What would you do?
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What would you do?
Your opinions please!
I am an 80hr PPL with a night rating, around 10hrs instrument, including several hours with a safety pilot in the US, flying IFR in genuine IMC, but I have no instrument qualification. Back home in the UK, I decide to make a short navigation trip to keep my skills current.
Conditions aren’t brilliant, but it’s flyable; OVC at 2,000’ and 5 miles visibility, and it’s forecast to improve. The MSA, for arguments sake, is 1,000’. I take off, and fly for around 20 minutes, but conditions are deteriorating, and I’m down to 1,500’ to stay VMC. I decide I’ve had enough, and turn back to go home. To my consternation, I find the cloudbase has been lowering behind me as well, and I soon find myself down at 800’. I can’t see any brighter areas, and I seem to be surrounded by ever-lowering cloud and reducing visibilty.
The nasty feeling in the pit of my stomach tells me I’m in trouble, and I feel I’m losing control of the situation. Would my safest option be:
(a) Squawk 7700, climb above MSA and into IMC, concentrate on flying straight & level, declare a PAN on 121.5 and ask D&D to guide me to an airfield in VMC. I know I’m not instrument qualified but this is fast becoming an emergency, and I’m confident I can manage straight & level in IMC, as well as simple manoeuvres.
(b) Attempt to continue VMC, using known line features (my home airfield is handily placed next to the M25) but knowing there are power transmission lines and high ground on the way, and that there are obstructions rising to 250’AGL ½ a mile off both ends of the main runway.
Fortunately, I’ve never been in this situation, but I do wonder what my actions would be if it did happen. I’ve deliberately left out option (c) – a precautionary landing in a field, as I specifically want to compare the merits of the ‘least worst’ option – scud running under a lowering cloudbase, or deliberate IMC entry when unqualified to do so.
The reason for all this navel gazing is that from recent AAIB reports, I get the impression there are more light aircraft accidents caused by CFIT in marginal VMC, than by people losing control after continuing (at safe altitude) into IMC.
(And yes, I know if I ever got myself into this situation I’d probably be pointed towards some, erm, ‘additional training’ of my flight planning skills!)
Any advice greatly appreciated.
I am an 80hr PPL with a night rating, around 10hrs instrument, including several hours with a safety pilot in the US, flying IFR in genuine IMC, but I have no instrument qualification. Back home in the UK, I decide to make a short navigation trip to keep my skills current.
Conditions aren’t brilliant, but it’s flyable; OVC at 2,000’ and 5 miles visibility, and it’s forecast to improve. The MSA, for arguments sake, is 1,000’. I take off, and fly for around 20 minutes, but conditions are deteriorating, and I’m down to 1,500’ to stay VMC. I decide I’ve had enough, and turn back to go home. To my consternation, I find the cloudbase has been lowering behind me as well, and I soon find myself down at 800’. I can’t see any brighter areas, and I seem to be surrounded by ever-lowering cloud and reducing visibilty.
The nasty feeling in the pit of my stomach tells me I’m in trouble, and I feel I’m losing control of the situation. Would my safest option be:
(a) Squawk 7700, climb above MSA and into IMC, concentrate on flying straight & level, declare a PAN on 121.5 and ask D&D to guide me to an airfield in VMC. I know I’m not instrument qualified but this is fast becoming an emergency, and I’m confident I can manage straight & level in IMC, as well as simple manoeuvres.
(b) Attempt to continue VMC, using known line features (my home airfield is handily placed next to the M25) but knowing there are power transmission lines and high ground on the way, and that there are obstructions rising to 250’AGL ½ a mile off both ends of the main runway.
Fortunately, I’ve never been in this situation, but I do wonder what my actions would be if it did happen. I’ve deliberately left out option (c) – a precautionary landing in a field, as I specifically want to compare the merits of the ‘least worst’ option – scud running under a lowering cloudbase, or deliberate IMC entry when unqualified to do so.
The reason for all this navel gazing is that from recent AAIB reports, I get the impression there are more light aircraft accidents caused by CFIT in marginal VMC, than by people losing control after continuing (at safe altitude) into IMC.
(And yes, I know if I ever got myself into this situation I’d probably be pointed towards some, erm, ‘additional training’ of my flight planning skills!)
Any advice greatly appreciated.
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Provided that you are competent on instruments then without a doubt your safest option would be to climb to a safe height, call for help and plead force majeure. As you say, expect a chat with the senior pilot and a few lessons on how to plan a flight using the current meteorological information.
I would emphasize though that you should be competent on instruments. Yes a lot of accidents due CFIT but quite a number with pilots not able to fly IR due a lack of training, the late John Kennedy jr. springs to mind.
I would emphasize though that you should be competent on instruments. Yes a lot of accidents due CFIT but quite a number with pilots not able to fly IR due a lack of training, the late John Kennedy jr. springs to mind.
