International Cadet scheme is dying! Welcome back to Expat Conditions
Flight100
I’d suggest that you have a talk to some of the 62 pilots that were accepted into CX as DESO’s in 2008 on the old expat T&C’s but because of the GFC that started that year were put into the hold pool. In 2010 they were then offered positions again but on local terms. All but one declined the offer not just once but twice after the company increased the offer with the “HK Pilot Allowance.
For those pilots that would have joined previously as DESO’s or DEFO’s it has changed a lot. All foreign pilots previously came in via the DE path. For them the package is now about 50% what it use to be. All pilots now come into CX via the “cadet” scheme irrespective of their experience.
Local pilots in CX for years have been trying to get the same T&C’s as us expat pilots. It helps their cause not one little bit having expats now willing to work here on local terms.
And you base this information on what? Your mythical SO friends? No SO here would have told you that BS. I think you have pulled that figure out of you’re a**e because the reality is that current SO’s are upgrading in 4 years and 1 month. With CX crewing their long haul flights by the end of the year with 1xCapt, 1xFO & 2xSO’s instead of the current 1xCapt, 2xFO’s & 1xSO what do you think this will do to upgrade times for SO’s? I will give you a hint. 6+ years.
You want to substantiate that comment. NY is expensive for the US but all the cost of living surveys clearly show HK is substantially more expensive than NY. Do a Google search if you don’t believe me.
With that being said, the current terms for cadet SO's, WHICH HAVE NOT CHANGED AT ALL as someone mentioned, are actually not too bad.
For those pilots that would have joined previously as DESO’s or DEFO’s it has changed a lot. All foreign pilots previously came in via the DE path. For them the package is now about 50% what it use to be. All pilots now come into CX via the “cadet” scheme irrespective of their experience.
Local pilots in CX for years have been trying to get the same T&C’s as us expat pilots. It helps their cause not one little bit having expats now willing to work here on local terms.
And for those thinking that SO time is 5 years, at the moment the current upgrade time from SO to FO is 3 years. People are in the process of upgrading as we speak.
And the cost of living in HK is the same as New York City and people live there for less.
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@404 Titan
First, when I said Cadet SO's, I was talking purely about Cadet SO's. Not DESO. Of course the DESO would not want that offer. It is definitely worse than the original. However, for the cadet scheme, which was mostly made up of people without experience, the offer got better with the Pilot allowance. If you look back at my post, I also agreed that if you had a lot of experience, then I could see why you would not want to accept the current terms.
Second, please don't be rude. We are all adults here and can respect each other, even if we don't agree with each other. There are no imaginary friends nor are there random numbers that I'm pulling out of any orifice in my body. This info comes from current second officers, who have only been in the company three years and are going for upgrades at the moment on their respective fleets.
Third, Yes HK does come up more expensive than New York. My point was that it is not impossible to live there on the current SO salary as many on here are leading people to believe. Yes anyone from the America's would have to scale back on their living space, as Hong Kong, like most asian cities, is very crowded. You will not be able to get the same size apartment for the same price. However, tax in HK will be cheaper. Either way there are pros and cons, but it's very manageable. SO's are living fine on the salary they are being offered. Again I'm speaking of SO's going through the Cadet Scheme without lots of prior experience.
Second, please don't be rude. We are all adults here and can respect each other, even if we don't agree with each other. There are no imaginary friends nor are there random numbers that I'm pulling out of any orifice in my body. This info comes from current second officers, who have only been in the company three years and are going for upgrades at the moment on their respective fleets.
Third, Yes HK does come up more expensive than New York. My point was that it is not impossible to live there on the current SO salary as many on here are leading people to believe. Yes anyone from the America's would have to scale back on their living space, as Hong Kong, like most asian cities, is very crowded. You will not be able to get the same size apartment for the same price. However, tax in HK will be cheaper. Either way there are pros and cons, but it's very manageable. SO's are living fine on the salary they are being offered. Again I'm speaking of SO's going through the Cadet Scheme without lots of prior experience.
Flight100
I can categorically tell you that these SO’s you speak of are not going for upgrade now after only three years in the company. A quick peruse of the seniority list confirms that those currently upgrading have been here more than four years. Those that have been in here for more than three years are currently being rostered for their upgrade assessment interviews. If they pass that obstacle then they will see their upgrade in about 6-12 months.
Regarding the tax issue, I suggest you read my post N°: 2947 in the linked post below. When you first join CX, i.e. the time you have the lowest income and hence the lowest disposable income, you will be slugged the largest tax burden as a percentage of your salary.
SO first year taxation bill
I can categorically tell you that these SO’s you speak of are not going for upgrade now after only three years in the company. A quick peruse of the seniority list confirms that those currently upgrading have been here more than four years. Those that have been in here for more than three years are currently being rostered for their upgrade assessment interviews. If they pass that obstacle then they will see their upgrade in about 6-12 months.
Regarding the tax issue, I suggest you read my post N°: 2947 in the linked post below. When you first join CX, i.e. the time you have the lowest income and hence the lowest disposable income, you will be slugged the largest tax burden as a percentage of your salary.
SO first year taxation bill
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404 Titan
Ah. I see. I misunderstood that part. I took upgrade interview to be the upgrade check. Didn't realize there would be another 6-12 months to go. Also, I want to thank you for explaining that. I've been reading some of the posts and I'm sure you can agree, its a lot easier to understand someones point without having to filter through the name calling/cursing/rudeness.
Also I'm familiar with the first year double taxation. And I agree, the first year, wont be all shiny and great. But it is definitely manageable. Even after the taxes, and saving up for the next year as well, it's still more than any pilot in the states starts with. As long as the Cadets know this when going in, which most seem to understand, they will do fine in Hong Kong.
