Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme
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Chinabeached, are you not the cheapest option as a part-time contracted pilot? Surely integrity and respect for the profession would stretch to arguing for the preservation of permanent jobs for pilots, just like the good old days? You have no grounds to claim people taking this opportunity are an insult to the profession, simply based on the fact that you are YOURSELF depreciating the value of what it used to mean to be a pilot. The days of permanent contracts are now over thanks to people like you. You claim that we sit in Adelaide attending lectures entitled "this is a wing, what does it do?" yet have no experience down here, are you suggesting that the levels required to pass CPL and ATPL examinations are being lowered? Assuming the fact that you know qantas and dragonair along with the chinese search and rescue also train their pilots here, are you seriously implying that the standards are lowered for all these cadets, or just that via magic means the cx cadets are allowed to pass through knowing nothing? We work just as hard as you and any other pilot will have done to pass the exams. An ATPL is an ATPL whether it was issued 10 years ago or 10 days ago. You are imposing a fairly serious allegation against the HKCAD and CASA who invigilate and award these certifications and making a bit of a fool out of yourself.
The way you handle yourself on this forum is in itself a sad view of what modern day "pilots" have become, get off your computer, leave these guys alone and get on with your own things.
The way you handle yourself on this forum is in itself a sad view of what modern day "pilots" have become, get off your computer, leave these guys alone and get on with your own things.
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JJ - am willing to discuss things with you when you come to the table in a decent manner. It's appreciated.
No, I didn't have a rich daddy or family. Like most flying for an airline was all I dreamt about. I had enough saved up for a restricted license after I left school due part time jobs and school holiday jobs (building site labouring). I worked in bars and nightclubs as a glassy as well as laborer gigs off and on while learning to fly & study to make it happen. I drove from one end of Oz to the other to follow up the CVs I sent out and phone calls I made. Most/all operators said no via a phone call or didn't reply to emails or letters. Me standing in front of them gave a far different impression. I landed a job in a single, then light twin, then turboprop FO, Capt to a jet job. In the early GA days I still worked in bars to keep the momentum. I travelled from Oz through Asia to the UK during the first holiday I took in over 4 years since working as a pilot to hunt for a jet job when the industry in Oz wasn't hiring. After 6 months or so on the jet I was offered the CX interview (early 2008) and passed..... The iCadetship was not what I interviewed for. Mine & other pilots' careers are worth more.
I did not take out a massive loan but looked at the option when or if I would of had to. Not because I wanted to but because that's what it may of taken in tough times. The harder I worked the luckier I got it seemed.
For guys with as little as 500 hrs TT there are 320 and 737 jobs in Asia. That's perhaps a year to 18 months of "hard yards" which is nothing in the scheme of things. With more recognised hours comes more options. That how it works. No, RyanAir is not a bastion of good will in the industry but if you're going to make a choice over 2 evils of CX iCadet as SO on a P2X vs a RHS of a single aisle jet (let alone any job flying anything!!) then take the option to build your hours!!!! You then become the owner of your destiny and not at the mercy of CX and the bond that as you can see is far longer than just the 6 year period due the severe lack of recognised hours. And what of age vs experience? Airlines look at this as well.
Far too many iCadets hopefuls have not considered the big picture and long term realities. Others like the muppet above do it, whine about it (refer to his previous posts) and then shout from the rafters in a bi-polar manner defending it?! There are far, far better options out there that just take more investigation, planning, commitment and determination.
No, I didn't have a rich daddy or family. Like most flying for an airline was all I dreamt about. I had enough saved up for a restricted license after I left school due part time jobs and school holiday jobs (building site labouring). I worked in bars and nightclubs as a glassy as well as laborer gigs off and on while learning to fly & study to make it happen. I drove from one end of Oz to the other to follow up the CVs I sent out and phone calls I made. Most/all operators said no via a phone call or didn't reply to emails or letters. Me standing in front of them gave a far different impression. I landed a job in a single, then light twin, then turboprop FO, Capt to a jet job. In the early GA days I still worked in bars to keep the momentum. I travelled from Oz through Asia to the UK during the first holiday I took in over 4 years since working as a pilot to hunt for a jet job when the industry in Oz wasn't hiring. After 6 months or so on the jet I was offered the CX interview (early 2008) and passed..... The iCadetship was not what I interviewed for. Mine & other pilots' careers are worth more.
I did not take out a massive loan but looked at the option when or if I would of had to. Not because I wanted to but because that's what it may of taken in tough times. The harder I worked the luckier I got it seemed.
For guys with as little as 500 hrs TT there are 320 and 737 jobs in Asia. That's perhaps a year to 18 months of "hard yards" which is nothing in the scheme of things. With more recognised hours comes more options. That how it works. No, RyanAir is not a bastion of good will in the industry but if you're going to make a choice over 2 evils of CX iCadet as SO on a P2X vs a RHS of a single aisle jet (let alone any job flying anything!!) then take the option to build your hours!!!! You then become the owner of your destiny and not at the mercy of CX and the bond that as you can see is far longer than just the 6 year period due the severe lack of recognised hours. And what of age vs experience? Airlines look at this as well.
Far too many iCadets hopefuls have not considered the big picture and long term realities. Others like the muppet above do it, whine about it (refer to his previous posts) and then shout from the rafters in a bi-polar manner defending it?! There are far, far better options out there that just take more investigation, planning, commitment and determination.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 29th Aug 2012 at 07:14.
I never get hints boundaries. Why are you so angry? Are you hungry? Finally come to the realisation that you are a soul-less sellout scumbag C scaler? Upset that you're just 'getting by'?
I am starting to think, or perhaps hope, that you are an exceptionally good internet troll.
I am starting to think, or perhaps hope, that you are an exceptionally good internet troll.
