Why I knocked back Cathay
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updated package for international cadets?
I'm heading to Cathay for my Stage 2-3 soon. Does someone know the updated starting salary and benefits (MPF, education allowance for children, etc.) for international cadets? Hope to hear from guys who have just finished training in FTA.
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Agreed
I too, had an offer several years ago and have joined the Canadian Air Force, not as a pilot but a navigator (now called Combat Systems Officer).
You description of the duties as an SO, ie flight management duties, is exactly what my current job entails, but the thing with the military is you'll always be paid more and will eventually move up the ladder.
I turned the offer down on another issue: pension. I don't remember what the package was, but it is not perpetual. The military pension is perpetual and is 70% of my 5 highest grossing years. Added with the special allowances and strict crew rest requirements, I would say Cathay is a crappy deal IF you're a local boy, ie HKID or Birth Certificate.
I have to say I was glad I didn't join CX...as I'm probably making the same as an FO, as a student. I'll be promoted and receive a raise after I earn my wings.
The cost of a ATPL with hours might be ugly, but like a cell phone deal, you'll end up losing more money on a scheme like this because CX is here to make money for their shareholders, not its employees.
Take Care
You description of the duties as an SO, ie flight management duties, is exactly what my current job entails, but the thing with the military is you'll always be paid more and will eventually move up the ladder.
I turned the offer down on another issue: pension. I don't remember what the package was, but it is not perpetual. The military pension is perpetual and is 70% of my 5 highest grossing years. Added with the special allowances and strict crew rest requirements, I would say Cathay is a crappy deal IF you're a local boy, ie HKID or Birth Certificate.
I have to say I was glad I didn't join CX...as I'm probably making the same as an FO, as a student. I'll be promoted and receive a raise after I earn my wings.
The cost of a ATPL with hours might be ugly, but like a cell phone deal, you'll end up losing more money on a scheme like this because CX is here to make money for their shareholders, not its employees.
Take Care
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Based on CoS99, FO monthly salary = $70,165. I have no idea how this is adjusted now owing to CPI and the latest CoS08 as well as recent pay negotiations but I am quite sure it is approx 4% better than that (perhaps in the ballpark of $73,000+).
I have the housing allowance package as well but difficult to interpret at a glance. My friends are receiving (as FO's and SFO's) between $55-62k per month.
We are offered an FO salary of $72,270 per month (therefore much the same I'm assuming as CoS99/08 FO). But what of the DETAILS on the offer we have received, ie CPI influences, etc? Our housing at $14k. Taking only housing into account it's a reduction from $55k (best case!) to $14k = $41k per month. Now, multiply that kind of renumeration loss over a 10 year period then that is why I see the package offered as 30% of what we were successful for back in 08.
Now multiply that again to the fixed housing allowance offered to us over more years to come..... Get the picture?
For me, I will be earning from 50% less than I am now for a period in excess of 12 years if I accept the deal, obviously that 50% figure reduces as time goes by till parity after a min of 12 years. So, adding up that loss over 12 years (salary alone, not just cost of living in HK) equals A LOT.
CX are incapable of offering long term job satisfaction. Their recent past is testimony to ruthless and illegal means to chase profits. Just ask any CX pilot about their job as they saw it when they began to how it is today and how they see it in the future.
I don't want to be a part of accepting and therefore agreeing to management's lowering of the terms and conditions further. Integrity isn't for sale.
I have the housing allowance package as well but difficult to interpret at a glance. My friends are receiving (as FO's and SFO's) between $55-62k per month.
We are offered an FO salary of $72,270 per month (therefore much the same I'm assuming as CoS99/08 FO). But what of the DETAILS on the offer we have received, ie CPI influences, etc? Our housing at $14k. Taking only housing into account it's a reduction from $55k (best case!) to $14k = $41k per month. Now, multiply that kind of renumeration loss over a 10 year period then that is why I see the package offered as 30% of what we were successful for back in 08.
Now multiply that again to the fixed housing allowance offered to us over more years to come..... Get the picture?