I feel the same way that a lot of others feel. I couldn't accept the new offer and non-expat terms after going for the DESO position. The new terms are nowhere near as great as the previous. However, I also understand that Cathay is a business and will do whatever they can to save a buck. If it means doing away with DESO and adding to the Cadet scheme (opening it to Int'l cadets, adding the pilot bonus...etc...) then that's what they'll do. It is the same with EVERY airline. I also agree that any DESO/DEFO's should hold out for something better. With the expansion that Cathay has planned, and the amount of pilots that will be retiring in the coming years, I don't see how they will manage to train enough new SO's to fill the void. I feel that at some point Direct Entry will return.
What I don't like is the many Cathay Pilots or others that are chastising Cadet applicants for applying to Cathay. The name calling, the rudeness, telling the cadets that they will suffer greatly, that their career will be horrible, that they wont survive in Hong Kong, that they are all sellouts and idiots...etc...its unnecessary. For most pilots starting out in a regional carrier, the goal is to make it to a major/legacy carrier. The good part is that some young pilots are able to get their foot in the door at such an airline. Furthermore, the fact that Cathay will pay for the training makes it all the more appealing. Those applicants are not sell-outs because they saw a good opportunity and jumped on it. Until recently, most of the airlines here in the U.S. had many pilots on furlough. There was no hiring, and if there was, there was no way you were getting in with less than 500-1000 hrs (Turbine time was better). For many new pilots, there was no way they were getting a job. Even flight instructors were being furloughed and many other jobs (aerial photography, banner towing, sight seeing) weren't hiring. In their shoes, if I saw an offer like Cathay's, it would be a step in the right direction.
Well enough rambling from me. For those of you with hours, I agree, hold out. I think things will open up. Especially when all of the other airlines begin hiring. Cathay will have to step up their game. For those looking to start their careers, I wish you the best of luck.
Also I'm familiar with the first year double taxation. And I agree, the first year, wont be all shiny and great. But it is definitely manageable. Even after the taxes, and saving up for the next year as well, it's still more than any pilot in the states starts with. As long as the Cadets know this when going in, which most seem to understand, they will do fine in Hong Kong.
I feel the same way that a lot of others feel. I couldn't accept the new offer and non-expat terms after going for the DESO position. The new terms are nowhere near as great as the previous. However, I also understand that Cathay is a business and will do whatever they can to save a buck. If it means doing away with DESO and adding to the Cadet scheme (opening it to Int'l cadets, adding the pilot bonus...etc...) then that's what they'll do. It is the same with EVERY airline. I also agree that any DESO/DEFO's should hold out for something better. With the expansion that Cathay has planned, and the amount of pilots that will be retiring in the coming years, I don't see how they will manage to train enough new SO's to fill the void. I feel that at some point Direct Entry will return.
What I don't like is the many Cathay Pilots or others that are chastising Cadet applicants for applying to Cathay. The name calling, the rudeness, telling the cadets that they will suffer greatly, that their career will be horrible, that they wont survive in Hong Kong, that they are all sellouts and idiots...etc...its unnecessary. For most pilots starting out in a regional carrier, the goal is to make it to a major/legacy carrier. The good part is that some young pilots are able to get their foot in the door at such an airline. Furthermore, the fact that Cathay will pay for the training makes it all the more appealing. Those applicants are not sell-outs because they saw a good opportunity and jumped on it. Until recently, most of the airlines here in the U.S. had many pilots on furlough. There was no hiring, and if there was, there was no way you were getting in with less than 500-1000 hrs (Turbine time was better). For many new pilots, there was no way they were getting a job. Even flight instructors were being furloughed and many other jobs (aerial photography, banner towing, sight seeing) weren't hiring. In their shoes, if I saw an offer like Cathay's, it would be a step in the right direction.
Well enough rambling from me. For those of you with hours, I agree, hold out. I think things will open up. Especially when all of the other airlines begin hiring. Cathay will have to step up their game. For those looking to start their careers, I wish you the best of luck.
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"The goal is to make it to a major/legacy carrier. The good part is that some young pilots are able to get their foot in the door at such an airline."
The critical thing for applicants to realize is that if you get hired to a major first world airline, your contract conditions are improved with each new contract. If you are hired by Cathay Pacific, you are on an individual contract and it will never improve. If Cathay re-introduces DESO/DEFO conditions, you can be assured that anyone who joined as icadet will stay on that contract. iCadets entrants will NEVER receive the same conditions as anyone who joined earlier.
What are you worth?
Also, keep in mind that the opinions of the vocal few here are shared by many current CX pilots.
The critical thing for applicants to realize is that if you get hired to a major first world airline, your contract conditions are improved with each new contract. If you are hired by Cathay Pacific, you are on an individual contract and it will never improve. If Cathay re-introduces DESO/DEFO conditions, you can be assured that anyone who joined as icadet will stay on that contract. iCadets entrants will NEVER receive the same conditions as anyone who joined earlier.
What are you worth?
Also, keep in mind that the opinions of the vocal few here are shared by many current CX pilots.
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Understood. Cadet pilots will never be offered the same conditions as were available to DESO and DEFO applicants.
However (and please no one take this the wrong way) from a company standpoint, cadet pilots are not worth as much as a DESO or DEFO pilot, which is the reason the company will not offer them the same amount. They realize that someone who has lots of experience, will be worth/will ask for a better package. Hence the ex-pat package that was in place. But for as long as the Cadet SO program has been going (and only cadets which at one point were just HK locals) these conditions have been known. In fact for some of those cadets, the pay has actually increased.
From the view of any pilot with experience, being in the DESO pool, and then being offered the cadet program TT course (Transition Training 6 week course) with only local terms would be demeaning. Furthermore it decreases the value of the industry when people accept that. I know there are a lot of Cathay pilots who share that view and I can see why you would be upset at people with experience caving into Cathay and accepting those terms. And I'm sure the ones that have done that have their reasons.
From the view of someone with little experience, the job looks good. They know from the beginning they aren't ex-pats, they know the pay will be less than others, they know their base for some years will be in Hong Kong, and they realize the upgrade time. Yet, the company will train them and they will start out making three times as much as starting pilots in the U.S.