Last edited by j3pipercub; 29th Aug 2012 at 11:18.
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That bottom lip's a-quivering again!!
But you are right: CX do not live up my expectations. They've come down to yours. I deserve better than CX can offer. No apologies there dopey.
What do "credentials" mean when we're both a 390? In the case of a non normal occurrence the pilot with the years of "experience" & "credentials" will deal with it. In amongst your bottom lip quivering your 1st Memory Item will be to remove soiled nappies while being thrown out of the seat where a pilot with a real rating who actually is licensed to "fly" does what you're not permitted, licensed or qualified to do.
I'll double check my TCAS whenever at FL390 & a pre-pubescent squeak lauding a CX call sign broadcastes....!!!!!
But you are right: CX do not live up my expectations. They've come down to yours. I deserve better than CX can offer. No apologies there dopey.
What do "credentials" mean when we're both a 390? In the case of a non normal occurrence the pilot with the years of "experience" & "credentials" will deal with it. In amongst your bottom lip quivering your 1st Memory Item will be to remove soiled nappies while being thrown out of the seat where a pilot with a real rating who actually is licensed to "fly" does what you're not permitted, licensed or qualified to do.
I'll double check my TCAS whenever at FL390 & a pre-pubescent squeak lauding a CX call sign broadcastes....!!!!!
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no.boundaries (but for the training bond / forgivable loan, lack of experience, lack of credentials, unrecognised hours and spectator-at-best license),
Let's just clarify your grammar before we go on.
When you state "I fly / flew" replace with "I observe / observed"
When you state "I work for" replace "I cheapened"
When you state "I do the same as qualified widebody pilots" replace with "I'm not qualified to do what qualified widebody pilots do"
Bottom lip quivering again? Did I not state absolute, undeniable FACTS? All facts of your P2X license, it's privileges, limitations as bound by the HK CAD.
So you passed the same "memorise the answer" CAD CPL & ATPL exams from the spreadsheets of the question & answer bank CX gave you? Well done champ! Head to Macau and start counting cards Rain Man!!!!!
My "arrogance"? You confuse self worth and refusal to cheapen the airline and profession as that. No one else. You've got to have it to realise it's worth. Same with integrity.
You're the lowest and cheapest option CX can find to fill a seat. FACT.
?????
No. Never. My "friends" will not sell out and cheapen my career as you profess to be proud of. My friends have my back and won't pursue the cheapest and nastiest way to stab his "friends" & industry in the back as you so proudly do. Not on what you deem your best day (observing) or whatever cheap-as-hell option you subscribe to could ever make a guy like you a person I'd ever share a beer with.
So again, on your next "observation" ask the real pilots if they are happy to have an iCadet like YOU & all YOU represent on the flight deck as opposed to a pilot with a few thousand hours experience and not cheapening their job and profession. HTFU kid and ask the real questions at the coal face. You're tolerated out of disliked courtesy, not nor never will be out of any respect. Your career and how you got there will follow you to the end. You'll never be respected.
Let's just clarify your grammar before we go on.
When you state "I fly / flew" replace with "I observe / observed"
When you state "I work for" replace "I cheapened"
When you state "I do the same as qualified widebody pilots" replace with "I'm not qualified to do what qualified widebody pilots do"
Bottom lip quivering again? Did I not state absolute, undeniable FACTS? All facts of your P2X license, it's privileges, limitations as bound by the HK CAD.
So you passed the same "memorise the answer" CAD CPL & ATPL exams from the spreadsheets of the question & answer bank CX gave you? Well done champ! Head to Macau and start counting cards Rain Man!!!!!
My "arrogance"? You confuse self worth and refusal to cheapen the airline and profession as that. No one else. You've got to have it to realise it's worth. Same with integrity.
You're the lowest and cheapest option CX can find to fill a seat. FACT.
My friend
No. Never. My "friends" will not sell out and cheapen my career as you profess to be proud of. My friends have my back and won't pursue the cheapest and nastiest way to stab his "friends" & industry in the back as you so proudly do. Not on what you deem your best day (observing) or whatever cheap-as-hell option you subscribe to could ever make a guy like you a person I'd ever share a beer with.
So again, on your next "observation" ask the real pilots if they are happy to have an iCadet like YOU & all YOU represent on the flight deck as opposed to a pilot with a few thousand hours experience and not cheapening their job and profession. HTFU kid and ask the real questions at the coal face. You're tolerated out of disliked courtesy, not nor never will be out of any respect. Your career and how you got there will follow you to the end. You'll never be respected.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 29th Aug 2012 at 15:09.
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Now come on Donger Boy.... Do you seriously consider the CX provided spreadsheets of the question bank and answers to the CAD CPL and ATPL exams as being respectable? I've enough mates who've been through Adelaide as a DESO and all have been given those pages of questions for the CAD exams. I even have them myself!
This is beginning to feel like shooting fish in a barrel.
You get a CPL from a flying school in Adelaide. Conratu-effing-lations. You've gotten out of the cot and into nappies. We all go through it, but some of us use the credential to not cheapen the profession. So congrats on trying to get it! But no fella, that's where the comparisons end. Like your mate no.boundaries it'll be years before you fly a real aircraft again, pre-flight and sign out your own aircraft, create, submit, amend mid-air and act as a true pilot. But somehow you'll believe it your right to complain about barely making ends meet on the salary, commenting on standards and company limitations such circling approaches but then defending your ignorant decisions!!
I'm outwardly abrasive on this forum, no denying. Does that offend you? Why? Does not your abundant levels of integrity at what you've signed up for and what you contribute to not pasify the need to be offended? if you're offended by facts that I've mentioned then perhaps you should look at yourself kid, as opposed to me stating them. What if I dare say the world is round??!! I'll bet you'll scream denial if there's a cheap way to do it whereby you'll perceive it's in your own ignorant interest to do so.
