CRM....and why?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRM....and why?
i have long been considering this topic and would like some advice from others.
to me, it seems like quite a silly and pointless topic.it all seems like it is done in hindsight and is unable to solve the problems before they actually happen.
in my own experience, all the captains i have flown with have no idea what is actually going on. sometimes i wander if they are still alive half the time as we sit there in the long cruise.
i recall flying once with an african gentleman, who although he could fly he told me that he had no idea what we should actually be doing, as far as S.O.P's etc etc...he said he just wanted to get back to his 3 wives and do the business with them. i asked him what he thought about CRM and he said he thought i was a load of rubbish and that flying a plane was just like milking his cows, something that with practice comes right. i guess he was talking about the whole co-ordination thing, left tite, right tite...
anyway,if you have some views i would like to hear them...
to me, it seems like quite a silly and pointless topic.it all seems like it is done in hindsight and is unable to solve the problems before they actually happen.
in my own experience, all the captains i have flown with have no idea what is actually going on. sometimes i wander if they are still alive half the time as we sit there in the long cruise.
i recall flying once with an african gentleman, who although he could fly he told me that he had no idea what we should actually be doing, as far as S.O.P's etc etc...he said he just wanted to get back to his 3 wives and do the business with them. i asked him what he thought about CRM and he said he thought i was a load of rubbish and that flying a plane was just like milking his cows, something that with practice comes right. i guess he was talking about the whole co-ordination thing, left tite, right tite...
anyway,if you have some views i would like to hear them...
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
General...
Good topic...so much talk of it all the time and yet its all a load of guys who cant fly anyway coming up with stuff that really doesnt make the important things in a cockpit flow any better. On the contrary added work load to remember the correct calls...like that is important! Is it on or armed or engaged...who cares...its not important!
Why not just stick to basics and fly the bloody thing. General as for your experience with previous captains...what good is CRM to **** pilot! SOPs???
Check lists also to me are just added workload. Maybe for those who cant remember what to do it might be a good thing to remind them. But half the time that is what the guy in the right is there for anyway!
What were you flying with the african gentleman?
I just reckon stick to flying the thing and also practise makes perfect!
Good topic...so much talk of it all the time and yet its all a load of guys who cant fly anyway coming up with stuff that really doesnt make the important things in a cockpit flow any better. On the contrary added work load to remember the correct calls...like that is important! Is it on or armed or engaged...who cares...its not important!
Why not just stick to basics and fly the bloody thing. General as for your experience with previous captains...what good is CRM to **** pilot! SOPs???
Check lists also to me are just added workload. Maybe for those who cant remember what to do it might be a good thing to remind them. But half the time that is what the guy in the right is there for anyway!
What were you flying with the african gentleman?
I just reckon stick to flying the thing and also practise makes perfect!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
finnished...
i agree with you 100% on the checklist issue....when i am flying i never have time for it. actually, i find it makes a nice straight edge for me to use when i am doing some drawings in flight. i really enjoy technical drawing and i have designed my own house while in the air and i have always struggled to find a straight edge. so, i suppose the checklist does have some uses.
as far as the african gentleman, he was one of those rather large guys who struggled to climb into his seat, and the stench as he lifted his arms to seat himself was unbareable. he could fly fairly well, although he did say to me that he did not finish his training fully, but i could see that he new most of what he had to do so it did not bother me too much. in his spair time he was a dairy farmer and would bring me in milk before we were rostered to fly together. i recall, he would never drink anything on the flight from the hostees, but rather stick with a large empty whiskey bottle filled with his own milk. not actually his own, but from his cows.
i do believe that these people who teach CRM are just on a big money spinner. they seem to be making good money for a subject which in my opinion has no place in the cockpit...all this jargon, controlled flight into terrain etc etc, obviously those guys werent paying enough attention to their tv screens.
thanks for your reply, very interesting though...
i agree with you 100% on the checklist issue....when i am flying i never have time for it. actually, i find it makes a nice straight edge for me to use when i am doing some drawings in flight. i really enjoy technical drawing and i have designed my own house while in the air and i have always struggled to find a straight edge. so, i suppose the checklist does have some uses.
as far as the african gentleman, he was one of those rather large guys who struggled to climb into his seat, and the stench as he lifted his arms to seat himself was unbareable. he could fly fairly well, although he did say to me that he did not finish his training fully, but i could see that he new most of what he had to do so it did not bother me too much. in his spair time he was a dairy farmer and would bring me in milk before we were rostered to fly together. i recall, he would never drink anything on the flight from the hostees, but rather stick with a large empty whiskey bottle filled with his own milk. not actually his own, but from his cows.
i do believe that these people who teach CRM are just on a big money spinner. they seem to be making good money for a subject which in my opinion has no place in the cockpit...all this jargon, controlled flight into terrain etc etc, obviously those guys werent paying enough attention to their tv screens.
thanks for your reply, very interesting though...
