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ETOPS240
No the same principle doesn’t apply. The internet didn’t exist in 1993 to put the word out the way it can now. “A” scalers were at a distinct disadvantage because of this but at the same time were assured by the company that “B” scale wouldn’t affect them. History has shown us this was a lie because in 1999 they had a new inferior contract stuffed in their mail boxes with the option to sign or be fired.
No the same principle doesn’t apply. The internet didn’t exist in 1993 to put the word out the way it can now. “A” scalers were at a distinct disadvantage because of this but at the same time were assured by the company that “B” scale wouldn’t affect them. History has shown us this was a lie because in 1999 they had a new inferior contract stuffed in their mail boxes with the option to sign or be fired.
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Flight: My understanding would be that the with a crew of 2 x SO's the Capt would more than likely fly with the least experienced SO, and a relief qualified FO with the more senior SO. Still, an overall reduction in safety standards: deliberately and unabashedly. Sort of goes against their mission statement doesn't it? (Cathay Pacific - About Us : CX Background)
Unfortunately I would. I asked them.
No they won't. They'll never sleep in the back of their C404 in the middle of a nowhere, live off 2 minute noodles, work an extra job or 2 just to get enough saved for the petrol & related costs to drive a few thousand kms to hunt for work.... But, that's not at all what frustrates me. If there was a job closer to home I would've jumped at it! But there wasn't so I did what it took to look for the exact same jobs that everyone told me were "not there". The harder I worked, the harder I looked, the luckier I seemed to get. Odd that. It is the attitude of too many iCadet wannabes who see such things as too hard and can't be bothered, let alone the SJS.
I'm not sure I follow you. The iCadet package, offers less renumeration in an increasing cost of living city for the same job as another SO, FO, Capt, etc but perhaps 3 years apart in joining date. 2 pilots with same title doing the same job on greatly different salary packages for their entire careers. The housing assistance for the iCadet is not even factored to CPI changes so the $10k HKD in year WILL BE worth less every year. Yes it increases but it is not a far fetched theory to state that when it peaks out at $36k HKD it may only be worth as much as the $10k HKD was so many years before.
Cheers for the reply...appreciated
Comedian: you are obviously chasing the iCadet program hoping for a position. That is your choice and of course your right. We can disagree, no big deal. Is this "THE BEST" deal going in the WORLD? With my experience I will offer the opinion and by far it is not. With GA time you become a free agent and not chained to CX. Of course other cadetships and airlines include bonds, but not to the crippling affect that CX does: not only by money but by hours that (are not) in the log book (P2X) and the financial situation. I mentioned a few such options from the top of my head in a previous post. I sincerely believe too many here blindly say this package is THE BEST because they have not done any thorough (REAL thorough) research into what is or could be available, let alone get off their tails, away from their computers and hit the road for a month or 2 at the very least. Just look at the questions people post on these iCadet threads! Case in point: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...-opinions.html
This guy wants "FACTS" and so turns to a RUMOUR network!!?? C'mon!!! SERIOUSLY? These guys demand respect for their "passion" as hopeful airline pilots? Give me a break!
A genuine question: Is this the BEST JOB or the QUICKEST AND EASIEST job to get into for low hour pilots trying for a jet airline job?
Yes, of course you can get by and eventually save some money on the iCadet package. But still I do not see it anyway as a LONG TERM decent retirement package AT ALL. Too many refuse to factor in life's hiccups and natural growth of family, kids, partner unemployed (1 x salary, a wife and a kid or 2 or 3?!!) Again.... LONNNGGG TERM is what I refer to.
It is too easy to label those arguing from a different platform to you as "trolls". The same could just as easily be said in reverse. As I've mentioned before, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Some make accusations or ask questions, get the answers and so change tact to other matters of irrelevance or demeanor. So, fire with fire.
You'll see one of the most informed guys on this thread is VoiceofReason. Quite rightly he has corrected me where my information was either outdated or just plain wrong. Flight100 can also post in a logical and decent manner over a difference of opinion. There are others.... We can agree to disagree without the mud slinging and rhetoric.