So it seems from the postings, the ones you are actually upset with are the DESO/DEFO poolies who are looking to join the cadet program and not so much the beginning pilot who is happy to join. Since the cadet program has been around since the late eighties, those applicants aren't changing anything for the other pilots, nor are they a threat. This is why I brought up the people who are constantly bashing innocent applicants for applying to what "looks like" a good job, and then afterwards saying they are only trying to help them "see the light". Calling them idiots, sell-outs, telling them that they should earn their hours, or that they are stupid for considering such terms, is not helping them in anyway.
For the Cathay guys, I know its a struggle. Hang in there.
However (and please no one take this the wrong way) from a company standpoint, cadet pilots are not worth as much as a DESO or DEFO pilot, which is the reason the company will not offer them the same amount. They realize that someone who has lots of experience, will be worth/will ask for a better package. Hence the ex-pat package that was in place. But for as long as the Cadet SO program has been going (and only cadets which at one point were just HK locals) these conditions have been known. In fact for some of those cadets, the pay has actually increased.
From the view of any pilot with experience, being in the DESO pool, and then being offered the cadet program TT course (Transition Training 6 week course) with only local terms would be demeaning. Furthermore it decreases the value of the industry when people accept that. I know there are a lot of Cathay pilots who share that view and I can see why you would be upset at people with experience caving into Cathay and accepting those terms. And I'm sure the ones that have done that have their reasons.
From the view of someone with little experience, the job looks good. They know from the beginning they aren't ex-pats, they know the pay will be less than others, they know their base for some years will be in Hong Kong, and they realize the upgrade time. Yet, the company will train them and they will start out making three times as much as starting pilots in the U.S.
So it seems from the postings, the ones you are actually upset with are the DESO/DEFO poolies who are looking to join the cadet program and not so much the beginning pilot who is happy to join. Since the cadet program has been around since the late eighties, those applicants aren't changing anything for the other pilots, nor are they a threat. This is why I brought up the people who are constantly bashing innocent applicants for applying to what "looks like" a good job, and then afterwards saying they are only trying to help them "see the light". Calling them idiots, sell-outs, telling them that they should earn their hours, or that they are stupid for considering such terms, is not helping them in anyway.
For the Cathay guys, I know its a struggle. Hang in there.
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AtoB....well put. The "minority" as some say refer only to the pin hole perspective of one or maybe two threads, where with the slightest "research" (alien term for too many) they will see many, many, many more people with experience in widebody internatonal airline ops, and especially that of CX. But a head ithe sand attitude circumvents all other logic. These opinions do not fit the mould of what they want or need to hear to justify their tunnel visioned approached.
Flight100:
I appreciate your willingness to have a decent debate on the topic. While guilty of stepping the comments into an unwanted realm at times you have to fight fire with fire. To name 3 posters:
blacklabel - he was aggressive in the extreme about defending the iCadet program and his choice to apply and chase it. Whereby upon the slightest bit of research into him found a quote of his disdain for cadetships as he believes they are a waste of time, produce poor pilots and are only there to make money for flying schools. When exposed he quickly deleted all posts on the thread and ran with his tail between his legs.
VFE - rants about the woeful state of the capitalist system of corporate greed, etc yet in the same breath is jumping to contribute to it. He argued aggressively for the iCadet program, but then a few posts afterwoard asks on pprune "What is the role of an SO at CX"? He argues for job he doesn't even know what it entails.
hihi - admits he's a "sell out" (his words), raises questions but failed to listen to the answers each time. He is happy to screw over the industry for outright self gain, greed and ignorant, pig headed self importance: his admission. (Read his first ever post).
These guys come armed with no facts but il informed desires to take a short cut to a career that screws the pilot body as a hole. On the other hand I have exchanged many PM's with guys debating the issues in a formal manner.
If I may, some of the points you mentioned:
The majority it seems do not.
The renumeration has been discussed many times, and well put earlier (above)' but no one wishes to see LONG term or other issues such as unplanned events that will massively impact a career, least of all financial situation. "What if" an iCadet needs to leave HK for any number of reasons? He will have to repay the forgivable loan, lose the tax paid on it, leave with a P2X rating that no airline or regulatory body will recognise. The iCadet is tied to CX not only for those 6 years but also until at least he or she has 1000 hrs on (a) type, so add perhaps another 2-3 years for that due time in the bunk not being recognised. PIC time required for other carriers? Circuits or a PPL / CPL solo navex in a C152 doesn't count. It is not a commercial operation. Total time is another min that airlines or agencies need: usually at least 3-5000 hrs.
Costs of living? Costs of groceries, a night out, a beer now and then, a new pair of jeans, taking a partner to dinner.......no one goes into these things in - least of all a small yet vitaly important thing like "quality of life" which can be detrimental to ones performance if we really get into things. Now, what about RETIREMENT and a NEST EGG? My calculations indicate if starting from scratch approximately 20 years to own your first property. 30% deposit is required for a downpayment, and no, the HKPLA is not counted as income by the bank so your capacity to take out a loan is based on raw salary, not the "also's". I am sitting at Jaspas restaurant right now in SoHo (on a lay over). A 530 sq ft apartment in Sheung Wan is for sale for $5.8 million HKD. Sure, that's Sheung Wan, but I'm just giving an example.
Th HKPLA is not factored to CPI changes or housing market increases. In HK the latest housing increase was officially 22%. So in year 1 you get $10k HKD, but 12 months later that $10k is worth 22% LESS. Let's assume a moderate increase of perhaps 8% a year..... Very soon that housing allowance begins to get less and less. Yes, it does increase with time and rank, but perhaps by the time they get the $36k HKD monthly allowance (what a 3rd year pilot gets on the previous terms!), that money is possibly only worth still what the original $10k was so many years ago. Not good if planning to expand for a family, etc.
Yes, of course you can "get by" but will you be able to comfortably retire, save and have life's little or large hiccups covered. No.
And at the expense of what - SAFETY. CX are looking to bring in 2 x SO's into the few make-up for ULH ops, hence reducing the experience level of the cockpit. Some will say that CX offers sound training. Many with experience will tell you precisely that CX is a checking airline, not a training airline. How many have read tha AF crash initial findings?