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
General...
Well good to hear that you dont have to fly with that fellow any longer. Sounds like he was just there as a passenger anyway.
The CRM definately is a money making scheme...I mean why on earth would you have to spend good money $200-300 per year to have some monkey tell you that to say closed instead of shut is the way it should be done. As far as I am concerned I am the boss when the whine starts and what I say or how I say it is up to me...depending on the day. To me there is no diffence in closed or shut. They both mean the same...
So I would rather spend the money on a couple colds one on the turn around! Flying has become a ridiculously expensive hobbie/carreer. I dont know how anyone can find the money to keep licenses current and do medicals and still manage to save up for different ratings to progress.
We are underpaid as is and now we are meant to start paying for social meetings with Mr. CRM to learn proper grammar. Doesnt fit my budget!!!
General where you flying now?
As for the controlled flight into terrain...you dont take a gap that is too small!
Well good to hear that you dont have to fly with that fellow any longer. Sounds like he was just there as a passenger anyway.
The CRM definately is a money making scheme...I mean why on earth would you have to spend good money $200-300 per year to have some monkey tell you that to say closed instead of shut is the way it should be done. As far as I am concerned I am the boss when the whine starts and what I say or how I say it is up to me...depending on the day. To me there is no diffence in closed or shut. They both mean the same...
So I would rather spend the money on a couple colds one on the turn around! Flying has become a ridiculously expensive hobbie/carreer. I dont know how anyone can find the money to keep licenses current and do medicals and still manage to save up for different ratings to progress.
We are underpaid as is and now we are meant to start paying for social meetings with Mr. CRM to learn proper grammar. Doesnt fit my budget!!!
General where you flying now?
As for the controlled flight into terrain...you dont take a gap that is too small!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Heart
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd like to point out to you two that it's the people who can't see the point who need it most and that they never get the message.
So the point of CRM training, as far as you are concerned, is for guys like us to learn how to deal with guys like you.
Now go crawl back into your caves!
So the point of CRM training, as far as you are concerned, is for guys like us to learn how to deal with guys like you.
Now go crawl back into your caves!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
is it not possible for 2 people to be on line at the same time and be writing replies to eachother.
why the negativity?
i find it quite entertaining to hear how things happen in different parts of the world.
and lets remember the name of this site, rumour network, i sometimes think people take this all a bit too seriously!
its not a crime to laugh.
why the negativity?
i find it quite entertaining to hear how things happen in different parts of the world.
and lets remember the name of this site, rumour network, i sometimes think people take this all a bit too seriously!
its not a crime to laugh.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Idunno - well spotted, it's the same person I agree.
Nutcase ?? Tw*t more like, to use a good old fashioned english word
not a very useful contribution White knight..try concentrating on the problem instead of the person.
hawk
Nutcase ?? Tw*t more like, to use a good old fashioned english word
not a very useful contribution White knight..try concentrating on the problem instead of the person.
hawk
Last edited by Hawk; 8th Jun 2003 at 15:31.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Back in AFRICA!!
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey General!!!!
Im not FAT, I dont STINK and so what if Im African????
I at least get more tiet on my cow farm than you do.
Now CRM..mmmm.. "Cows Run a Muck !!!!!" Best I go milk em and go sign on hey. See you there!
By the way are we Bamako Night stop or Dakar??
G8...I mean 4G..
I at least get more tiet on my cow farm than you do.
Now CRM..mmmm.. "Cows Run a Muck !!!!!" Best I go milk em and go sign on hey. See you there!
By the way are we Bamako Night stop or Dakar??
G8...I mean 4G..
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re CRM
Getting back to the topic on hand....
I've only recently done a CRM course (not even needing it yet, but rather getting it out of the way) and I seem to think that it has its good points, and bad points.
Recently I was speaking with an ex Air Canada supervisor who said that back prior to CRM the only time you spoke in the cockpit was in cruise and/or during an emergency situation. No call outs for speed, altitude or checklists "...that sort of BS."
From that I gather you can say that CRM is bad in the fact that yes it adds workload to an already demanding job (ie a VOR approach AT minimums at night worst case I know) but its good in the fact that it allows crews some common ground. Not much, but I personally would rather fly knowing 9/10ths to a degree of what will happen next, than the seat of the pants flying that I have seen around.
As for the checklists. Well. I have my own thoughts, but Ill keep those for a later date!
I've only recently done a CRM course (not even needing it yet, but rather getting it out of the way) and I seem to think that it has its good points, and bad points.