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Tough choice for a pretty tough situation! I think after the above metioned reactions, I'd go down to 500 ft and limp home keeping eyes on the look out for wires. Mean while I'd contact App and inform them of the situation. If it got any worse I'd empty myself a little more, then I'd PAN. I'm sure the controllers would offer some advice if you made it clear you can't go IMC. After I'd made my PAN, I'd clim out and ask for vectors.
I've been in a similar situation, but I found the clouds acceptable at just under 500 ft. I also contacted several airfields and got a wx report just so I knew which direction to head if a div was needed.
Good luck, and I'd invest in a rating. I think everyone who fly for more that 20 minutes at a time should get one.
I've been in a similar situation, but I found the clouds acceptable at just under 500 ft. I also contacted several airfields and got a wx report just so I knew which direction to head if a div was needed.
Good luck, and I'd invest in a rating. I think everyone who fly for more that 20 minutes at a time should get one.
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Both options are extreme and equally unpalatable. I really don't know what the prang statistics are like in your country, but in this part of the world (ie not necessarily this particular country), there seems to be a pretty equal spread between CFIT due to "scud running" and deathly spiral dive due to spatial disorientation when trying to fly on instruments. With a total of 10 hours IF in your total flying, I'd say you know just enough to be a real hazard to yourself.
The (a) option might force you to remain in cloud for a very long time and there's no real guarantee that you'll find a hole that's big enough to be useful at the end of that time. A great deal of discipline and concentration is needed for instrument flight and, when you come right down to it, how well is the aeroplane equipped to deal with the situation? Do you know how to use pitot heat and any other anti-icing systems on the aeroplane? Do you know when and how to use carburettor heat, to prevent carby icing?
No, I don't believe that option (a) is a realistic option for you, in this circumstance.
Option (b) demands a high level of knowledge of the terrain all the way along the route, including any diversions necessitated by the weather. You are literally betting your life - and maybe the lives of other people on the ground - that you're not going to prang. And you will undoubtedly still need to know when and how to use the carby heat control.
Both of these scenarios involve prolonged stress. Have you stopped to consider how that could impair your judgement? Both scenarios require a high degree of concentration on keeping the aeroplane's shiny side up. And while you're concentrating on that, you're losing track of your remaining fuel. You could also be losing track of an otherwise effective monitoring of engine instruments that might warn you of other problems... such as carby icing.
I don't wnat to sound like I'm harping on that but, in most of the more elemental single engined aeroplanes, it's one of the major considerations that you need to keep in mind, especially in the situation that you've described.
But you could also be losing your situational awareness because of the need to concentrate on flying the aeroplane. Yes, flying the aeroplane IS the first rule in every situation, but it ain't the only one and it's the lack of attention to detail that is as likely to bring you unstuck.
To my mind, the only logical answer is what you have referred to as the "precautionary landing". Let there be no mistake here, the scenario you've described is an emergency. The landing is, therefore, not precautionary, it is an emergency landing that you are going to make in the first area that you see that looks big enough and solid enough for the purpose.
In all the years I've been flying - and that's quite a few - I've always believed that it's far better to be down on the ground, wishin you were up in the sky, than to be up in the sky wishing you were down on the ground. That latter case produces the loneliest, most helpless feelings imaginable... you can trust me on that.
The (a) option might force you to remain in cloud for a very long time and there's no real guarantee that you'll find a hole that's big enough to be useful at the end of that time. A great deal of discipline and concentration is needed for instrument flight and, when you come right down to it, how well is the aeroplane equipped to deal with the situation? Do you know how to use pitot heat and any other anti-icing systems on the aeroplane? Do you know when and how to use carburettor heat, to prevent carby icing?
No, I don't believe that option (a) is a realistic option for you, in this circumstance.
Option (b) demands a high level of knowledge of the terrain all the way along the route, including any diversions necessitated by the weather. You are literally betting your life - and maybe the lives of other people on the ground - that you're not going to prang. And you will undoubtedly still need to know when and how to use the carby heat control.
Both of these scenarios involve prolonged stress. Have you stopped to consider how that could impair your judgement? Both scenarios require a high degree of concentration on keeping the aeroplane's shiny side up. And while you're concentrating on that, you're losing track of your remaining fuel. You could also be losing track of an otherwise effective monitoring of engine instruments that might warn you of other problems... such as carby icing.
I don't wnat to sound like I'm harping on that but, in most of the more elemental single engined aeroplanes, it's one of the major considerations that you need to keep in mind, especially in the situation that you've described.
But you could also be losing your situational awareness because of the need to concentrate on flying the aeroplane. Yes, flying the aeroplane IS the first rule in every situation, but it ain't the only one and it's the lack of attention to detail that is as likely to bring you unstuck.
To my mind, the only logical answer is what you have referred to as the "precautionary landing". Let there be no mistake here, the scenario you've described is an emergency. The landing is, therefore, not precautionary, it is an emergency landing that you are going to make in the first area that you see that looks big enough and solid enough for the purpose.
In all the years I've been flying - and that's quite a few - I've always believed that it's far better to be down on the ground, wishin you were up in the sky, than to be up in the sky wishing you were down on the ground. That latter case produces the loneliest, most helpless feelings imaginable... you can trust me on that.