Precisely what I wrote not long ago. But, do you think guys like me and the many others with more than a little wetness behind the ears would take this package? Are those out their aware of CX' s present basings fiascos and the tax situation the based guys are potentially facing (double taxation!). While niave people take this present package there is no need for CX to increase it. If everyone stayed away then they would be forced to bring back the original package which was highly successful in attracting qualified and experienced pilots, and still bring CX massive profits.
But at what expense to the industry as a whole? Again, short sighted attitudes to fulfill eager, yet I'll educated or informed ideals. See, GA is "too hard" so they chase a quick fix solution and attitude. Yes, they get into an airline sooner, but their pay scale is severely stifled for the length of their career.. And also at the expense and pressure to present pilots at CX.
No! No! No! A bond (and that's what it is) is not "free". Try telling that to some of the kids who have already failed at Adelaide and have to repay the "free" training. Free when you are bound to them for so long due the rating you get, the money you will find have to save and the need to get hours and credentials that CX cannot provide should the need be to leave? Being bonded is far from "free", and this bond and effects are chains if anything.
Peaks and troughs. And I agree, the US market is extremely volatile. But how could the many, many, many, many of guys make it though this system prior to this illustrious CX scheme? Back in Oz circa 2004 (I think) Chieftan Capts were getting paid more than Turbo prop Capts because the airlines recruited like mad and the follow-on demanded this. And yes, it will go through troughs. No one said it was easy, but too many here need the easy way in it seems.
As a result of this iCadet scheme many have suffered. Those taking the job don't really care for the details, or the fine print, least of all the LONG TERM issues. These guys will suffer compared with what they could earn later down the track, the many like me who turned it down see a hard earned pursuit to join CX unable to be fullfilled due either personal choice and principles, or the true financial ramifications. We know what we deserve, what it takes and cannot accept being treated like this. Those who do not, cannot see this. In CRM terms, it's called "expectancy" whereby one inadvertently believes a predetermined scenario to force-fit what they incorrectly want to see or happen despite the evidence indicating to the contrary. The real facts or situation is blind to them.
Again, I'm happy to discuss the issues with you either here or via PM. It would be refreshing to converse with someone willing and able to do the same.
Flight100:
I appreciate your willingness to have a decent debate on the topic. While guilty of stepping the comments into an unwanted realm at times you have to fight fire with fire. To name 3 posters:
blacklabel - he was aggressive in the extreme about defending the iCadet program and his choice to apply and chase it. Whereby upon the slightest bit of research into him found a quote of his disdain for cadetships as he believes they are a waste of time, produce poor pilots and are only there to make money for flying schools. When exposed he quickly deleted all posts on the thread and ran with his tail between his legs.
VFE - rants about the woeful state of the capitalist system of corporate greed, etc yet in the same breath is jumping to contribute to it. He argued aggressively for the iCadet program, but then a few posts afterwoard asks on pprune "What is the role of an SO at CX"? He argues for job he doesn't even know what it entails.
hihi - admits he's a "sell out" (his words), raises questions but failed to listen to the answers each time. He is happy to screw over the industry for outright self gain, greed and ignorant, pig headed self importance: his admission. (Read his first ever post).
These guys come armed with no facts but il informed desires to take a short cut to a career that screws the pilot body as a hole. On the other hand I have exchanged many PM's with guys debating the issues in a formal manner.
If I may, some of the points you mentioned:
As long as the Cadets know this when going in, which most seem to understand, they will do fine in Hong Kong.
The renumeration has been discussed many times, and well put earlier (above)' but no one wishes to see LONG term or other issues such as unplanned events that will massively impact a career, least of all financial situation. "What if" an iCadet needs to leave HK for any number of reasons? He will have to repay the forgivable loan, lose the tax paid on it, leave with a P2X rating that no airline or regulatory body will recognise. The iCadet is tied to CX not only for those 6 years but also until at least he or she has 1000 hrs on (a) type, so add perhaps another 2-3 years for that due time in the bunk not being recognised. PIC time required for other carriers? Circuits or a PPL / CPL solo navex in a C152 doesn't count. It is not a commercial operation. Total time is another min that airlines or agencies need: usually at least 3-5000 hrs.
Costs of living? Costs of groceries, a night out, a beer now and then, a new pair of jeans, taking a partner to dinner.......no one goes into these things in - least of all a small yet vitaly important thing like "quality of life" which can be detrimental to ones performance if we really get into things. Now, what about RETIREMENT and a NEST EGG? My calculations indicate if starting from scratch approximately 20 years to own your first property. 30% deposit is required for a downpayment, and no, the HKPLA is not counted as income by the bank so your capacity to take out a loan is based on raw salary, not the "also's". I am sitting at Jaspas restaurant right now in SoHo (on a lay over). A 530 sq ft apartment in Sheung Wan is for sale for $5.8 million HKD. Sure, that's Sheung Wan, but I'm just giving an example.
Th HKPLA is not factored to CPI changes or housing market increases. In HK the latest housing increase was officially 22%. So in year 1 you get $10k HKD, but 12 months later that $10k is worth 22% LESS. Let's assume a moderate increase of perhaps 8% a year..... Very soon that housing allowance begins to get less and less. Yes, it does increase with time and rank, but perhaps by the time they get the $36k HKD monthly allowance (what a 3rd year pilot gets on the previous terms!), that money is possibly only worth still what the original $10k was so many years ago. Not good if planning to expand for a family, etc.
Yes, of course you can "get by" but will you be able to comfortably retire, save and have life's little or large hiccups covered. No.
I also understand that Cathay is a business and will do whatever they can to save a buck. If it means doing away with DESO and adding to the Cadet scheme (opening it to Int'l cadets, adding the pilot bonus...etc...) then that's what they'll do.
With the expansion that Cathay has planned, and the amount of pilots that will be retiring in the coming years, I don't see how they will manage to train enough new SO's to fill the void. I feel that at some point Direct Entry will return.
