CX/FTA Instructor Secondment
Join Date: Jun 2005
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404 Titan-
I know that I am not as experienced as you are in the aviation industry, but I can also assure you that I didn't arrive at YPPF with zero experience either. In fact, the cadetship is not even my first job as a professional pilot.
Anyway, I think somehow you have mistaken the intend of my post. I was not trying to say that one way was better than the other. I was merely pointing out some of the things where applicants for the program need to consider.
In fact, I agree with almost everything you said. These are things that are universal to the aviation industry. What you said and what I said didn't contradict each other. I was just stating the specifics for the program, while you were looking at the bigger picture.
This program is targeted at people with little or no experience in the aviation industry, and they simply might not have considered some of the things we've brought up. I want them to be able to make an informed decision.
For me, if you give me 6 years, I would much rather spend 2 years instructing and 4 years at a regional, then 6 years instructing. I would have less risk of something going wrong, as statistically, airline flying is the safest way to fly, while GA is 9 times more dangerous. I would also have accumulated more experience by the end of that period of time. On a personal level, I sure as hell would have enjoyed carrying people around doing 5 sectors a day, more than I would have enjoyed doing stalls and steep turns all day.
If I were(am) to be given a choice, I wouldn't have taken it. If I wanted the expat package, I would have hung on for a few more years and applied as a DESO. There are reasons why I didn't, but that's another story.
Of course, I am not too familiar with the GA/regionals situation in Australia. I was speaking from my experience from the few years I've spent in the US.
I think this is a good program overall as well, especially with the scholarship. It gives more people more opportunity than before. My conclusion remain the same tho: figure out what the compromises are worth at a personal and professional level, and act accordingly.
P.S. I've just read your reply for HYG, and I think you would understand my point of view if you know my prior experiences.
HYG-
Thanks for sticking up for me! Hope all is well and you will pass your you-know-what without much fuzz!
I know that I am not as experienced as you are in the aviation industry, but I can also assure you that I didn't arrive at YPPF with zero experience either. In fact, the cadetship is not even my first job as a professional pilot.
Anyway, I think somehow you have mistaken the intend of my post. I was not trying to say that one way was better than the other. I was merely pointing out some of the things where applicants for the program need to consider.
In fact, I agree with almost everything you said. These are things that are universal to the aviation industry. What you said and what I said didn't contradict each other. I was just stating the specifics for the program, while you were looking at the bigger picture.
This program is targeted at people with little or no experience in the aviation industry, and they simply might not have considered some of the things we've brought up. I want them to be able to make an informed decision.
For me, if you give me 6 years, I would much rather spend 2 years instructing and 4 years at a regional, then 6 years instructing. I would have less risk of something going wrong, as statistically, airline flying is the safest way to fly, while GA is 9 times more dangerous. I would also have accumulated more experience by the end of that period of time. On a personal level, I sure as hell would have enjoyed carrying people around doing 5 sectors a day, more than I would have enjoyed doing stalls and steep turns all day.
If I were(am) to be given a choice, I wouldn't have taken it. If I wanted the expat package, I would have hung on for a few more years and applied as a DESO. There are reasons why I didn't, but that's another story.
Of course, I am not too familiar with the GA/regionals situation in Australia. I was speaking from my experience from the few years I've spent in the US.
I think this is a good program overall as well, especially with the scholarship. It gives more people more opportunity than before. My conclusion remain the same tho: figure out what the compromises are worth at a personal and professional level, and act accordingly.
P.S. I've just read your reply for HYG, and I think you would understand my point of view if you know my prior experiences.
HYG-
Thanks for sticking up for me! Hope all is well and you will pass your you-know-what without much fuzz!
sgsslok
Mate I do apologise if I came over as a bit harsh. That was never my intention. We all have to make decisions based on personal, financial etc reasons and I have no problems with the direction you have taken. One thing I have learnt though through this job is that you must look at it from the big picture point of view. Trying to micro manage your career will drive you insane. You must look at all the variables and do what is best for you at the time.
Having said all that and I may be wrong, (I haven’t read all the posts here), but I get the impression that some here, i.e. existing cadets and instructors may be very bitter because this wasn’t offered to them? While I do feel sorry for them the reality is that this scheme wasn’t on offer when they signed up. It’s really no different to someone who bought a car yesterday finding out today the same dealer is offering a thousand dollar discount plus a free tank of fuel. Would they be pissed off? You bet they would. Should they get the discount and free tank of fuel too? No. “Caveat emptor”, Let the buyer beware.
Mate I do apologise if I came over as a bit harsh. That was never my intention. We all have to make decisions based on personal, financial etc reasons and I have no problems with the direction you have taken. One thing I have learnt though through this job is that you must look at it from the big picture point of view. Trying to micro manage your career will drive you insane. You must look at all the variables and do what is best for you at the time.