For me, I will be earning from 50% less than I am now for a period in excess of 12 years if I accept the deal, obviously that 50% figure reduces as time goes by till parity after a min of 12 years. So, adding up that loss over 12 years (salary alone, not just cost of living in HK) equals A LOT.
CX are incapable of offering long term job satisfaction. Their recent past is testimony to ruthless and illegal means to chase profits. Just ask any CX pilot about their job as they saw it when they began to how it is today and how they see it in the future.
I don't want to be a part of accepting and therefore agreeing to management's lowering of the terms and conditions further. Integrity isn't for sale.
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I have a friend who just turned down the current offer.
He interviewed for DESO back in 2008 and has been waiting for a course date since. In the fall he was offered the zero housing deal and politely declined. Then this week they called to offer him the "new deal" and said that it was the final offer.
He was upset by the words FINAL and really contemplated accepting as he really wants to come to CX. In the end, he saw through the smoke and mirrors and again, politely declined.
I hope more do the same. If enough do there will be more phone calls in the future for "FINAL FINAL" offers on better terms.
Show some integrity boys and girls!
He interviewed for DESO back in 2008 and has been waiting for a course date since. In the fall he was offered the zero housing deal and politely declined. Then this week they called to offer him the "new deal" and said that it was the final offer.
He was upset by the words FINAL and really contemplated accepting as he really wants to come to CX. In the end, he saw through the smoke and mirrors and again, politely declined.
I hope more do the same. If enough do there will be more phone calls in the future for "FINAL FINAL" offers on better terms.
Show some integrity boys and girls!
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I turned down Cathay
Because when I attend the selection, I would have to pay for it.
And pay for the airfares.
If I need to stay somewhere during the selection, I would have to pay for it.
And I prefer to pay for my training upfront and still be bonded.
That way I can still live in my jingoist country in a shed for obvious reasons and bleat how great my own country's system is.
So it turns out that I turned down Cathay because I was never offered the spot and instead like most sour looser's had to come on pprune because I had priapism and want people to know that.
Ps another waste of time thread.
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After crunching the numbers and trying to make them look good to please my wife and convince myself that it was an ok deal........ I just couldn't manage it.
I also politely declined the offer today. (The HR people are great and they understand completely.)
Very dissapointed as I to have wanted to join Cx for a very long time.
All the best to you out there, whatever decision you make.
I also politely declined the offer today. (The HR people are great and they understand completely.)
Very dissapointed as I to have wanted to join Cx for a very long time.
All the best to you out there, whatever decision you make.
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Donald,
Before using such big words remember to get the simple ones correct. (loser) It seems the blood had rushed to the wrong part of your body.
You are on the Wannabe forum in case you hadn't noticed. This thread is most certainly not a waste of time. For those guys/girls on the hold file, like myself it's a legitimate way of finding out what we collectively as a group project and the likelihood of any future offer. I'm sure most single guys and girls will take it however. I would seriously consider it if I was 10 years younger and single. For those of us with a family and a mortgage it's not the airline job we'd been aspiring to.
As for the Jetstar cadetship anyone claiming they're turning down Cx's deal for that are simply talking sh&^. That still however does not make this offer right.
Bunghole.
Before using such big words remember to get the simple ones correct. (loser) It seems the blood had rushed to the wrong part of your body.
You are on the Wannabe forum in case you hadn't noticed. This thread is most certainly not a waste of time. For those guys/girls on the hold file, like myself it's a legitimate way of finding out what we collectively as a group project and the likelihood of any future offer. I'm sure most single guys and girls will take it however. I would seriously consider it if I was 10 years younger and single. For those of us with a family and a mortgage it's not the airline job we'd been aspiring to.
As for the Jetstar cadetship anyone claiming they're turning down Cx's deal for that are simply talking sh&^. That still however does not make this offer right.
Bunghole.
Last edited by bunghole; 17th Mar 2011 at 10:19.
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ChinaBeached
Great post...I am with you 100%...I have one question and hope someone can chime in and answer for me....WHERE IS THE AOA....why can't they come out and let everyone know what they are about to sign...why they are hiding...Show eveyone the truth in black&white. I am sure in 6 months they will change the T&C again...