The good part is that some young pilots are able to get their foot in the door at such an airline.
Furthermore, the fact that Cathay will pay for the training makes it all the more appealing.
Until recently, most of the airlines here in the U.S. had many pilots on furlough. There was no hiring, and if there was, there was no way you were getting in with less than 500-1000 hrs (Turbine time was better). For many new pilots, there was no way they were getting a job. Even flight instructors were being furloughed and many other jobs (aerial photography, banner towing, sight seeing) weren't hiring.
As a result of this iCadet scheme many have suffered. Those taking the job don't really care for the details, or the fine print, least of all the LONG TERM issues. These guys will suffer compared with what they could earn later down the track, the many like me who turned it down see a hard earned pursuit to join CX unable to be fullfilled due either personal choice and principles, or the true financial ramifications. We know what we deserve, what it takes and cannot accept being treated like this. Those who do not, cannot see this. In CRM terms, it's called "expectancy" whereby one inadvertently believes a predetermined scenario to force-fit what they incorrectly want to see or happen despite the evidence indicating to the contrary. The real facts or situation is blind to them.
Again, I'm happy to discuss the issues with you either here or via PM. It would be refreshing to converse with someone willing and able to do the same.
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@ChinaBeached
I won't go into (yet again) some of the debates on living costs (20 years to buying your own place? Please!), but two things you said caught my eye and led me to believe you really don't have all of the facts yourself:
Wrong. It is. I know because I use it myself.
I don't know anyone in Adelaide who has failed and the company has come after them for the money. In fact, I don't know anyone FULL STOP who the Company has gone after for the training money. As far as I'm aware, the only way the Company will go after the money is if you leave voluntarily (i.e. not from just failing the course).
It's one thing to present one side of the story, which you are of course very entitled to do, but it's another thing entirely when you back up your argument with falsehoods.
I'm not sure, in fact, why you are still in this debate? You made your point clear a long time ago - i.e. that you turned down CX. What's your angle?
HKPLA is not counted as income by the bank
Try telling that to some of the kids who have already failed at Adelaide and have to repay the "free" training.
It's one thing to present one side of the story, which you are of course very entitled to do, but it's another thing entirely when you back up your argument with falsehoods.
I'm not sure, in fact, why you are still in this debate? You made your point clear a long time ago - i.e. that you turned down CX. What's your angle?
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Voice: Where wrong I'll happily admit it. I have friends at CX whereby the housing allowance was not able to be used to count as income to calaculate the size if the loan & capacity to repay it. If this has changed, then so be it.
I was not referring to to "buying" a place, I was referring to "owning" a place outright, ie bank loan paid off & 100% owned by you. The time factor I came up with is based on starting at HK with little in the bank at all (< $5k USD). I pointed out & mentioned Sheung Wan. Of course there are cheaper areas but I believe $5 million HKD is not an unreasonable figure for a purchase. For that price $1.5 million HKD is required by the bank, then interest on the loan, budget for interest rate increases (to not is risky speculation at least). Naturally, adjust as required for differing property prices. Still, a property for $3 million HKD requires $900,000 HKD deposit. Do-able? Yes. But put a time frame to "OWN" that property is my point.
As was told to me by CX HR over the phone, if you leave or are failed the bond is repayable. If that has changed then so be it, but not the information given to me. (I didn't use a rumour network to research facts when investigating the job & contract in it's entirety).
You're a HK resident so in all due respect the implications for you are different to an expat relocating, etc. But I agree COMETELY that expat or local ALL pilots at CX should be on the same renumeration.
In all sincerity I appreciate the corrections where needed.
My "angle" as you put it us to (like you) offer a difference of opinion to try and improve the package. If it does I would be in a position to take it, as would many others. No hidden agenda, but happy to be corrected if need be.
I was not referring to to "buying" a place, I was referring to "owning" a place outright, ie bank loan paid off & 100% owned by you. The time factor I came up with is based on starting at HK with little in the bank at all (< $5k USD). I pointed out & mentioned Sheung Wan. Of course there are cheaper areas but I believe $5 million HKD is not an unreasonable figure for a purchase. For that price $1.5 million HKD is required by the bank, then interest on the loan, budget for interest rate increases (to not is risky speculation at least). Naturally, adjust as required for differing property prices. Still, a property for $3 million HKD requires $900,000 HKD deposit. Do-able? Yes. But put a time frame to "OWN" that property is my point.
As was told to me by CX HR over the phone, if you leave or are failed the bond is repayable. If that has changed then so be it, but not the information given to me. (I didn't use a rumour network to research facts when investigating the job & contract in it's entirety).
You're a HK resident so in all due respect the implications for you are different to an expat relocating, etc. But I agree COMETELY that expat or local ALL pilots at CX should be on the same renumeration.
In all sincerity I appreciate the corrections where needed.
My "angle" as you put it us to (like you) offer a difference of opinion to try and improve the package. If it does I would be in a position to take it, as would many others. No hidden agenda, but happy to be corrected if need be.
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hihi - admits he's a "sell out" (his words), raises questions but failed to listen to the answers each time. He is happy to screw over the industry for outright self gain, greed and ignorant, pig headed self importance: his admission. (Read his first ever post).
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I was not referring to to "buying" a place, I was referring to "owning" a place outright, ie bank loan paid off & 100% owned by you.
I guess I don't expect to outright own a property in any shorter time if I was to go and work anywhere else. You?
My "angle" as you put it us to (like you) offer a difference of opinion to try and improve the package
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hihi... We've been through this all before! "Accusations" vs "Questions" vs "Facts", so now we may even introduce "Ridicule" (not that it matters since your grasp of basic comprehension has been found wanting time & again, post after post). So, where did I "abuse" you in that quote of mine? I simply used you as an example of the iCadet wannabe posting here.
To quote yourself:
And the status or location you proudly display as
You wrote it. I repeated it. (Accusation coming: IDIOT).