Having said all that and I may be wrong, (I haven’t read all the posts here), but I get the impression that some here, i.e. existing cadets and instructors may be very bitter because this wasn’t offered to them? While I do feel sorry for them the reality is that this scheme wasn’t on offer when they signed up. It’s really no different to someone who bought a car yesterday finding out today the same dealer is offering a thousand dollar discount plus a free tank of fuel. Would they be pissed off? You bet they would. Should they get the discount and free tank of fuel too? No. “Caveat emptor”, Let the buyer beware.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Get your own qualifications, be your own man(or woman). This will ensure better all round experience IMO. Don't waste your youth by over committing to CX and HK before you have a chance to figure out the world that awaits. Always be free to move and choose your own terms as much as possible. Aviation is changing at a rapid pace now and for the foreseeable future. Take advantage of many available choices. Always remember, there is more to life than shiny jets, trust me.
willnotcomply
I seem to recall a couple of cadets recently quitting just after they arrived in HK from ADL and going off the HKA. Remember bonding in HK is illegal.
I seem to recall a couple of cadets recently quitting just after they arrived in HK from ADL and going off the HKA. Remember bonding in HK is illegal.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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So then loyalty must be very important to Cx when hiring cadets. So it makes me wonder though, why don't most cadets leave after getting a type rating? Atleast then they get full benefits. One of my friends told me Cx couldn't care less if you applied again after quitting just after the cadet program since Cx is a business and if they need you, you'll get hired. Or is that never the case?
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Instructor age...
Just a quick post about this whole issue of an instructor's age. I completed my CPL down in South Africa last year at age 32. My instructors ranged in age from 22 to 27. Never was I concerned about their experience or ability to fly. Some of the younger ones did seem a bit immature in terms of general conversation, which was at times a little irritating, but when it comes to the flying itself, it doesn't matter if you're 22 or 222 - you know that instructing is a responsibility and you therefore you act in a responsible manner. An instructor with half a brain is not going to put his life - and that of his student - at risk.
At my age I have to say this scholarship scheme is very appealing. Yes, I won't be far off 40 when I finish at FTA, but coming in at my age beggars can't be choosers and I'll take what I can get. Hong Kong is home for me and if something like this means that I will end up staying in the Territory after 42 months (not guaranteed, accepted) then that suits me. It may seem unfair to some of the cadets, and I appreciate that, but just think - some years back a HK pilot that paid his own way through training would have been very annoyed to see that CX started the Cadet scheme the following year. That's life. As they say,
happens.
At my age I have to say this scholarship scheme is very appealing. Yes, I won't be far off 40 when I finish at FTA, but coming in at my age beggars can't be choosers and I'll take what I can get. Hong Kong is home for me and if something like this means that I will end up staying in the Territory after 42 months (not guaranteed, accepted) then that suits me. It may seem unfair to some of the cadets, and I appreciate that, but just think - some years back a HK pilot that paid his own way through training would have been very annoyed to see that CX started the Cadet scheme the following year. That's life. As they say,
happens.
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Nothing yet. The registration form wasn't that in depth. Just basically asked what type of licence you hold (night rating VFR, CIR) but no mention of how many hours you had under your belt.
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An instructor with half a brain is not going to put his life - and that of his student - at risk.
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
you'd be living off somewhat horrible wages for 4-5 years. It's going to hurt.
I'd have to disagree. For those starting out, just like I did, is was good pay and great experience. It didn't hurt one bit!
Quote:
I'm 19 and from what I've seen, no one likes getting taught by someone too young
Many instructors at FTA (and other companies) past and present, are younger than their students and there was never a problem.
you'd be living off somewhat horrible wages for 4-5 years. It's going to hurt.
I'd have to disagree. For those starting out, just like I did, is was good pay and great experience. It didn't hurt one bit!
Quote:
I'm 19 and from what I've seen, no one likes getting taught by someone too young
Many instructors at FTA (and other companies) past and present, are younger than their students and there was never a problem.
Really, okay then. Canadians must be really different then. Or maybe it's just like that when it comes to Asian instructors.
Just a side note, after 5 years at FTA I would expect that with the hours they fly annually, even without this program you would be eligible for an SO CX position anyway. The only difference I can see is that you have already done your interview before you start, so you know the job is yours once your time is up. And either way you'd be an expat, so by definition if you're an expat you'd certainly expect to get expat benefits...
Again, as far as I see, the only difference is that you've done the interview, which by the looks of it you MUST PASS before being hired. Then you do the time working at FTA, and when the times is up, doing the max hours a year they seem to expect, youd certainly be more than eligible to apply. But, from day one you know the job is yours unless CX go bust. Don't quite understand how that annoys cadets, but anyway.