ETOPS240: I understand your point. I argue this same point with my mates at CX right now. What about those who joined during the IFALPA Recruitment Ban that was placed on CX (http://www.pilots.de/ubb/NonCGI/Foru.../000114.html)? We can go back and mention Cos94 as well..... And if you go back though my posts you'll see me equally of scathing of the weak-as-p!ss AOA. I also agree in part with 404Titan..... Times are different and what about learning from history (for a change!). How many times can an industry body be deliberate and determined to make the same self sacrificing mistakes????!!! I think you know my stance: enough is enough. I have my beliefs, others have theirs. Just because XXXXX person screwed things up back in year ???? Doesn't mean I or we have to do the same. But the worst part is we know what we are doing to our own industry and just don't give a damn. Instead (wannabe and active professional pilots) make excuses.
As far as the company introducing the DESO and DEFO paths again, you would not have to take the current package.
But you also had to work to get where you are now. And these cadets have to do the same.
I noticed you mentioned that the cadets will suffer because they are not earning what they could have earned for their retirement. But that's an apples to orange comparison.
Cheers for the reply...appreciated
Comedian: you are obviously chasing the iCadet program hoping for a position. That is your choice and of course your right. We can disagree, no big deal. Is this "THE BEST" deal going in the WORLD? With my experience I will offer the opinion and by far it is not. With GA time you become a free agent and not chained to CX. Of course other cadetships and airlines include bonds, but not to the crippling affect that CX does: not only by money but by hours that (are not) in the log book (P2X) and the financial situation. I mentioned a few such options from the top of my head in a previous post. I sincerely believe too many here blindly say this package is THE BEST because they have not done any thorough (REAL thorough) research into what is or could be available, let alone get off their tails, away from their computers and hit the road for a month or 2 at the very least. Just look at the questions people post on these iCadet threads! Case in point: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...-opinions.html
This guy wants "FACTS" and so turns to a RUMOUR network!!?? C'mon!!! SERIOUSLY? These guys demand respect for their "passion" as hopeful airline pilots? Give me a break!
A genuine question: Is this the BEST JOB or the QUICKEST AND EASIEST job to get into for low hour pilots trying for a jet airline job?
Yes, of course you can get by and eventually save some money on the iCadet package. But still I do not see it anyway as a LONG TERM decent retirement package AT ALL. Too many refuse to factor in life's hiccups and natural growth of family, kids, partner unemployed (1 x salary, a wife and a kid or 2 or 3?!!) Again.... LONNNGGG TERM is what I refer to.
It is too easy to label those arguing from a different platform to you as "trolls". The same could just as easily be said in reverse. As I've mentioned before, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Some make accusations or ask questions, get the answers and so change tact to other matters of irrelevance or demeanor. So, fire with fire.
You'll see one of the most informed guys on this thread is VoiceofReason. Quite rightly he has corrected me where my information was either outdated or just plain wrong. Flight100 can also post in a logical and decent manner over a difference of opinion. There are others.... We can agree to disagree without the mud slinging and rhetoric.
ETOPS240: I understand your point. I argue this same point with my mates at CX right now. What about those who joined during the IFALPA Recruitment Ban that was placed on CX (http://www.pilots.de/ubb/NonCGI/Foru.../000114.html)? We can go back and mention Cos94 as well..... And if you go back though my posts you'll see me equally of scathing of the weak-as-p!ss AOA. I also agree in part with 404Titan..... Times are different and what about learning from history (for a change!). How many times can an industry body be deliberate and determined to make the same self sacrificing mistakes????!!! I think you know my stance: enough is enough. I have my beliefs, others have theirs. Just because XXXXX person screwed things up back in year ???? Doesn't mean I or we have to do the same. But the worst part is we know what we are doing to our own industry and just don't give a damn. Instead (wannabe and active professional pilots) make excuses.
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ChinaBeached
As I said from the start, I dont really want to get pulled into the whole debate as, lets face it, the two sides will never agree.
I just want to point out that I NEVER referred to the older guys on here as "trolls", i even made mention in my last post that I thought it very unfair and unjust that you have been labelled as such.
You are correct, I am definitely considering the cadet scheme at Cathay and I honestly hope I get in. I have done my research and i know CX's offer isnt the best they have ever had, but, FOR ME, it is the best option out there.
My point lies with the fact that people on here are mainly concerned with their salary's depleting due to the cadet (which is a valid and reasonable concern) but these are the same people who signed the B Scale and killed the A Scale. Same principle applies.
