl the ripple effect in your home countries.
Which may leave some of u asking why CX anyway as they don't do basings anymore anyway.
So hang in there and wait for better greens it just round the corner.
And while u wait buy & read the book 49'ers the true story. It may just save ur career.
Also HK Gov is not that happy that Expats are taking local Cadet slots. They don't mind full expats. That's added pressure.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just found this interview last wk by CX CEO - He confirms they need DE pilots again.
CATHAY PACIFIC's new CEO John Slosar says he will concentrate more on the passenger side because the joint venture with Air China now in place has put the freight business on a strong footing.
"I've got four big priorities," he told Hong Kong's South China Morning Post. "First, building the Cathay brand. Second, help the Hong Kong hub grow and be successful, which means finding new destinations, finding new ways to bring travellers to Hong Kong and increasing frequencies. Air China, Cathay and Dragonair should have fantastic opportunities to do well out of the expansion of travel to and from China."
Mr Slosar recently replaced Tony Tyler, who takes over as CEO of the Geneva-based International Air Transport Association (IATA) in early June.
One problem facing Cathay is the chronic pilot shortage, he said. "We trained 400 local people to be pilots over the last 15 to 20 years, about 50 to 70 now a year. It is our plan to do more but we will have to do it step by step. Hong Kong doesn't have a military, so we have to train most of them ourselves," he said.
"But it's a costly enterprise. Training a pilot costs about HK$1 million [US$128,000] just to get them up to be a second officer. It's quite a commitment, but probably it won't cover all of our growth requirements so we will source pilots elsewhere as well," he said.
Asked whether closer times with Air China (Cathay holds 19 per cent of Air China and Air China holds 30 per cent of Cathay), would meant recruiting mainland pilots?
"It's not something we do up until now, but never say never. We have quite a few staff exchanges with Air China and there are all sorts of possibilities in the future. China's going to be one of the biggest aviation markets in the world. We are happy to get talented people regardless of where they come from," Mr Slosar said.
American-born Mr Slosar has been CEO since April 1, before which he was COO since July, 2007, serving as managing director of Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Company (HKAEC) from 1996 to 1998 and managing director of Swire's beverages division before that. He joined Swire in 1980 and holds degrees in economics from Columbia and Cambridge.
"I've got four big priorities," he told Hong Kong's South China Morning Post. "First, building the Cathay brand. Second, help the Hong Kong hub grow and be successful, which means finding new destinations, finding new ways to bring travellers to Hong Kong and increasing frequencies. Air China, Cathay and Dragonair should have fantastic opportunities to do well out of the expansion of travel to and from China."
Mr Slosar recently replaced Tony Tyler, who takes over as CEO of the Geneva-based International Air Transport Association (IATA) in early June.
One problem facing Cathay is the chronic pilot shortage, he said. "We trained 400 local people to be pilots over the last 15 to 20 years, about 50 to 70 now a year. It is our plan to do more but we will have to do it step by step. Hong Kong doesn't have a military, so we have to train most of them ourselves," he said.
"But it's a costly enterprise. Training a pilot costs about HK$1 million [US$128,000] just to get them up to be a second officer. It's quite a commitment, but probably it won't cover all of our growth requirements so we will source pilots elsewhere as well," he said.
Asked whether closer times with Air China (Cathay holds 19 per cent of Air China and Air China holds 30 per cent of Cathay), would meant recruiting mainland pilots?
"It's not something we do up until now, but never say never. We have quite a few staff exchanges with Air China and there are all sorts of possibilities in the future. China's going to be one of the biggest aviation markets in the world. We are happy to get talented people regardless of where they come from," Mr Slosar said.
American-born Mr Slosar has been CEO since April 1, before which he was COO since July, 2007, serving as managing director of Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Company (HKAEC) from 1996 to 1998 and managing director of Swire's beverages division before that. He joined Swire in 1980 and holds degrees in economics from Columbia and Cambridge.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong K ong
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Past SO Conditions
Someone else will need to comment more..
Housing Get $64K pm linked to Gov index which adjusts with inflation. (1/2 that for ur 1st two years) When u Capt it increases by 30-40%
Schooling Private boarding for Family anywhere in the world 75% adjusts with inflation. 90% of EFS in HK
Comprehensive 1st class Medical cover worldwide Pilot / HK & domicile for family and full travel insurance.
There are loads of small print in new contract others can comment. But new contract has many holes which change be changed at will by CX. Worth toilet paper in court. (Well old one had holes as well)
Anyway its about worth about >20million more than the old one over the course of your career. So whats a month or two wait.
They've got the money and will pay..
Cx is a premium brand the customers demand it they pay top dollar.
Take some pride in our customers and give them what they deserve.
Housing Get $64K pm linked to Gov index which adjusts with inflation. (1/2 that for ur 1st two years) When u Capt it increases by 30-40%
Schooling Private boarding for Family anywhere in the world 75% adjusts with inflation. 90% of EFS in HK
Comprehensive 1st class Medical cover worldwide Pilot / HK & domicile for family and full travel insurance.