Again, as far as I see, the only difference is that you've done the interview, which by the looks of it you MUST PASS before being hired. Then you do the time working at FTA, and when the times is up, doing the max hours a year they seem to expect, youd certainly be more than eligible to apply. But, from day one you know the job is yours unless CX go bust. Don't quite understand how that annoys cadets, but anyway.
If you think about it another way peter, if an instructor just finishing their 4 years and a cadet just finishing their course both start at CX on the same course, which one has more real time command flying experience???
I can see how the seniority number issue would annoy some, but I don't believe that theres anything else about this program that is unfair to the instructor or the cadet. Could be wrong, as I don't have any first hand info, just calling it as I see it.
I can see how the seniority number issue would annoy some, but I don't believe that theres anything else about this program that is unfair to the instructor or the cadet. Could be wrong, as I don't have any first hand info, just calling it as I see it.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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There is currently a group of applicants at FTA at the moment, going through the first stage of interviews.
I am not sure if they are applying for the long course or the short course, since I haven't conversed with them.
From what I heard from others, it seems that they are planning to hire 10 of them.
On the side note, the rumor that a few CX cadets jumped shipped after they went back to HKG from ADL was not true. There were a couple of FTA private cadets who have joined Hong Kong Express, and that might be the cause of confusion!
I am not sure if they are applying for the long course or the short course, since I haven't conversed with them.
From what I heard from others, it seems that they are planning to hire 10 of them.
On the side note, the rumor that a few CX cadets jumped shipped after they went back to HKG from ADL was not true. There were a couple of FTA private cadets who have joined Hong Kong Express, and that might be the cause of confusion!
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On the side note, the rumor that a few CX cadets jumped shipped after they went back to HKG from ADL was not true. There were a couple of FTA private cadets who have joined Hong Kong Express, and that might be the cause of confusion!
How could those cadets joined HKE with limited experience??
btw,
i applied the short one, waiting for reply.
is there any way u can tell when they are going to invite us for interview or selection??
thz!
How could those cadets joined HKE with limited experience??
btw,
i applied the short one, waiting for reply.
is there any way u can tell when they are going to invite us for interview or selection??
thz!
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Here's Take 2 of the (revised) scheme:
It's a "unique scheme for young people", i.e. "individuals who have little or no prior flying experience". (So gone are the instructor-only scholarships : the commercially experienced need not apply.)
"Successful candidates will be asked to contribute A$30,000 - A$35,000."
"Flight Screening will comprise of a 7 to 10 sortie flying program designed to assess a candidates’ potential to assimilate training in terms of their rate of learning and retention of learning in an airborne environment."
"For candidates with less than 20 hour previous experience they will undergo the 7-sortie program and the cost will be A$867 incl. GST. For candidates with more than 20 hours previous flying experience an extended 10-sortie program is required and the cost to the candidate will be A$1059 incl. GST."
Closing time is 0000 hrs LMT CST on 13/04/08. Read it all at:
http://www.flighttrainingadelaide.co...arship-welcome
It's a "unique scheme for young people", i.e. "individuals who have little or no prior flying experience". (So gone are the instructor-only scholarships : the commercially experienced need not apply.)
"Successful candidates will be asked to contribute A$30,000 - A$35,000."
"Flight Screening will comprise of a 7 to 10 sortie flying program designed to assess a candidates’ potential to assimilate training in terms of their rate of learning and retention of learning in an airborne environment."
"For candidates with less than 20 hour previous experience they will undergo the 7-sortie program and the cost will be A$867 incl. GST. For candidates with more than 20 hours previous flying experience an extended 10-sortie program is required and the cost to the candidate will be A$1059 incl. GST."
Closing time is 0000 hrs LMT CST on 13/04/08. Read it all at:
http://www.flighttrainingadelaide.co...arship-welcome
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I just had a read of the website and the course content, it seems that it might not be as great as i had thought initially...After getting the Grade 2, thats where your seniority number is allocated to you, not earlier as i had suspected and also, you have to give back 42months to FTA AFTER you get your grade 2.
The whole process from starting at FTA until you get to Hong Kong: 65 weeks for training, possibly upto another 1-2years to get to grade 2, another almost 4 years after Grade Two. Thats 6years minimum, maybe upto 7years before you get to come to hong kong and then spend upto 3years as a Second Officer before upgrading to FO.
Seems to me that for shorter time period you could do your flight training, get a job and work for less than 4 years and then apply to CX...just me thinking out aloud
The whole process from starting at FTA until you get to Hong Kong: 65 weeks for training, possibly upto another 1-2years to get to grade 2, another almost 4 years after Grade Two. Thats 6years minimum, maybe upto 7years before you get to come to hong kong and then spend upto 3years as a Second Officer before upgrading to FO.