I'm on a contract because the money and time off are so damn GREAT! You haven't the foggiest of what you're talking about kid. I'm also on a contract because the job a worked my a$re off for and was offered has been cheapened to a level that you need and I refuse. Hold up that piece of paper you signed with CX with yourself beside it in the mirror. It's called a "contract". You're employed as a "contract employee" by definiition. I'd like to think few could be humanely as plain dumb as you and no.boundaries but this is what cheap gets. Pay bananas, get monkeys. No, I take that back. Monkeys have proven to show reasoning skills. Let's not slur the monkeys.
They teach you the basics of a CPL at Adelaide. High fives over some Cottees cordial!!! Too bad they can't instill integrity for the job. There are however a few instructors there who I think may offer some advice as to CX's morality? Try them.
This is beginning to feel like shooting fish in a barrel.
You get a CPL from a flying school in Adelaide. Conratu-effing-lations. You've gotten out of the cot and into nappies. We all go through it, but some of us use the credential to not cheapen the profession. So congrats on trying to get it! But no fella, that's where the comparisons end. Like your mate no.boundaries it'll be years before you fly a real aircraft again, pre-flight and sign out your own aircraft, create, submit, amend mid-air and act as a true pilot. But somehow you'll believe it your right to complain about barely making ends meet on the salary, commenting on standards and company limitations such circling approaches but then defending your ignorant decisions!!
I'm outwardly abrasive on this forum, no denying. Does that offend you? Why? Does not your abundant levels of integrity at what you've signed up for and what you contribute to not pasify the need to be offended? if you're offended by facts that I've mentioned then perhaps you should look at yourself kid, as opposed to me stating them. What if I dare say the world is round??!! I'll bet you'll scream denial if there's a cheap way to do it whereby you'll perceive it's in your own ignorant interest to do so.
I'm on a contract because the money and time off are so damn GREAT! You haven't the foggiest of what you're talking about kid. I'm also on a contract because the job a worked my a$re off for and was offered has been cheapened to a level that you need and I refuse. Hold up that piece of paper you signed with CX with yourself beside it in the mirror. It's called a "contract". You're employed as a "contract employee" by definiition. I'd like to think few could be humanely as plain dumb as you and no.boundaries but this is what cheap gets. Pay bananas, get monkeys. No, I take that back. Monkeys have proven to show reasoning skills. Let's not slur the monkeys.
They teach you the basics of a CPL at Adelaide. High fives over some Cottees cordial!!! Too bad they can't instill integrity for the job. There are however a few instructors there who I think may offer some advice as to CX's morality? Try them.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 29th Aug 2012 at 16:09.
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ChinaB
Your reference to the instructors in Adelaide is lost on this bunch. They've no idea who they're getting into bed with.
For the rest 100% on the mark, well said.
Your reference to the instructors in Adelaide is lost on this bunch. They've no idea who they're getting into bed with.
For the rest 100% on the mark, well said.
Now no.boundaries, for someone who changed usernames so management can't find you, you certainly give a great deal away in 16 posts.
For example, You are an SO on the Airbus Fleet
And you started with Cathay in early 2011
Soooo, on the Airbus, started early 2011. Then this kicker on the locked brakes thread
So the original comment was about an incident on the 17th of August. Unless you just like flying to other countries and hanging around their airports in your spare time, you were on a trip.
So if I were in CX (You'd be surprised how many senior guys look at this thread), I reckon in 5 minutes I could narrow down exactly who you are. Just look for the Airbus S/O operating into/out of Melbourne on the 17th of August whose Staff number roughly equated to your start date.
And after comments about your F/Os and Capts like
AND
AND
I reckon your next trip and/or Sims are going to be a TREAT!!!
j3
'Hey Mav, do you still have the name of that truck driving school?'
For example, You are an SO on the Airbus Fleet
I am an SO on the 330/340 from the earlier international cadet courses.
26th Feb 2012, 15:12 I have been SO for just over a year now and a lot of us are struggling to make ends meet
i heard about this also and didnt know if it was true or not. i was at melbourne airport that day. can anyone confirm?
So if I were in CX (You'd be surprised how many senior guys look at this thread), I reckon in 5 minutes I could narrow down exactly who you are. Just look for the Airbus S/O operating into/out of Melbourne on the 17th of August whose Staff number roughly equated to your start date.
And after comments about your F/Os and Capts like
I have to deal with the likes of you everyday the self proclaimed Gods of the skies! Spare me with your good T&Cs being threatened so what?? Airlines all over the world do these schemes thats how I got into CX and although I would enjoy the pay my direct entry counterparts are recieving i am getting by ok and doing the job i love. Flying! So spare me with your biggotry you old geezers.
a few extra thousand hours in a log book does not mean you are a better qualified pilot when we both do the same job in the end! the route of how you get to airlines does not matter its getting three that counts!
You self proclaimed sky Gods are starting to piss me off with your self righteous think your better than the rest of us attitudes. We fly the same planes and feel the same fatigue only difference is a few sq100ft space apartment and a couple extra $$ in the bank BIG DEAL!! Your so called AandB-scale days are over and the sooner you all realize the glory days are over the better things will be for the rest of us working hard to make ends meet. Tried holding it in but enough is enough it was time to voice my opinion and im sure many agree with me!!
j3
'Hey Mav, do you still have the name of that truck driving school?'
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no.boundaries
You could learn a lot from these guys you call "old geezers". I certainly did and it helped me make an important decision not to join CX on the current package being offered. Insulting those above you (both age and seniority) is a sign that you are disrespectful coward. Acting the way you've been certainly does not help the fact that you iCadets are already looked down upon by your seniors. At least be modest and respectful.