There are loads of small print in new contract others can comment. But new contract has many holes which change be changed at will by CX. Worth toilet paper in court. (Well old one had holes as well)
Anyway its about worth about >20million more than the old one over the course of your career. So whats a month or two wait.
They've got the money and will pay..
Cx is a premium brand the customers demand it they pay top dollar.
Take some pride in our customers and give them what they deserve.
Basings are now a shambles. CX has been drawn to the attention of various taxation, immigration and industrial authorities in many of the basing countries, additional to the amateurish and under-resourced base administration by CX. The 49er episode was certainly the catalyst for the UK base.
If you saw the tiny basings office that administrates almost 1/3 of Cathay Pacific's flight crew, you would probably burst out laughing.
As far as I know there are no more basings slots available until the mess gets sorted out. Temporary bases and base swaps have been axed. Even if slots become available again, you can APPLY as an FO but in most of the choice base areas it's 'dead mens' shoes' to actually be awarded one.
If you saw the tiny basings office that administrates almost 1/3 of Cathay Pacific's flight crew, you would probably burst out laughing.
As far as I know there are no more basings slots available until the mess gets sorted out. Temporary bases and base swaps have been axed. Even if slots become available again, you can APPLY as an FO but in most of the choice base areas it's 'dead mens' shoes' to actually be awarded one.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: OZ
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crewunite
But what are they saying in recruitment?
According to another thread they are interviewing up to 170 RAF guys and gals to fill some spots. If that's true then the company won't have any problems sourcing pilots.
But what are they saying in recruitment?
According to another thread they are interviewing up to 170 RAF guys and gals to fill some spots. If that's true then the company won't have any problems sourcing pilots.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: mars
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As part of cut backs in the UK the government cut a heap of crew who had not finished their courses. And so many of the RAF crew do not have licenses, so they will have to train as cadets, which all takes time.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ah, i see the trolls have arrived already. no big surprise there!
do you and the few others have nothing better to do than sit on pprune and slag off CX? we know your opinions and also your alterior motives - you admit yourself in a different post that your only wish is to protect your own job.
For who? For me? For you? How do you know what's good for me? I agree that the terms are far worse than say 4 years ago, but that's across the board. If i could take cx now or cx 4 years ago, of course i would take the old option. but it's foolish to compare what once was, with what is available now. So you have to compare the "crap" icadet offer with anything else you can get - "even more crap". And on that basis, it does in fact have its distinct advantages.
do you and the few others have nothing better to do than sit on pprune and slag off CX? we know your opinions and also your alterior motives - you admit yourself in a different post that your only wish is to protect your own job.
And understanding that the icadet contract is crap.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think what a lot of the "haters" are trying to say is that this current offer is crap. They have changed it twice already for the lack of acceptable applicants. They will probably change it in the future if enough people wait it out. CX can afford to pay the expat terms but they want to see if enough people are willing to work without it. CX is still trolling to find the current market conditions pilots will for. Hopefully they will add some bigger bait soon!
Guest
Posts: n/a
And while u wait buy & read the book 49'ers the true story. It may just save ur career.
If i could take cx now or cx 4 years ago, of course i would take the old option.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't it odd that those arguing for better terms & conditions for ALL pilots are abused & belittled by those seeking to accept tbe lower package? They defend their choice vehemently. All about "ME" and screw the reprecussions for others at CX, the airline or industry.
Those selling out to join CX are the same ones who would almost falate a CX pilot if they met one socially, CV in hand, "can you mention my name or submit my application to CX HR for me...," yet here the bottom feeders abuse those they desperately will sell-out to join.
Those condeming these woeful terms & conditions are called "trolls" by such wannabes!? But isn't a troll a bottom feeder, living beneath small bridges existing on scraps thrown as waste by others?
What would be sweet justice is that these bottom feeders get precisely what they ask for. If the package is improved out of necessity for those who did hold out then the COS of the real trolls is not changed for the duration of their career. There's a word used for those who ride the backs of others standing up for better conditions. Trolls quickly become scabs.
Those selling out to join CX are the same ones who would almost falate a CX pilot if they met one socially, CV in hand, "can you mention my name or submit my application to CX HR for me...," yet here the bottom feeders abuse those they desperately will sell-out to join.
Those condeming these woeful terms & conditions are called "trolls" by such wannabes!? But isn't a troll a bottom feeder, living beneath small bridges existing on scraps thrown as waste by others?
What would be sweet justice is that these bottom feeders get precisely what they ask for. If the package is improved out of necessity for those who did hold out then the COS of the real trolls is not changed for the duration of their career. There's a word used for those who ride the backs of others standing up for better conditions. Trolls quickly become scabs.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: the air up there
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Those selling out to join CX are the same ones who would almost falate a CX pilot if they met one socially"
I think this is the most idiotic statement i have ever seen on pprune! made even more stupid by your poor spelling. Maybe before insulting people you should learn how to spell words like 'fellate'. The guys online might not know what you're saying when you ask to falate them!