Recently I was speaking with an ex Air Canada supervisor who said that back prior to CRM the only time you spoke in the cockpit was in cruise and/or during an emergency situation. No call outs for speed, altitude or checklists "...that sort of BS."
From that I gather you can say that CRM is bad in the fact that yes it adds workload to an already demanding job (ie a VOR approach AT minimums at night worst case I know) but its good in the fact that it allows crews some common ground. Not much, but I personally would rather fly knowing 9/10ths to a degree of what will happen next, than the seat of the pants flying that I have seen around.
As for the checklists. Well. I have my own thoughts, but Ill keep those for a later date!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: babylon
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find this topic quite amazing.
There seems to be several 'seasoned' pilots responding to these points in a rather strange way.
Infact, I thought the person who initially started the post was asking for other peoples' views on the topic and not an interrogation into their use of the cases of the English language, at what time they made their points.
Anyway, I too have recently done a CRM yearly refresher, and one of the most important points I was taught was:
Do not let things out of your control or influence upset you or cause you to become angry.
I find it makes my life a lot easier by following this, and I wander if maybe a few of you guys should perhaps adopt such a method?
There seems to be several 'seasoned' pilots responding to these points in a rather strange way.
Infact, I thought the person who initially started the post was asking for other peoples' views on the topic and not an interrogation into their use of the cases of the English language, at what time they made their points.
Anyway, I too have recently done a CRM yearly refresher, and one of the most important points I was taught was:
Do not let things out of your control or influence upset you or cause you to become angry.
I find it makes my life a lot easier by following this, and I wander if maybe a few of you guys should perhaps adopt such a method?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: A very Dark Place
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
garryaction -
'responding in a strange way?'.....'Do not let things out of your control or influence upset you or cause you to become angry'. This IS the FUN of flying. And if you don't believe me, just try and imagine flying without it!
south coast -
It is a crime to laugh. Just ask Pratsimum, or some such, on PPrune. In fact I think that Pratsimum masquearades as Miserlou from time to time. So, be careful.
I am not even going to venture near questioning why Finnished is actually foolish enough to pay for a CRM course. (Finnished, PM me if you would like any tips on how 'not to pay' for your CRM course).
'responding in a strange way?'.....'Do not let things out of your control or influence upset you or cause you to become angry'. This IS the FUN of flying. And if you don't believe me, just try and imagine flying without it!
south coast -
It is a crime to laugh. Just ask Pratsimum, or some such, on PPrune. In fact I think that Pratsimum masquearades as Miserlou from time to time. So, be careful.
I am not even going to venture near questioning why Finnished is actually foolish enough to pay for a CRM course. (Finnished, PM me if you would like any tips on how 'not to pay' for your CRM course).
CAUTION
Guest
Posts: n/a
CRM is like Drunks and Alcoholics.
The smart and surviving ones take the counceling.
One classic comment locally was,
"I am the Instructor here, you do it MY way, and you need to brush up on your CRM skills -----?????
It's a big world full of differences, difficulties, idiots and unhappyness.
Nil barstardum carborundum.
The smart and surviving ones take the counceling.
One classic comment locally was,
"I am the Instructor here, you do it MY way, and you need to brush up on your CRM skills -----?????
It's a big world full of differences, difficulties, idiots and unhappyness.
Nil barstardum carborundum.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I see it, it is premeditated osmosis ...
As soon as there is an abundant supply of CRM mentatlity
[which may take some time, as even Religion is taking some time]
... we will no longer have to worry about threats to civilization .. the CRM mentality will simply be exported to bubble over the affected areas, and civility will result .. .. .. .. like applying cash to politicians .. .. .. .. [wish it would work in China?]...
Or perhaps it is just the polish on the apple?
I assume it is in the same vein, and, I think, in all events should do no harm ... ... ... ...
Regards to those in harms way ... we send you our thoughts.
[which may take some time, as even Religion is taking some time]
... we will no longer have to worry about threats to civilization .. the CRM mentality will simply be exported to bubble over the affected areas, and civility will result .. .. .. .. like applying cash to politicians .. .. .. .. [wish it would work in China?]...
Or perhaps it is just the polish on the apple?
I assume it is in the same vein, and, I think, in all events should do no harm ... ... ... ...
Regards to those in harms way ... we send you our thoughts.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cradle of Mankind
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Garry Action
From what I have heard it is a pitty that you can't pole that plane as well as you can talk. Oh well as long as the pax shut the hell up and don't f*$@king touch anything!
Otherwise it was quite funny reading!
Nice one sssseye
PS you should be script writer!
Otherwise it was quite funny reading!
Nice one sssseye
PS you should be script writer!