Voice:
I have many friends at CX on the B-Scale package. (I know other A-Scalers but we'll leave that out of this equation, agreed?) The longest B-Scale guy on CoS99 has "purchased" 2 properties & is very far from owning them. He has a wife & 2 kids that factors into the expenditure. If you know of people "OWNING" 5 or 6 properties within 15 years then they are indeed very shrewd investors. I don't deny what you say, I have no reason or proof. Owning vs purchasing is the difference: but to own (hard to believe) least all purchase 1 x property every 3 years is an achievement in deed.
You are welcome to question my research. I received it from CX HR, the contract itself as well as colleagues presently at CX. Your information is by far more first hand than mine so again, where I'm wrong I'll accept it.
I never said I would not work for CX. I said I could not accept this iCadet package. If I was rightfully offered the terms & conditions I interviewed for, then I would. And to quote MC at the greeting / briefing:
"The expat housing package is designed as such because CX strongly believe you should not suffer a loss of living conditions when coming to work for us." My how that corporate slogan has changed.
What else is out there? Off the top of my head, the Etihad cadetship, and other narrow body positions in China and Sth East Asia and Eastern European states, and GA time in PNG and Africa..... Regional airlines whereby with approx 1000 hrs & type rating (A320 or B73NG mainly) a RHS position is available for a non taxable salary of >$11k USD per month. LionAir is but another operator (& no, not the best guys to work for, but is CX's treatment better?) where they are SCREAMING for rated 737 drivers due their already idle aircraft and 739 deliveries pending. They'll give you a RHS job, better money and better hours to use for better jobs down the track: a far shorter time than will a P2X rating. At least with such hours & credentials a pilot is a free agent, unlike the CX iCadet offer.
If & where my information is incomplete then correct it, as I'm sure you will. But like you I write from research & personal facts given to me by CX itself & those there as SO's, FO's & (Base) Capts. With every month that goes by that gets more outdated I'll admit. One thing is obvious, it's a damn sight more research & knowledge than sideline wannabes argue with here.
Voice, if you were on the original HK National package (zero housing) then the HKPLA is of course a better package. But many will & do believe you guys were short changed in the grandest of scales.
To quote yourself:
If you think for a second that i am going to sit on my hands and wait for conditions to improve, just so you can sleep a little better at night knowing your contract is supposedly safer, then you are sadly mistaken. Go on, call me names, tell me i am a sell out - it changes nothing.
selling out
Voice:
I have many friends at CX on the B-Scale package. (I know other A-Scalers but we'll leave that out of this equation, agreed?) The longest B-Scale guy on CoS99 has "purchased" 2 properties & is very far from owning them. He has a wife & 2 kids that factors into the expenditure. If you know of people "OWNING" 5 or 6 properties within 15 years then they are indeed very shrewd investors. I don't deny what you say, I have no reason or proof. Owning vs purchasing is the difference: but to own (hard to believe) least all purchase 1 x property every 3 years is an achievement in deed.
You are welcome to question my research. I received it from CX HR, the contract itself as well as colleagues presently at CX. Your information is by far more first hand than mine so again, where I'm wrong I'll accept it.
I never said I would not work for CX. I said I could not accept this iCadet package. If I was rightfully offered the terms & conditions I interviewed for, then I would. And to quote MC at the greeting / briefing:
"The expat housing package is designed as such because CX strongly believe you should not suffer a loss of living conditions when coming to work for us." My how that corporate slogan has changed.
What else is out there? Off the top of my head, the Etihad cadetship, and other narrow body positions in China and Sth East Asia and Eastern European states, and GA time in PNG and Africa..... Regional airlines whereby with approx 1000 hrs & type rating (A320 or B73NG mainly) a RHS position is available for a non taxable salary of >$11k USD per month. LionAir is but another operator (& no, not the best guys to work for, but is CX's treatment better?) where they are SCREAMING for rated 737 drivers due their already idle aircraft and 739 deliveries pending. They'll give you a RHS job, better money and better hours to use for better jobs down the track: a far shorter time than will a P2X rating. At least with such hours & credentials a pilot is a free agent, unlike the CX iCadet offer.
If & where my information is incomplete then correct it, as I'm sure you will. But like you I write from research & personal facts given to me by CX itself & those there as SO's, FO's & (Base) Capts. With every month that goes by that gets more outdated I'll admit. One thing is obvious, it's a damn sight more research & knowledge than sideline wannabes argue with here.
Voice, if you were on the original HK National package (zero housing) then the HKPLA is of course a better package. But many will & do believe you guys were short changed in the grandest of scales.
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@ ChinaBeached
Hey there. Sorry for taking so long to write back. Hope all is going well with you.
I get what you are saying on some of the points and it made me think about a few things as if I were in the iCadet's shoes. I asked a friend who recently went through the program and he pointed out that a few people did have concerns about the 6 year bond that is now in place. It wasn't there when they started as cadets, but was recently introduced. However, the bond is for the total amount. Therefore, anyone in a short course or Transition course will get the difference paid back to them when they get to Hong Kong. Therefore, for those courses, paying it off wouldn't be as difficult. Also, no one has to pay back the bond if they have not left Cathay of their own will. Anyone terminated by Cathay or having to stop course due to issues beyond their control is not held by the bond.
I have also had some thoughts about the replacement of a FO with 2 SO's on ULH trips. I did agree that it does decrease the experience in the cockpit in some ways, but I am curious how Cathay is going to work this. I'm wondering if they will put a higher seniority SO with a newer SO (show him/her the ropes). Surely, either the Capt or the FO will have to be in the flight deck at all times. I do wonder how this will pan out in the long run.
As far as the company introducing the DESO and DEFO paths again, you would not have to take the current package. The iCadet program was not made for applicants with a lot of hours, nor is it the replacement to the DESO/DEFO program. Rather, it is an add-on to the already running (and successful) local cadet program. There were many international cadets waiting to apply to Cathay and the company knew this. Most of the iCadets do not have nearly enough hours to meet DESO/DEFO requirements. I honestly believe Cathay offered this to the DESO poolies just to see if anyone would bite. Not because they actually thought someone would take it. In other words, anyone with DESO hours who accepted the iCadet program was just a bonus for the company. This is what I meant by an Airline doing something to "save a buck".