Guys I see your efforts to reason with this guy, but don't waste your energy on the likes of no.boundaries, they will never understand the true meaning of respect.
Guys I see your efforts to reason with this guy, but don't waste your energy on the likes of no.boundaries, they will never understand the true meaning of respect.
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no.boundaries (but for the training bond / forgivable loan, lack of experience, lack of credentials, unrecognised hours and spectator-at-best license),
How many ICAO recognised hours do you have as opposed to 777ER? He's on a turbo prop "FLYING", as is a C150 pilot or a recreational guy in a Tiger Moth. How many posts must you embarrass yourself about claiming to "FLY" when under the terms, conditions, privileges and limitations of your P2X it is simply ILLEGAL for you to manipulate the controls. You call others "arrogant" when you claim to do something you don't and are not legally permitted to just so satisfy this bi-polar ego. Do you Skype mummy and daddy about your "flying" and oh how proud they must be! How about tell them the truth that you were ONLY able to apply and be hired at CX because you sold out the profession and do it cheaper than other qualified pilots?? You are the result of others refusing to apply. You are the bottom of the barrel and cheapest option.
You also still persist on saying that I "didn't make it through". You're just cementing the imbecilic image of your own persona by repeating the same lies. I interviewed, passed and was offered the job. So how did I therefore "not make it through"? Refusing to accept an offer equates to "not making it". You're clearly as stupid as your spelling indicates. (We all make typos, but your general spelling reeks of your intellectual capacity).
777ER will have the credentials to "FLY" a jet far sooner than you, with a better salary and career potential. His log book is already far better than yours. He "flies"!! It'll take 2 years at the EARLIEST when / if you become JFO/FO. So, if you started at CX with 250 hrs (say) in 2011 (let's be kind and call it January), 5 years as SO still = 250 recognised hours, 2 years flying an average 750 hrs per year by 2018 you'll be where 777ER will be in 2014 if he started on the turbo prop in Jan 2012. You are so stupid that it's become laughable!
No mater what the comparisons, guys like 777ER will have what you will never have in the industry: respect from his colleagues and personal integrity. We see the iCadets dazed and confused about the world's airports and you have no idea of how you're laughed at....
You claim to "fly" here and there but you don't.
You claim I didn't interview, pass and was offered a job at CX, but you lie there as well.
You defend the iCadetship / iCannotship / iKidship but moan elsewhere about the salary and difficulty in making ends meet.
As above, you don't fly yet feel qualified to comment on issues such as "flying" circling approaches when you've at best done the minimum number for a CPL in C152 at a flying school.
You defend the standards at CX and yet comment [quote] "so the stories are true after all" in response to a post stating that the glory days have been fading since April 1st, 1993....
Bi-polar?
Answer us all this:
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU MANIPULATED THE CONTROLS (STICK) OF AN AIRCRAFT IN FLIGHT (NOT SIMULATOR)?
If you have not (well, we know you cannot due your license) then stop rubbing yourself into the sublime ignorance you expose yourself to here by repeating that you actually do "FLY" You're about to do yourself an injury kid, or draw blood soon.....! (You may as well and tell mummy and daddy the truth as well?)
At best you're an immature, naive, self denying idiot. In reality you're just a self satisfying pathological delusion fool about the role you play in the cockpit, airline and industry. All you've done here is demonstrated the disgraceful standard of the average iCadet / iCannot / iKid. It's not just me stating it but those who work for CX as well. You're not only a slur on the profession but to iCadets in general.
pilotchute - you subscribe to this defeatist attitude and believe we should all accept it. History is full of examples of people sitting back and watching sh!t happen thinking it'll be OK and it won't affect them....
No, you haven't done your maths at all. Even this moron no.boundaries (but for the training bond / forgivable loan, lack of experience, lack of credentials, unrecognised hours and spectator-at-best license) writes about it being difficult to make ends meet and wishes he'd heeded the warnings regarding the truth of the salary package. Please read this ENTIRE thread before posting about issues already covered ad nausea.
How many ICAO recognised hours do you have as opposed to 777ER? He's on a turbo prop "FLYING", as is a C150 pilot or a recreational guy in a Tiger Moth. How many posts must you embarrass yourself about claiming to "FLY" when under the terms, conditions, privileges and limitations of your P2X it is simply ILLEGAL for you to manipulate the controls. You call others "arrogant" when you claim to do something you don't and are not legally permitted to just so satisfy this bi-polar ego. Do you Skype mummy and daddy about your "flying" and oh how proud they must be! How about tell them the truth that you were ONLY able to apply and be hired at CX because you sold out the profession and do it cheaper than other qualified pilots?? You are the result of others refusing to apply. You are the bottom of the barrel and cheapest option.
You also still persist on saying that I "didn't make it through". You're just cementing the imbecilic image of your own persona by repeating the same lies. I interviewed, passed and was offered the job. So how did I therefore "not make it through"? Refusing to accept an offer equates to "not making it". You're clearly as stupid as your spelling indicates. (We all make typos, but your general spelling reeks of your intellectual capacity).
777ER will have the credentials to "FLY" a jet far sooner than you, with a better salary and career potential. His log book is already far better than yours. He "flies"!! It'll take 2 years at the EARLIEST when / if you become JFO/FO. So, if you started at CX with 250 hrs (say) in 2011 (let's be kind and call it January), 5 years as SO still = 250 recognised hours, 2 years flying an average 750 hrs per year by 2018 you'll be where 777ER will be in 2014 if he started on the turbo prop in Jan 2012. You are so stupid that it's become laughable!
No mater what the comparisons, guys like 777ER will have what you will never have in the industry: respect from his colleagues and personal integrity. We see the iCadets dazed and confused about the world's airports and you have no idea of how you're laughed at....