I think this is the most idiotic statement i have ever seen on pprune! made even more stupid by your poor spelling. Maybe before insulting people you should learn how to spell words like 'fellate'. The guys online might not know what you're saying when you ask to falate them!
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Easycompany: idiotic because you are one seeking to join the iCadet program & hence the idea that those with experience & self worth stand against it?? You've been posting asking the questions about how to prepare for this sell-out deal. If you really did your research you would wait for CX to offer a decent package again & not sell-out yourself, other CX pilots & industry.
Congratulations on catching me out on a typo/spelling mistake. What's important is you get the drift.
Congratulations on catching me out on a typo/spelling mistake. What's important is you get the drift.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 3rd Jun 2011 at 02:16.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a lot of outdated info on the internet regarding fleet size, number of routes and countries with CX flights flying to them (not codeshares or One World). Does anyone have the definative numbers as of today?
Many thanks,
VFE.
PS: Does anyone know what the old B-Scale HKPA for 1st year SO was?
Many thanks,
VFE.
PS: Does anyone know what the old B-Scale HKPA for 1st year SO was?
Last edited by VFE; 3rd Jun 2011 at 08:56.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Next to the ocean
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well i got the arse in Honk Kong at stage 2......Don't know why, they wouldn't say
living in Hong Kong would give me nightmares.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 45
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm assuming you'd be qualified to join on the old terms for Direct Entry Expat S/O??
FRQ CB
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Outside
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ ChinaBeached...and the others
I'm confused at your comments as well as the comments of the others. I also have friends in the cadet program who did not have hours and some who have completed and and are currently SO's (and soon to be FO's) at CX. For the ones that are currently training, they did not have any experience before and thus this would be a great opportunity for them. I'm trying to figure out how they are screwing themselves out of a great career? Just because CX does not offer what it used to?
Take a look at every single airline in the world and its the same story. An airline is a business first and will look for anyway to save money. With that being said, the current terms for cadet SO's, WHICH HAVE NOT CHANGED AT ALL as someone mentioned, are actually not too bad. And for those thinking that SO time is 5 years, at the moment the current upgrade time from SO to FO is 3 years. People are in the process of upgrading as we speak. The pay for SO's is now at $46,000 HKD a month which is $5,905 USD a month. That's well over what anyone starting in North America will make. And the cost of living in HK is the same as New York City and people live there for less.
For all of you arguing against people joining the cadet program, I do agree with one part. If you are someone with 2500hrs, loads of jet time, lots of experience....then certainly the cadet scheme is probably not for you and you should wait for DEFO. However, DO NOT put down the ones who don't have experience, or have very little, for trying to get ahead. They are not screwing any of you out of a job. As you have mentioned in other posts, you are worried that CX will continue to cut pay and you will get a bit less. You aren't trying to help people "see the light", you are putting everyone else down to make sure your job stays "safe".
I'm looking for an individual who can shed some REAL light on the Cadet program and living in Hong Kong. Someone who wont clutter the post with useless babble about how much they HATE cathay. Give everyone the TRUE facts and let them decide if this is the company for them. Again for those of you out there with Millions of hours, I agree hold out for something better. But don't bash those with a few hours who see this is a great opportunity, which it truly is. I bet if you didn't have as many hours, you would be running to cathay as well.
Take a look at every single airline in the world and its the same story. An airline is a business first and will look for anyway to save money. With that being said, the current terms for cadet SO's, WHICH HAVE NOT CHANGED AT ALL as someone mentioned, are actually not too bad. And for those thinking that SO time is 5 years, at the moment the current upgrade time from SO to FO is 3 years. People are in the process of upgrading as we speak. The pay for SO's is now at $46,000 HKD a month which is $5,905 USD a month. That's well over what anyone starting in North America will make. And the cost of living in HK is the same as New York City and people live there for less.
For all of you arguing against people joining the cadet program, I do agree with one part. If you are someone with 2500hrs, loads of jet time, lots of experience....then certainly the cadet scheme is probably not for you and you should wait for DEFO. However, DO NOT put down the ones who don't have experience, or have very little, for trying to get ahead. They are not screwing any of you out of a job. As you have mentioned in other posts, you are worried that CX will continue to cut pay and you will get a bit less. You aren't trying to help people "see the light", you are putting everyone else down to make sure your job stays "safe".
I'm looking for an individual who can shed some REAL light on the Cadet program and living in Hong Kong. Someone who wont clutter the post with useless babble about how much they HATE cathay. Give everyone the TRUE facts and let them decide if this is the company for them. Again for those of you out there with Millions of hours, I agree hold out for something better. But don't bash those with a few hours who see this is a great opportunity, which it truly is. I bet if you didn't have as many hours, you would be running to cathay as well.