And yes, the aviation industry is cyclical. But I don't see International cadets applying at Cathay as someone looking for the "easy way out". As you stated, this industry (especially in the states) has many highs and lows. Sadly its been in the low for quite awhile, and even though things are starting to turn for the better, many pilots still do not have jobs. And its not that GA is too hard, its that hiring is limited. But in the same fashion that many pilots have their job today, these cadets are looking at an opportunity and going for it. Many pilots here are looking overseas for jobs at the moment (although it looks like the airlines are gearing back up for massive hiring). I can agree that it would be a shame if the cadets were blindly applying for Cathay without thinking about their future at this airline.
I noticed you mentioned that the cadets will suffer because they are not earning what they could have earned for their retirement. But that's an apples to orange comparison. They would not have had the same experience or hours that someone like you would have had. I agree, for an experienced pilot such as yourself, this deal is definitely not great as you have a higher worth as well as higher expectations. But you also had to work to get where you are now. And these cadets have to do the same. But there are many cadets who have gone through this program already and from talking with a few, none seem to be suffering a great deal. The biggest problem I hear is that the higher the pay goes, the more they want to spend money.
But we all have that problem.
I would also think that if cadets were having such a hard time once they joined Cathay, this program would have been talked down years ago. There are current captains at Cathay who were once Cadets and they seem to be doing just fine. I had the chance to speak with one and life seems to be fine.
All in all, it is a gamble. But joining any airline is a risk. You are correct in saying that the cadets need to do their homework and make sure this is what they want to do. Again, the cadet program itself has not changed drastically since its conception in the late 80s. Actually it has gotten better with the new raises and allowance given. I think the confusion lies with DEFO/DESO being offered the choice to join the cadet program. Again, I think Cathay took a stab in the dark to see who would jump at the opportunity. Kind of a last ditch effort to buy time before being forced to restart DESO/DEFO entries.
Once again thanks for taking the time to explain your side. Your post did give me a few things to think about. Happy Flying.
I get what you are saying on some of the points and it made me think about a few things as if I were in the iCadet's shoes. I asked a friend who recently went through the program and he pointed out that a few people did have concerns about the 6 year bond that is now in place. It wasn't there when they started as cadets, but was recently introduced. However, the bond is for the total amount. Therefore, anyone in a short course or Transition course will get the difference paid back to them when they get to Hong Kong. Therefore, for those courses, paying it off wouldn't be as difficult. Also, no one has to pay back the bond if they have not left Cathay of their own will. Anyone terminated by Cathay or having to stop course due to issues beyond their control is not held by the bond.
I have also had some thoughts about the replacement of a FO with 2 SO's on ULH trips. I did agree that it does decrease the experience in the cockpit in some ways, but I am curious how Cathay is going to work this. I'm wondering if they will put a higher seniority SO with a newer SO (show him/her the ropes). Surely, either the Capt or the FO will have to be in the flight deck at all times. I do wonder how this will pan out in the long run.
As far as the company introducing the DESO and DEFO paths again, you would not have to take the current package. The iCadet program was not made for applicants with a lot of hours, nor is it the replacement to the DESO/DEFO program. Rather, it is an add-on to the already running (and successful) local cadet program. There were many international cadets waiting to apply to Cathay and the company knew this. Most of the iCadets do not have nearly enough hours to meet DESO/DEFO requirements. I honestly believe Cathay offered this to the DESO poolies just to see if anyone would bite. Not because they actually thought someone would take it. In other words, anyone with DESO hours who accepted the iCadet program was just a bonus for the company. This is what I meant by an Airline doing something to "save a buck".
And yes, the aviation industry is cyclical. But I don't see International cadets applying at Cathay as someone looking for the "easy way out". As you stated, this industry (especially in the states) has many highs and lows. Sadly its been in the low for quite awhile, and even though things are starting to turn for the better, many pilots still do not have jobs. And its not that GA is too hard, its that hiring is limited. But in the same fashion that many pilots have their job today, these cadets are looking at an opportunity and going for it. Many pilots here are looking overseas for jobs at the moment (although it looks like the airlines are gearing back up for massive hiring). I can agree that it would be a shame if the cadets were blindly applying for Cathay without thinking about their future at this airline.
I noticed you mentioned that the cadets will suffer because they are not earning what they could have earned for their retirement. But that's an apples to orange comparison. They would not have had the same experience or hours that someone like you would have had. I agree, for an experienced pilot such as yourself, this deal is definitely not great as you have a higher worth as well as higher expectations. But you also had to work to get where you are now. And these cadets have to do the same. But there are many cadets who have gone through this program already and from talking with a few, none seem to be suffering a great deal. The biggest problem I hear is that the higher the pay goes, the more they want to spend money.
But we all have that problem. I would also think that if cadets were having such a hard time once they joined Cathay, this program would have been talked down years ago. There are current captains at Cathay who were once Cadets and they seem to be doing just fine. I had the chance to speak with one and life seems to be fine.
All in all, it is a gamble. But joining any airline is a risk. You are correct in saying that the cadets need to do their homework and make sure this is what they want to do. Again, the cadet program itself has not changed drastically since its conception in the late 80s. Actually it has gotten better with the new raises and allowance given. I think the confusion lies with DEFO/DESO being offered the choice to join the cadet program. Again, I think Cathay took a stab in the dark to see who would jump at the opportunity. Kind of a last ditch effort to buy time before being forced to restart DESO/DEFO entries.
Once again thanks for taking the time to explain your side. Your post did give me a few things to think about. Happy Flying.
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to the "trolls"
I think its funny how you are all having a go at the people signing up for the cadet programme because it hurts your salary, yet, you all gladly signed the B Scale package and ending the A Scale... surely your actions had the same affect on the A Scale pilots as Cadets are having on yours?
Your signing and agreeing to B Scale ended the A scale for good... just like the Cadet will end your pay packet.
Times are changing... Maybe its time to move on? Stop being the Pot who called the kettle black?