Granted, someone on here pointed out that A Scale was a distant memory when they joined but failed to note that DEFO/DESO are a distant memory for us.
Any ways, I 100% agree with you that people are fools to sign up with the cadet program without looking at all options, asking the right questions and doing their research. I feel I have and CX to me is the best option for more reasons other than money.
I hope that you can understand this and that if we're ever on the same flight deck, I wont be persecuted for being an icadet?
I just want to point out that I NEVER referred to the older guys on here as "trolls", i even made mention in my last post that I thought it very unfair and unjust that you have been labelled as such.
You are correct, I am definitely considering the cadet scheme at Cathay and I honestly hope I get in. I have done my research and i know CX's offer isnt the best they have ever had, but, FOR ME, it is the best option out there.
My point lies with the fact that people on here are mainly concerned with their salary's depleting due to the cadet (which is a valid and reasonable concern) but these are the same people who signed the B Scale and killed the A Scale. Same principle applies.
Granted, someone on here pointed out that A Scale was a distant memory when they joined but failed to note that DEFO/DESO are a distant memory for us.
Any ways, I 100% agree with you that people are fools to sign up with the cadet program without looking at all options, asking the right questions and doing their research. I feel I have and CX to me is the best option for more reasons other than money.
I hope that you can understand this and that if we're ever on the same flight deck, I wont be persecuted for being an icadet?
It is more likely that the Captain would sit with the more experienced SO as they would get the better rest, not that safety really has much to do with it. A guy who has watched someone fly a 747 for three years is just the same as a guy who has watched someone fly a 747 for 8 months. I wonder what the passengers will think when its not uncommon for a CX flight for a large portion to be a guy with 250 hours sitting next to someone who has been actually flying the aircraft for about a year. The FAA has now mandated that you need at least 1500 hours to be an FO. Not saying the cadet scheme does not have its place in CX but for everyone to come from this scheme seems foolish. The FAA is the governing body of the most active aviation market, surely they are onto something.
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Personally, I have very strong reasons why I believe (know) that this iCadet deal is far from the best offer available. At the same time I won't be so arrogant as to assume your personal circumstances either. If you go into this eyes wide open - COMPLETELY wide open - then that is your decision & your right.
We will almost definitely never be on the same flightdeck together because as it stands I'll never work for CX under these terms - my personal choice & prerogative. The T's & C's are an impossible pill to swallow as well as the fact that 3+ years of vital seniority has been thrown down the crapper hence my thousands of hours, widebody jet time, multi crew, multi engine PIC time, etc, etc is worth squat against a kid with zero hours learning about lift & drag in Adelaide.
I can tell you from mates at CX that while they staunchly dislike the iCadet scheme there is no animosity on the flightdeck. The only angst & frustration arises when the iCadet (due severe lack of experience & training) challenges an "Aviation 101" call / decision or starts complaining about the deal that they signed up for & whole heartedly endorsed. In some eyes this extends to an endorsement of management decisions, practices & culture. It would be like me joining CX then whining that my seniority is below SO Young Gun despite our vast experience differences. I knew this when I signed & hence have no course to dare complain. Anyway, that's just the info I've been told about so in no way can I definitively say either way. Some may receive a hard time (rightfully or wrongfully) & others will never experience anything of the kind.
Just appreciate the why & how others are so angry & upset by the CPP as you hope they can appreciate your decision to take it. I sincerely hope you have exhausted all (global) options & have completely investigated the very long term consequences. If so, your choice & I trust you make the most of it if offered.
We will almost definitely never be on the same flightdeck together because as it stands I'll never work for CX under these terms - my personal choice & prerogative. The T's & C's are an impossible pill to swallow as well as the fact that 3+ years of vital seniority has been thrown down the crapper hence my thousands of hours, widebody jet time, multi crew, multi engine PIC time, etc, etc is worth squat against a kid with zero hours learning about lift & drag in Adelaide.
I can tell you from mates at CX that while they staunchly dislike the iCadet scheme there is no animosity on the flightdeck. The only angst & frustration arises when the iCadet (due severe lack of experience & training) challenges an "Aviation 101" call / decision or starts complaining about the deal that they signed up for & whole heartedly endorsed. In some eyes this extends to an endorsement of management decisions, practices & culture. It would be like me joining CX then whining that my seniority is below SO Young Gun despite our vast experience differences. I knew this when I signed & hence have no course to dare complain. Anyway, that's just the info I've been told about so in no way can I definitively say either way. Some may receive a hard time (rightfully or wrongfully) & others will never experience anything of the kind.