Great post...I am with you 100%...I have one question and hope someone can chime in and answer for me....WHERE IS THE AOA....why can't they come out and let everyone know what they are about to sign...why they are hiding...Show eveyone the truth in black&white. I am sure in 6 months they will change the T&C again...
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Cheers.... But am only stating what anyone considering a life changing decision should consider.
First let me start by stating I firmly believe in a pilot solidarity and unity via an organised representative structure. I (like most of us I assume) have been following the CX saga religiously via GMO, DFO and AOA updates, as well as very close friends at CX disgusted at what it's become. Pilot solidarity? Has it ever existed?!!!! As strong and alive as is the Tooth Fairy.
The AOA
The same body who put DEFO recruitment to the vote, was all but unanimously voted against, then approved it anyway?
The same body who allowed management to laugh them off for how many years without pay increase remotely close to CPI influences? (While the DFO, etc enjoyed pay rises of >65%!?)
The same body who threatened Contract Compliance in a desperate effort to get management to meet for pay negotiations, then had to work out and brief all on what CC for about 3 months?
The same body who settled (via their own recommendation and member majority vote) on approximately 1/3 of the increases they were "demanding" and agreed to not use CC as a means of pay dispute for the term of the agreement?
The same pilot body watching this fiasco of basings issues and tax drag on and on and on and on.....
The same pilot body openly discussing the CEP issue as C or D scale yet sat back and watched it happen?
The same body who approx 10 days-2 weeks after settling the latest pay negotiations with management saw the carpet pulled from under them via the Air HK Freight situation? And what are they doing about it now to protect their members' jobs? Horse bolted - again?
The same body who sat back and watched the likes of us overlooked for recruitment (true we were/are non members and not working for CX as such) in the place of naive others accepting this C/D scale? We were ASSURED by CX that we would be called in the order of success at Stage 2 of the process.
The same pilot body whereby SO's are desperately seeking to be elected to office because they are sick of the senior A and B scalers sitting back and protecting their own interests? Age 60 ring a bell anyone??
Where's the AOA? Probably revising a "plan of action" to be explored, written about, complained about till voted on by 2020.
So, who should we put faith in to protect our career? CX Management or AOA? Who's track record is better?
"If" I did join CX yes I would join the AOA. Part of the problem vs part of the solution. The exact same reason why I refuse to go through this insult to be reinterviewed for a job I never applied for.
Now "if" we all did stand together and refuse this (as we did but one the last time) then perhaps we could teach the AOA a lesson: from pilots not even at CX.
First let me start by stating I firmly believe in a pilot solidarity and unity via an organised representative structure. I (like most of us I assume) have been following the CX saga religiously via GMO, DFO and AOA updates, as well as very close friends at CX disgusted at what it's become. Pilot solidarity? Has it ever existed?!!!! As strong and alive as is the Tooth Fairy.
The AOA
The same body who put DEFO recruitment to the vote, was all but unanimously voted against, then approved it anyway?
The same body who allowed management to laugh them off for how many years without pay increase remotely close to CPI influences? (While the DFO, etc enjoyed pay rises of >65%!?)
The same body who threatened Contract Compliance in a desperate effort to get management to meet for pay negotiations, then had to work out and brief all on what CC for about 3 months?
The same body who settled (via their own recommendation and member majority vote) on approximately 1/3 of the increases they were "demanding" and agreed to not use CC as a means of pay dispute for the term of the agreement?
The same pilot body watching this fiasco of basings issues and tax drag on and on and on and on.....
The same pilot body openly discussing the CEP issue as C or D scale yet sat back and watched it happen?
The same body who approx 10 days-2 weeks after settling the latest pay negotiations with management saw the carpet pulled from under them via the Air HK Freight situation? And what are they doing about it now to protect their members' jobs? Horse bolted - again?
The same body who sat back and watched the likes of us overlooked for recruitment (true we were/are non members and not working for CX as such) in the place of naive others accepting this C/D scale? We were ASSURED by CX that we would be called in the order of success at Stage 2 of the process.