You claim to "fly" here and there but you don't.
You claim I didn't interview, pass and was offered a job at CX, but you lie there as well.
You defend the iCadetship / iCannotship / iKidship but moan elsewhere about the salary and difficulty in making ends meet.
As above, you don't fly yet feel qualified to comment on issues such as "flying" circling approaches when you've at best done the minimum number for a CPL in C152 at a flying school.
You defend the standards at CX and yet comment [quote] "so the stories are true after all" in response to a post stating that the glory days have been fading since April 1st, 1993....
Bi-polar?
Answer us all this:
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU MANIPULATED THE CONTROLS (STICK) OF AN AIRCRAFT IN FLIGHT (NOT SIMULATOR)?
If you have not (well, we know you cannot due your license) then stop rubbing yourself into the sublime ignorance you expose yourself to here by repeating that you actually do "FLY" You're about to do yourself an injury kid, or draw blood soon.....! (You may as well and tell mummy and daddy the truth as well?)
At best you're an immature, naive, self denying idiot. In reality you're just a self satisfying pathological delusion fool about the role you play in the cockpit, airline and industry. All you've done here is demonstrated the disgraceful standard of the average iCadet / iCannot / iKid. It's not just me stating it but those who work for CX as well. You're not only a slur on the profession but to iCadets in general.
pilotchute - you subscribe to this defeatist attitude and believe we should all accept it. History is full of examples of people sitting back and watching sh!t happen thinking it'll be OK and it won't affect them....
No, you haven't done your maths at all. Even this moron no.boundaries (but for the training bond / forgivable loan, lack of experience, lack of credentials, unrecognised hours and spectator-at-best license) writes about it being difficult to make ends meet and wishes he'd heeded the warnings regarding the truth of the salary package. Please read this ENTIRE thread before posting about issues already covered ad nausea.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 30th Aug 2012 at 11:59.
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CX flying south
this whole cadet program, trying to hire pilots out of Pakistan etc are just more examples of the the quality of the CX brand falling out of the sky. I 100% agree with many non CX employees I talk to that the standard levels we now operate at are on a steep decline, with a special mention saved for cabin crew. This whole rostering debacle is a joke and is it going to take a major incident before management realise the impact is it causing
I came up here to fly for what I perceived being the best airline globally and now people to prefer to fly budget airlines than CX!
I came up here to fly for what I perceived being the best airline globally and now people to prefer to fly budget airlines than CX!
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To be honest, you both have valid points but I don't see the point in going at each other's throats unless you both aren't really flying that much so you're on here quite a bit.
At the end of the day, the time of stick flying is pretty much gone. Where I am, we are encouraged to fly the plane but I know in many places, you're encouraged to stick in CMD as soon as possible otherwise they think the plane will fall out of the sky. I have a friend who's an SO in CX and apparently you guys leave the A/THR in for the landing as well? Point is, the most important thing these days is to work together in moment of urgency, take a look at the QF A380. That's the sort of crew I want. Imagine if they were going at each other's throats just because of their senority during all those ECAM messages?
Being an SO isn't a bad thing but it's also not the best thing since slice bread. Again, from my friend's account, it was a JFO flying whom has 4 years of flying experience but yet struggles with a CDA. That just shows you're not really doing much as an SO as you're not really exposed to thinking about controlling the aircraft from CRZ to landing. You have to accept that in fact you don't know it all as an SO and in fact no one ever knows it all. If I was in command I would take your suggestions with as much weight as someone with more experience but just dump the "know it all" attitude.
Let's hope the attitude changes before we get another Tenerife disaster.
At the end of the day, the time of stick flying is pretty much gone. Where I am, we are encouraged to fly the plane but I know in many places, you're encouraged to stick in CMD as soon as possible otherwise they think the plane will fall out of the sky. I have a friend who's an SO in CX and apparently you guys leave the A/THR in for the landing as well? Point is, the most important thing these days is to work together in moment of urgency, take a look at the QF A380. That's the sort of crew I want. Imagine if they were going at each other's throats just because of their senority during all those ECAM messages?
Being an SO isn't a bad thing but it's also not the best thing since slice bread. Again, from my friend's account, it was a JFO flying whom has 4 years of flying experience but yet struggles with a CDA. That just shows you're not really doing much as an SO as you're not really exposed to thinking about controlling the aircraft from CRZ to landing. You have to accept that in fact you don't know it all as an SO and in fact no one ever knows it all. If I was in command I would take your suggestions with as much weight as someone with more experience but just dump the "know it all" attitude.
Let's hope the attitude changes before we get another Tenerife disaster.
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Valid points but not at all what this dispute is about.
(However, your post refers to a term called "resilience" in the airline industry and the capacity of an airline's pilots to fly without the autopilot......)
Imagine a kid with zero hours accepting to take the job offered you 3 1/2 years prior which you patiently & desperately waited for only to do it for far, far less money and degenerate the profession and then defending his choice to do so and carrying on like this brat does. You make a stand, vote with your feet and say no. And now you have to listen to this spoilt, ignorant, naive and moronic brat's bi-polar BS. That's the point. Tenerife is as alien to the modern day GenY P2X spectator sell-out child as is a happy meal without fries.
He's cheapened the profession and proudly supports & defends his decision to do so - while then b!tching about the salary he asked to receive and "fatigue" he suffers watching the qualified and licensed pilots do what he is not allowed to. He exists at CX because he's the bottom of a lowly barrel and the cheapest backside in a seat while the real pilot has a sleep, and then is replaced when the "flying" is required.
Those who can, do.
Those who do with experience, teach.
Those who can't or not licensed/qualified to, spectate.
Those with integrity know when to say no.