Just appreciate the why & how others are so angry & upset by the CPP as you hope they can appreciate your decision to take it. I sincerely hope you have exhausted all (global) options & have completely investigated the very long term consequences. If so, your choice & I trust you make the most of it if offered.
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ChinaBeached
Fair enough and I understand your frustrations. I appreciate your views and honestly hope that the deal you want comes your way.
If i had the opportunity to hold out the way you're able to, then I would and I admire your resilience.
Bets of Luck with it all
If i had the opportunity to hold out the way you're able to, then I would and I admire your resilience.
Bets of Luck with it all
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Sloppyjoe
The FAA has now mandated that you need at least 1500 hours to be an FO. Not saying the cadet scheme does not have its place in CX but for everyone to come from this scheme seems foolish. The FAA is the governing body of the most active aviation market, surely they are onto something.
I'm not suggesting that well trained cadets from Adelaide should be the only source of crew, but I don't think comparing Cx/HKCAD to the US/FAA domain is apples to apples.
404Titan - I completely understand your point, though I believe the key principles remain the same. Just my opinion, however.
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the rest of the world is waking up!
It is not just USA where more experience is being demanded. Now Australia has grounded Tiger until August 2011 due to recent incidents with low experienced crews on A320s. It seems likely CASA will demand a mentoring scheme for cadets on turboprops and not allow under 1500h on 737/A320 type a/c.
Hopefully all those experienced pilots (ex mil, instructors, GA operators, turboprop captains, test pilots, etc) will get a look in after years of being ignored
Recent accidents have shown that 500hours monitoring a FBW Autopilot does not endow an airline pilot with Sullenberger like skills. If your only previous flying was an approved 200h course with no real solo flight (Some schools now only do student mutual flying) or proper Upset recovery training then what have you to talk about in the cruise let alone what skills do you provide in the event of AP/ATH disconnect?
Hopefully all those experienced pilots (ex mil, instructors, GA operators, turboprop captains, test pilots, etc) will get a look in after years of being ignored
Recent accidents have shown that 500hours monitoring a FBW Autopilot does not endow an airline pilot with Sullenberger like skills. If your only previous flying was an approved 200h course with no real solo flight (Some schools now only do student mutual flying) or proper Upset recovery training then what have you to talk about in the cruise let alone what skills do you provide in the event of AP/ATH disconnect?
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Now Australia has grounded Tiger until August 2011 due to recent incidents with low experienced crews on A320s. It seems likely CASA will demand a mentoring scheme for cadets on turboprops and not allow under 1500h on 737/A320 type a/c.
Simply not true.
Secondly, BA, Cathay, Lufthansa, Air France, Singapore and many, many more have taken low houred cadets for decades 1500 hours or 5000 hours means very little.
1500 hours was implemented by the FAA to be seen to be doing something; a direct result of Colgan 3407. Oddly, both pilots had well over 1500 hours.
It's quality, not quantity.
Simply not true.
Secondly, BA, Cathay, Lufthansa, Air France, Singapore and many, many more have taken low houred cadets for decades 1500 hours or 5000 hours means very little.
1500 hours was implemented by the FAA to be seen to be doing something; a direct result of Colgan 3407. Oddly, both pilots had well over 1500 hours.
It's quality, not quantity.
Etops240,
"Secondly, BA, Cathay, Lufthansa, Air France, Singapore and many, many more have taken low houred cadets for decades 1500 hours or 5000 hours means very little."
Yes, but these were taken on as SO's not FO's.
"Secondly, BA, Cathay, Lufthansa, Air France, Singapore and many, many more have taken low houred cadets for decades 1500 hours or 5000 hours means very little."
Yes, but these were taken on as SO's not FO's.
Etops240,
You're getting a little silly. Lufthansa do take SO's, Qantas take SO's in addition to CX and SQ.
Your point that quality not quantity of hours counts I agree with but in the case of current cadet courses I think the training standard has dropped.
You're getting a little silly. Lufthansa do take SO's, Qantas take SO's in addition to CX and SQ.
Your point that quality not quantity of hours counts I agree with but in the case of current cadet courses I think the training standard has dropped.