The same pilot body whereby SO's are desperately seeking to be elected to office because they are sick of the senior A and B scalers sitting back and protecting their own interests? Age 60 ring a bell anyone??
Where's the AOA? Probably revising a "plan of action" to be explored, written about, complained about till voted on by 2020.
So, who should we put faith in to protect our career? CX Management or AOA? Who's track record is better?
"If" I did join CX yes I would join the AOA. Part of the problem vs part of the solution. The exact same reason why I refuse to go through this insult to be reinterviewed for a job I never applied for.
Now "if" we all did stand together and refuse this (as we did but one the last time) then perhaps we could teach the AOA a lesson: from pilots not even at CX.
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Turning it down. Cant make the numbers work, dont want to live in HK and not be able to enjoy it as too much of my salary has to go into housing. I also still have a little bit of pride left in me that says I am above being called a cadet.
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Totally Agree
I have been in the CX hold system now since 2007. All by choice. Their first offer was not enough for me to take my family to Hong Kong and really enjoy the benefits that HK has to offer.
This "final" offer is a joke and I am not impressed about the apparent view towards Pilots that was at one time, one of, if not the, most prestigious Airline in the world. I have a very secure job in Canada now and am finally reaping the rewards of a hard start in this industry.
Good luck to you all.
AT
PS I have informed CX that their lack of a real offer has forced me to remove my application and I will no longer pursue a career at Cathay Pacific.
This "final" offer is a joke and I am not impressed about the apparent view towards Pilots that was at one time, one of, if not the, most prestigious Airline in the world. I have a very secure job in Canada now and am finally reaping the rewards of a hard start in this industry.
Good luck to you all.
AT
PS I have informed CX that their lack of a real offer has forced me to remove my application and I will no longer pursue a career at Cathay Pacific.
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Dan buster,
I tend to agree with you but imagine a 25 year old Australian / Canadian / American male/female with 1000-1500 hours working in GA for next to nothing. This must be enticing on some level. Put yourself in their shoes just for a minute.
Virgin Blue have just jumped on the cadet band wagon and it looks like it's here to stay (at least here in Oz) pending the senate inquiry of course.
The writing is on the wall for any future airline pilots. Those of you who are there and established I wish you the best of British luck in hanging on to what you've got.
The bean counters always win.
Bunghole.
I tend to agree with you but imagine a 25 year old Australian / Canadian / American male/female with 1000-1500 hours working in GA for next to nothing. This must be enticing on some level. Put yourself in their shoes just for a minute.
Virgin Blue have just jumped on the cadet band wagon and it looks like it's here to stay (at least here in Oz) pending the senate inquiry of course.
The writing is on the wall for any future airline pilots. Those of you who are there and established I wish you the best of British luck in hanging on to what you've got.
The bean counters always win.
Bunghole.
bunghole,
NO NO NO.... someone with 1000 to 1500 hrs is in a good position to get on a twin (if he or she isn't already flying one) and then get a job with a company flying two crew turbo prop in Australia, NZ or PNG... only once you have done that you should join an airline...95% of all my GA mates ended up in one...
Do you really think that doing the radios in cruise at 4am over Bangladesh is going to improve your flying skills or make you a REAL pilot???
I just dont understand what it is these days with all these kids trying to get into an airline as soon as they completed their CPL... I am glad I have done it the "hard" way and - if I had to - I would again choose the same path.
AB
NO NO NO.... someone with 1000 to 1500 hrs is in a good position to get on a twin (if he or she isn't already flying one) and then get a job with a company flying two crew turbo prop in Australia, NZ or PNG... only once you have done that you should join an airline...95% of all my GA mates ended up in one...
Do you really think that doing the radios in cruise at 4am over Bangladesh is going to improve your flying skills or make you a REAL pilot???
I just dont understand what it is these days with all these kids trying to get into an airline as soon as they completed their CPL... I am glad I have done it the "hard" way and - if I had to - I would again choose the same path.
AB
Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 19th Mar 2011 at 00:30.