Those without integrity sell-out to the cheapest and easiest offer.
(However, your post refers to a term called "resilience" in the airline industry and the capacity of an airline's pilots to fly without the autopilot......)
Imagine a kid with zero hours accepting to take the job offered you 3 1/2 years prior which you patiently & desperately waited for only to do it for far, far less money and degenerate the profession and then defending his choice to do so and carrying on like this brat does. You make a stand, vote with your feet and say no. And now you have to listen to this spoilt, ignorant, naive and moronic brat's bi-polar BS. That's the point. Tenerife is as alien to the modern day GenY P2X spectator sell-out child as is a happy meal without fries.
He's cheapened the profession and proudly supports & defends his decision to do so - while then b!tching about the salary he asked to receive and "fatigue" he suffers watching the qualified and licensed pilots do what he is not allowed to. He exists at CX because he's the bottom of a lowly barrel and the cheapest backside in a seat while the real pilot has a sleep, and then is replaced when the "flying" is required.
Those who can, do.
Those who do with experience, teach.
Those who can't or not licensed/qualified to, spectate.
Those with integrity know when to say no.
Those without integrity sell-out to the cheapest and easiest offer.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 30th Aug 2012 at 14:03.
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I understand where you're coming from with regards to people jumping the queue and cheapening the profession but take it from another's point of view. A school leaver from HK who doesn't exactly live in a place filled with airfields have always wanted to be a pilot but also doesn't have to fund even to get a PPL let alone a CPL for him to build experience. CX now comes along and offer to pay for the whole thing so that he can realise his dream, I personally wouldn't say no to that.
Let's say there are 2000 people who wants to do this, how are you going to stop this? Even if you somehow got 1000 to say no, there will be another 1000 willing to sign up. This industry will always be heading down hill in terms of T&C and that's because there are simply too many people in the world looking for a job. The attitude of one cadet doesn't mean its the same for everyone however, there are guys there who knows what they are and are willing to take advice.
I for one like many others don't want the job to really become a mundane low paid job but sometimes there's nothing you could do. Once upon a time, people didn't pay for their training so who was the guy that said yes in the first place?
Let's say there are 2000 people who wants to do this, how are you going to stop this? Even if you somehow got 1000 to say no, there will be another 1000 willing to sign up. This industry will always be heading down hill in terms of T&C and that's because there are simply too many people in the world looking for a job. The attitude of one cadet doesn't mean its the same for everyone however, there are guys there who knows what they are and are willing to take advice.
I for one like many others don't want the job to really become a mundane low paid job but sometimes there's nothing you could do. Once upon a time, people didn't pay for their training so who was the guy that said yes in the first place?
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CX give you NOTHING for free. They make the "free" training back within 2-3 years via the reduced remuneration package as opposed to the other pilots. But you're bonded for at least 6 years? THEY'RE MAING MONEY OUT OF THEM! So you've well and truly paid for this "free" training and will continue to pay into the bonus cheques of these immoral and greedy managers for the rest of your contracted period at CX on C-Scale. Sort of like paying a cover charge to get a "free drink"..... The fools see "free" and go racing in!!!
Nothing we can do? YES THERE IS. You can say NO. It may take a spine and integrity though.
Who screwed it up in the first place? Well, sell-outs who signed up even before the $10k housing allowance was offered for example! So, following the sell-out down a path of eternal shame and disrespect of your colleagues makes it OK? No. You have a choice to make: part of the problem or part of the solution.
The former package would HAVE TO BE offered within weeks if everyone stood together and said no. To recruit the required pilots CX would be forced to offer a better package.
While I appreciate the opinion pilotho, the answers are simple. It just takes a pair of balls, a spine and some integrity - which as we can see is waaaaay beyond the likes parading a dummy spit bi-polar attitude here.
Nothing we can do? YES THERE IS. You can say NO. It may take a spine and integrity though.
Who screwed it up in the first place? Well, sell-outs who signed up even before the $10k housing allowance was offered for example! So, following the sell-out down a path of eternal shame and disrespect of your colleagues makes it OK? No. You have a choice to make: part of the problem or part of the solution.
The former package would HAVE TO BE offered within weeks if everyone stood together and said no. To recruit the required pilots CX would be forced to offer a better package.
While I appreciate the opinion pilotho, the answers are simple. It just takes a pair of balls, a spine and some integrity - which as we can see is waaaaay beyond the likes parading a dummy spit bi-polar attitude here.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 30th Aug 2012 at 14:07.
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JJ - there are options outside of HK and right on your door step in Asia that will allow you far better career than CX can at present. I hope you can please research all them thoroughly before going down this CX cadetship. You can pursue your ambitions better if you do the research and preparation.
Good luck. From the PM's we've swapped I wish you the best.....
Good luck. From the PM's we've swapped I wish you the best.....
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CB
Hello again. You seem to be an intelligent, principled person so surely you must understand that this Quixotic quest of yours here on PPRuNe to dissuade others from signing on to the so-called iCadet package is doomed to failure. I think many who read your posts agree with you but sadly the reality is, as pilotho pointed out, for every one like you who turns down the package there are two standing in line to take your place.
So where to next after turning down CX? Most airlines around the world are hell-bent on driving down terms and conditions. Many of those that appear to be attractive now will, at some point in their future, attack the pilots' remuneration package. As Don Corleone would say, it's not personal, simply business.
We find ourselves in a once proud and sought after profession, the standing of which is being eroded by those we deem to be unworthy of judging us. Will things ever improve? I doubt it. Will they continue to decline? Probably, until the number of those refusing to work for what is seen as sub-standard conditions becomes a critical mass. Will that happen at CX? Probably not in the near future although it might happen if enough experienced pilots vote with their feet and go to other airlines.