Your signing and agreeing to B Scale ended the A scale for good... just like the Cadet will end your pay packet.
Times are changing... Maybe its time to move on? Stop being the Pot who called the kettle black?
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the Comedian,
I think you made a fair point there. Thing is that one sometimes
can't help but getting the impression that not all the cadets are fully aware of what they sign up for, CX is not exactly famous for beeing open about what exactly to expect during the interviews.. It's simply no fun to fly with frustrated SO's..
However, if you are indeed fully aware of the conditions applicable for you (until the rest of your career with CX), no hard feelings from my side, good luck to you.
I think you made a fair point there. Thing is that one sometimes
can't help but getting the impression that not all the cadets are fully aware of what they sign up for, CX is not exactly famous for beeing open about what exactly to expect during the interviews.. It's simply no fun to fly with frustrated SO's..
However, if you are indeed fully aware of the conditions applicable for you (until the rest of your career with CX), no hard feelings from my side, good luck to you.
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711
I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone or get involved in this debate...and i am very grateful for your response and the way it was said, shows you have a tremendous character.
I am just tired of people bagging the cadet scheme when its really the only option WE have at the moment. I know its not the best deal there, but, its the only one.
I wish that the "trolls", as they are so unfairly called, would see and understand that this is whats on the table for us. Just like you guys had b-scale on the table for you instead of A Scale.
I wish i would be able to hold out till better contracts came up, but to say "in a matter of months" like many have is crazy when if you read past posts, they've been saying that for years... and still no results.
If anything, contracts will become worse. Eg a scale to b scale, b scale to free cadet, free cadet to 6 year bond cadet etc etc... why run the risk of holding out for the better deal when history dictates it wont come?
I appreciate the "trolls" and what they say on here, they offer invaluable insight and a very different point of view which is great when weighing up options. But certain people who name and shame and degrade others for trying to get into CX all because it "damages their contracts and the industry" need to take a good look in the mirror and realise thats exactly what they did to the A-Scale. Why didnt they old out for a few more months and get the A-Scale that would have come if they held out? Yet, they jumped at the opportunity to sign a downgraded contract.
Anyways, It is what it is now... no amount of bitching and whining and name calling on here will ever change that. Cadet is here for a very long time and its the way it will be.
I agree 100% with you 711, they need to be acutely aware of what they are signing up for and what it means for them in the long run... and if they do that and still sign up, good on them, wish them well, encourage and help them, shape them to be pilots that you want to fly with. Dont hate on them cos they took the best they could get at the time.
I am just tired of people bagging the cadet scheme when its really the only option WE have at the moment. I know its not the best deal there, but, its the only one.
I wish that the "trolls", as they are so unfairly called, would see and understand that this is whats on the table for us. Just like you guys had b-scale on the table for you instead of A Scale.
I wish i would be able to hold out till better contracts came up, but to say "in a matter of months" like many have is crazy when if you read past posts, they've been saying that for years... and still no results.
If anything, contracts will become worse. Eg a scale to b scale, b scale to free cadet, free cadet to 6 year bond cadet etc etc... why run the risk of holding out for the better deal when history dictates it wont come?
I appreciate the "trolls" and what they say on here, they offer invaluable insight and a very different point of view which is great when weighing up options. But certain people who name and shame and degrade others for trying to get into CX all because it "damages their contracts and the industry" need to take a good look in the mirror and realise thats exactly what they did to the A-Scale. Why didnt they old out for a few more months and get the A-Scale that would have come if they held out? Yet, they jumped at the opportunity to sign a downgraded contract.
Anyways, It is what it is now... no amount of bitching and whining and name calling on here will ever change that. Cadet is here for a very long time and its the way it will be.
I agree 100% with you 711, they need to be acutely aware of what they are signing up for and what it means for them in the long run... and if they do that and still sign up, good on them, wish them well, encourage and help them, shape them to be pilots that you want to fly with. Dont hate on them cos they took the best they could get at the time.
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b scale to free cadet, free cadet to 6 year bond cadet
theCOMEDIAN
Just like iCads and local cadets originally had no “Hong Kong Pilot Allowance” and no “Children’s Education Allowance (Rank FO and above)” but now they do. Terms and conditions have only improved for cadets at CX in the last 18-24 months, i.e. since the iCad program has been in existence. It’s a fact CX is finding it incredibly difficult to attract enough suitable bums to keep all the new cockpit seats warm. FOP department realise there is a huge problem but management at board level “currently” aren’t listening. It’s only a matter of time before aircraft are parked against the fence due to lack of crew. When this happens just watch the T&C’s improve. As I have said it has already happened twice now in the last 18-24 months. So to say T&C’s only decrease is BS. Peoples overwhelming lack of interest in what CX has to offer has forced them sit up and pay attention twice.
For the record “A” scale hasn’t been on offer since 1993. Out of 2700 pilots only 200 are still on “A” scale. For the vast majority of CX pilots, “A” scale was all but a distant memory when they joined. I wouldn’t call “B” scale expat terms a distant memory.
Just like iCads and local cadets originally had no “Hong Kong Pilot Allowance” and no “Children’s Education Allowance (Rank FO and above)” but now they do. Terms and conditions have only improved for cadets at CX in the last 18-24 months, i.e. since the iCad program has been in existence. It’s a fact CX is finding it incredibly difficult to attract enough suitable bums to keep all the new cockpit seats warm. FOP department realise there is a huge problem but management at board level “currently” aren’t listening. It’s only a matter of time before aircraft are parked against the fence due to lack of crew. When this happens just watch the T&C’s improve. As I have said it has already happened twice now in the last 18-24 months. So to say T&C’s only decrease is BS. Peoples overwhelming lack of interest in what CX has to offer has forced them sit up and pay attention twice.
For the record “A” scale hasn’t been on offer since 1993. Out of 2700 pilots only 200 are still on “A” scale. For the vast majority of CX pilots, “A” scale was all but a distant memory when they joined. I wouldn’t call “B” scale expat terms a distant memory.