Seems to me that for shorter time period you could do your flight training, get a job and work for less than 4 years and then apply to CX...just me thinking out aloud
azamat69
Why include the training time? We all had to go through that. Compared to some already in CX, 65 weeks is short.
Actually it is more like six months.
3.5 years to be exact.
Again you’re distorting the figures to suite your argument by including the training time. The minimum ROS to FTA after you have completed your instructors rating is 4 years, i.e. 6 months to achieve Grade 2 then 3.5 years secondment back to FTA. The average DESO in CX today has in excess of 3000 hours total experience and 1000 hours turbine when they join. They have generally spent 5-10 years in GA, a large proportion of this in the bush living in sh*t conditions on sh*t pay. They are probably also trying to pay off a loan in excess of AUD$60,000.00 which they used to pay for their license in the first place. From my perspective to have most of your training paid for then have a guaranteed job, first in GA and then in CX as a bonus, not to mention being able to live in a capital city.
As we all know upgrade times can’t be guaranteed, but based on the length of time it is taking DESO’s to upgrade today (3 years from DOJ), you would spend one year as an SO.
The whole process from starting at FTA until you get to Hong Kong: 65 weeks for training,
possibly upto another 1-2years to get to grade 2,
CIVIL AVIATION ORDERS
SECTION 40.1.7
4.2 An applicant for the issue of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 2 must:
(a) hold or have held a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 3 for at least 6 months; and
(b) have logged at least 200 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a
recognised aeroplane, instructing in other than the navigational sequences
specified in the aeroplane syllabus that are relevant to the private pilot
(aeroplane) licence; and
(c) have logged at least 50 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a
recognised aeroplane, instructing in navigational sequences specified in the
aeroplane syllabus; and
(d) be recommended by the chief flying instructor; and
(e) have passed a flight test conducted by CASA, an approved testing officer
or an approved person in accordance with the Grade 2 instructor rating
flight test report form.
SECTION 40.1.7
4.2 An applicant for the issue of a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 2 must:
(a) hold or have held a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating grade 3 for at least 6 months; and
(b) have logged at least 200 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a
recognised aeroplane, instructing in other than the navigational sequences
specified in the aeroplane syllabus that are relevant to the private pilot
(aeroplane) licence; and
(c) have logged at least 50 hours flight time, in a registered aeroplane or a
recognised aeroplane, instructing in navigational sequences specified in the
aeroplane syllabus; and
(d) be recommended by the chief flying instructor; and
(e) have passed a flight test conducted by CASA, an approved testing officer
or an approved person in accordance with the Grade 2 instructor rating
flight test report form.
another almost 4 years after Grade Two.
Thats 6years minimum, maybe upto 7years before you get to come to hong kong
and then spend upto 3years as a Second Officer before upgrading to FO.
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404,
Looks like i rattled your cage, all i was trying to do was give the guys and gals an idea of what sort of period of time they were looking at, so they can make up there own minds if this was a good deal or not. Sure there are alot of pilots in every airline that has had to go bush bashing to get the time under there belts, and had to work for free to get there, i did it just like alot of guys but it doesnt necessarily make me a better pilot than someone who is going to go through this FTA system.
And your numbers, whilst i agree that some are more accurate than mine, to have a go at me over 6months i think is a bit extreme but hey the more accurate the better for the ones looking at this thread.
To me it seems that you dont agree with airline pilots being instructors only when they join and if this is the case, i have flown with quite a few of the guys from FTA and they are all top class pilots. Some have never touched a turbine or jet plane but hey does it really matter at the end? I dont think so, but again its just my own opinion. All of them have also passed through there Command courses with no problems whilst other very experienced guys have failed.
Looks like i rattled your cage, all i was trying to do was give the guys and gals an idea of what sort of period of time they were looking at, so they can make up there own minds if this was a good deal or not. Sure there are alot of pilots in every airline that has had to go bush bashing to get the time under there belts, and had to work for free to get there, i did it just like alot of guys but it doesnt necessarily make me a better pilot than someone who is going to go through this FTA system.
And your numbers, whilst i agree that some are more accurate than mine, to have a go at me over 6months i think is a bit extreme but hey the more accurate the better for the ones looking at this thread.
To me it seems that you dont agree with airline pilots being instructors only when they join and if this is the case, i have flown with quite a few of the guys from FTA and they are all top class pilots. Some have never touched a turbine or jet plane but hey does it really matter at the end? I dont think so, but again its just my own opinion. All of them have also passed through there Command courses with no problems whilst other very experienced guys have failed.