Maintain your principles, enjoy your career but you have to let this obsession of yours go at some point - it just seems so unhealthy.
STP
Hello again. You seem to be an intelligent, principled person so surely you must understand that this Quixotic quest of yours here on PPRuNe to dissuade others from signing on to the so-called iCadet package is doomed to failure. I think many who read your posts agree with you but sadly the reality is, as pilotho pointed out, for every one like you who turns down the package there are two standing in line to take your place.
So where to next after turning down CX? Most airlines around the world are hell-bent on driving down terms and conditions. Many of those that appear to be attractive now will, at some point in their future, attack the pilots' remuneration package. As Don Corleone would say, it's not personal, simply business.
We find ourselves in a once proud and sought after profession, the standing of which is being eroded by those we deem to be unworthy of judging us. Will things ever improve? I doubt it. Will they continue to decline? Probably, until the number of those refusing to work for what is seen as sub-standard conditions becomes a critical mass. Will that happen at CX? Probably not in the near future although it might happen if enough experienced pilots vote with their feet and go to other airlines.
Maintain your principles, enjoy your career but you have to let this obsession of yours go at some point - it just seems so unhealthy.
STP
Last edited by Steve the Pirate; 30th Aug 2012 at 23:56.
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STP - you're right.
Things only decline as such when others allow it to happen. Absolute ignorant and illiterate types like no.boundaries are CX's future now: a guy so full of delusions of grandeur, hatred for those with more experience, denial of his own position in the food chain and eager to dish out his own form of vengeance when the time comes. What a despicable individual.
Sadly, this is the future that guys like you have to deal with daily. I don't envy you at all. I hear the stories from my FO/SFO & Capt mates at CX on the 777 and 'Bus tell me all too regularly of hop-along SO whining about the salary and position that he didn't fully appreciate till now.... Sympathy? Hell no. As I wrote previously, I don't believe all iCadets to be as pathetic and deluded as they've shown here - but this guy has done nothing to promote the cause.
I wouldn't call this an unhealthy thing.... I was checking out a link a mate of mine sent me regarding Jetstar HK and posted it here with respect to the CX min requirements. A simple post really. Then this idiot found ignorant to reason to pick a fight. The combination of an outstation layover with free WiFi & the time to expose the pathetic existence of guys like no.boundaries are more to blame for the latest stint! Otherwise you'll note I've pretty much let the clowns have their circus.
Things only decline as such when others allow it to happen. Absolute ignorant and illiterate types like no.boundaries are CX's future now: a guy so full of delusions of grandeur, hatred for those with more experience, denial of his own position in the food chain and eager to dish out his own form of vengeance when the time comes. What a despicable individual.
Sadly, this is the future that guys like you have to deal with daily. I don't envy you at all. I hear the stories from my FO/SFO & Capt mates at CX on the 777 and 'Bus tell me all too regularly of hop-along SO whining about the salary and position that he didn't fully appreciate till now.... Sympathy? Hell no. As I wrote previously, I don't believe all iCadets to be as pathetic and deluded as they've shown here - but this guy has done nothing to promote the cause.
I wouldn't call this an unhealthy thing.... I was checking out a link a mate of mine sent me regarding Jetstar HK and posted it here with respect to the CX min requirements. A simple post really. Then this idiot found ignorant to reason to pick a fight. The combination of an outstation layover with free WiFi & the time to expose the pathetic existence of guys like no.boundaries are more to blame for the latest stint! Otherwise you'll note I've pretty much let the clowns have their circus.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 31st Aug 2012 at 01:04.
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CB what happened to you is a perfect example of what I fear. As I mentioned in the VA cadetship thread, what if I worked hard building experience (like you did) and in the end found out that all the airlines I want to work for are only hiring via cadetships? That's obviously worst case scenario, but it's possible. You got lucky in that there are still some respectable companies out there that pay their pilots what they should, and you landed yourself a nice job, and you were willing to leave Australia. For us young ones who are starting out now, the future isn't looking so good because, like STP said "for every one like you who turns down the package there are two standing in line to take your place" so good T&Cs are gauranteed to decline. Just a quick example to paint the picture... said kid gets his CPL + MECIR, flies singles for x amount of years before getting a light twin job, then progresses to turbo props for a regional company in hopes of getting hired by QF or VA etc, then upon having the experience for DEFO on jets, finds out that the only form of recruitment is via cadetships on lower T&Cs than a DEFO. Lets say this said kid never wanted to leave Australia or his family/friends, what then? Building jet experience overseas is not neccessary as he has the required experiene for DEFO. Again, that's worst case scenario. I look forward to hearing what you have to say CB, as you relate to this situation more than anyone I know. Any of you other experienced guys feel free to let me know what you think also. I enjoy a good discussion were people respectfuly offer their opinions, unlike this no.boundaries guy. Thanks
p.s I am not an applicant for the CX cadetship, but an applicant for the VA cadetship... its the lesser of the evils, and possibly the best if we dont get paid less than line pilots.
p.s I am not an applicant for the CX cadetship, but an applicant for the VA cadetship... its the lesser of the evils, and possibly the best if we dont get paid less than line pilots.
Last edited by MidnightCobra; 1st Sep 2012 at 03:24.
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MC - an interesting perspective. But I think it's as you say "worse case scenario".
My angst (and so well put by STP as being quixotic in nature) is not against "cadetships". It's against the lowering of the standards, remuneration and the overall profession/industry. Look at QF. They've had decades of a successful cadetship course. No, the pilots were never as well qualified as the direct entry guys but they did not lower the terms and conditions of the airline or industry. Many airlines offer cadetships. As a ballpark figure the CX iCadetship lowers pilot remuneration by approximately 60% when you look at the long term picture. That's a massive amount. And now look at the calibre of ignoramus it therefore attracts.... The guys with the experience and credentials walk away in droves. The package now attracts what we have here: the likes of no.boundaries. Previously the minimum recruitment standards and competition for places weeded out such cases. They exist because they are what's left over and what is cheapest - all at the degeneration of the airline and profession.
CX pilots were seeking that ALL pilots, local and expat, receive the same remuneration package. They wanted to support the local guys who deserved the same package. Then comes the RDO (Racial Discrimination Ordinance) where a person cannot be discriminated against due their racial background. CX pilots argued that the company cannot pay the local guys less with reference to the RDO. So what did the moral management guys do? They LOWERED the package to the local terms instead of raising it to that of the larger pilot base. They did this in a year of record profits. And the guys in charge are raping in massive bonuses as a result: a few of them pilots themselves like that scum RH. Nice guys, huh?
So, it's not about the "cadetships" as such, it's what they do to the airline and profession and the calibre of person they attract. CX lowered the FFS (full flight sim) training from 12 sessions for pre iCadet new joiners (when they came with thousands of hours experience) to now just 6 for the virgin CPL kiddies. Greedy cost cutting in a place where they of all people deserve better and more training. Penny pinching, bonus hunting, greedy, immoral managers lining their own pockets at the expense of safety and training.
You believe I got "lucky" as I was able to find an airline that still pays well, and that I was willing to move overseas. That is not correct. By getting lucky it assumes I left things to chance. I flew what I had to, where I had to, worked damn hard and studied probably harder. I left nothing to luck or chance. My logbook, experience and study placed me in a competitive position to apply and be offered such jobs - nothing more than the former breed of CX direct entry guys did. The airline I'm with need(ed) direct entry guys with a few thousand hours experience to meet there requirements. I had that experience and so was able to apply. Go onto the recruitment agency websites and look at the number of jobs being advertised if you have the experience. No luck involved, just a lot of hard work and dedication.
As I've said many times, if you have your own hours in your log book you own your destiny. Otherwise you have massive "boundaries" due the chains of bond, license (P2X) and inexperience. Kids here bank on the lowering of the profession as a means to get in, not raising their own credentials to make themselves more qualified and attractive to an airline. These cadetships exist as a cost cutting and money making exercise, not as a safe let alone moral way to run a company. You either choose to part of the solution or part of the problem. Think about it. If a guy needs the disgraceful lowering of the job and the qualified guys to turn their back on the airline as a means to be hired it says more about his character and those behind it than anything else.
This is just my opinion but based on experience as a once wannabe to widebody airline pilot. You seem like a guy able to listen and make your own educated judgement. What a relief.
My angst (and so well put by STP as being quixotic in nature) is not against "cadetships". It's against the lowering of the standards, remuneration and the overall profession/industry. Look at QF. They've had decades of a successful cadetship course. No, the pilots were never as well qualified as the direct entry guys but they did not lower the terms and conditions of the airline or industry. Many airlines offer cadetships. As a ballpark figure the CX iCadetship lowers pilot remuneration by approximately 60% when you look at the long term picture. That's a massive amount. And now look at the calibre of ignoramus it therefore attracts.... The guys with the experience and credentials walk away in droves. The package now attracts what we have here: the likes of no.boundaries. Previously the minimum recruitment standards and competition for places weeded out such cases. They exist because they are what's left over and what is cheapest - all at the degeneration of the airline and profession.
CX pilots were seeking that ALL pilots, local and expat, receive the same remuneration package. They wanted to support the local guys who deserved the same package. Then comes the RDO (Racial Discrimination Ordinance) where a person cannot be discriminated against due their racial background. CX pilots argued that the company cannot pay the local guys less with reference to the RDO. So what did the moral management guys do? They LOWERED the package to the local terms instead of raising it to that of the larger pilot base. They did this in a year of record profits. And the guys in charge are raping in massive bonuses as a result: a few of them pilots themselves like that scum RH. Nice guys, huh?
So, it's not about the "cadetships" as such, it's what they do to the airline and profession and the calibre of person they attract. CX lowered the FFS (full flight sim) training from 12 sessions for pre iCadet new joiners (when they came with thousands of hours experience) to now just 6 for the virgin CPL kiddies. Greedy cost cutting in a place where they of all people deserve better and more training. Penny pinching, bonus hunting, greedy, immoral managers lining their own pockets at the expense of safety and training.
You believe I got "lucky" as I was able to find an airline that still pays well, and that I was willing to move overseas. That is not correct. By getting lucky it assumes I left things to chance. I flew what I had to, where I had to, worked damn hard and studied probably harder. I left nothing to luck or chance. My logbook, experience and study placed me in a competitive position to apply and be offered such jobs - nothing more than the former breed of CX direct entry guys did. The airline I'm with need(ed) direct entry guys with a few thousand hours experience to meet there requirements. I had that experience and so was able to apply. Go onto the recruitment agency websites and look at the number of jobs being advertised if you have the experience. No luck involved, just a lot of hard work and dedication.
As I've said many times, if you have your own hours in your log book you own your destiny. Otherwise you have massive "boundaries" due the chains of bond, license (P2X) and inexperience. Kids here bank on the lowering of the profession as a means to get in, not raising their own credentials to make themselves more qualified and attractive to an airline. These cadetships exist as a cost cutting and money making exercise, not as a safe let alone moral way to run a company. You either choose to part of the solution or part of the problem. Think about it. If a guy needs the disgraceful lowering of the job and the qualified guys to turn their back on the airline as a means to be hired it says more about his character and those behind it than anything else.
This is just my opinion but based on experience as a once wannabe to widebody airline pilot. You seem like a guy able to listen and make your own educated judgement. What a relief.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 2nd Sep 2012 at 02:01.