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Only you could make this decision. As many of us have found out it is a trap that is very easy to fall into. The first rule must be never to allow yourself to get into a situation from which there is no escape route.
Limits are just that. They are not something that has to define a persons operational choices. Indeed the margins allowed for error should be very wide indeed for those without a great deal of experience of operating any where near the legal limits.
weather forecasts are not universally accurate especially as they may apply locally. Airframes and engines are not always reliable. Humans as we know are most definitely not foolproof. Accepting the inherant risks, they still can be minimized by good planning, good judgment and good luck.
If you find yourself in a serious predicament the first priority is to save lives before considering anything else. If you are competent to operate in IMC ( and many have found out to their cost they aren't) then it doesn't matter which rules you break. You can answer to that later. Equally if you break the height rules to maintain VMC that may be the way to survive as a better choice.
Indeed there is no right or wrong answer. Only you can decide on the best course of action given the many variables. The clever aviator applies whatever criteria it takes to avoid finding themselves in these predicaments.
Limits are just that. They are not something that has to define a persons operational choices. Indeed the margins allowed for error should be very wide indeed for those without a great deal of experience of operating any where near the legal limits.
weather forecasts are not universally accurate especially as they may apply locally. Airframes and engines are not always reliable. Humans as we know are most definitely not foolproof. Accepting the inherant risks, they still can be minimized by good planning, good judgment and good luck.
If you find yourself in a serious predicament the first priority is to save lives before considering anything else. If you are competent to operate in IMC ( and many have found out to their cost they aren't) then it doesn't matter which rules you break. You can answer to that later. Equally if you break the height rules to maintain VMC that may be the way to survive as a better choice.
Indeed there is no right or wrong answer. Only you can decide on the best course of action given the many variables. The clever aviator applies whatever criteria it takes to avoid finding themselves in these predicaments.
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This situation is probably one faced by many inexperienced pilots, once in their careers. It’s nice to figure out what you’ll do from your armchair, when you’re in the cockpit, it’s not so easy.
A few year ago I found myself flying in circles at 300 ft just off the Scottish coast, wondering which of the 3 I’d take. I’d just over 100 hrs, a night rating, no IMC and knew just enough to be really dangerous.
The scud running option was a valley to the east, peaks in cloud both sides, could see a fair distance into it, but not enough room to turn if it was a dead end. No thanks.
Forced landing option was a marsh by the sea shore, the only terrain not rock-strewn in the area. Put it down there, gear up, I’d probably live. Decided no thanks.
I was just north of the Mull of Kintyre so I picked a heading to parallel the coast, 230 deg as far as I can remember, and climbed. I expected to be in the clear at maybe 3000 ft. I began to hear transmissions from Prestwick control at about 3500 ft, and continued climbing, rain beating on the windscreen. At 7000 ft I was still in the soup and feeling way out of my depth. Only then did I put out a pan call, and was guided into Prestwick by a very calm Scottish voice. The task of maintaining control in IMC took all of my concentration, to the extent that I continued to climb into controlled airspace hoping to break out on top long after I’d cleared the MSA.
Was it the right choice ? I think so. Taking off in the first place was not.
A few year ago I found myself flying in circles at 300 ft just off the Scottish coast, wondering which of the 3 I’d take. I’d just over 100 hrs, a night rating, no IMC and knew just enough to be really dangerous.
The scud running option was a valley to the east, peaks in cloud both sides, could see a fair distance into it, but not enough room to turn if it was a dead end. No thanks.
Forced landing option was a marsh by the sea shore, the only terrain not rock-strewn in the area. Put it down there, gear up, I’d probably live. Decided no thanks.
I was just north of the Mull of Kintyre so I picked a heading to parallel the coast, 230 deg as far as I can remember, and climbed. I expected to be in the clear at maybe 3000 ft. I began to hear transmissions from Prestwick control at about 3500 ft, and continued climbing, rain beating on the windscreen. At 7000 ft I was still in the soup and feeling way out of my depth. Only then did I put out a pan call, and was guided into Prestwick by a very calm Scottish voice. The task of maintaining control in IMC took all of my concentration, to the extent that I continued to climb into controlled airspace hoping to break out on top long after I’d cleared the MSA.
Was it the right choice ? I think so. Taking off in the first place was not.
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Had a similar choice 10 year ago. I was flying as as instructor from Innsbruck. We never get fog there and the met report told the same: No fog to be expected in Innsbruck all other Airports within 200 miles IMC. A very typical situation in winter time - so we took off to get some airwork done. After 15 min in the flight Innsbruck Tower called us and told us that unexpectetly they were completly fogged in. As the weather men where surprised by that fact they could give no clue when the situation might change.
My flight experience was about 1000h at that time and I happend to be IFR rated. Nevertheless my actual IFR experience war very limited. The plane was full IFR equipped but only on the left side - the place of the student.
I opted for an emergency landing. I told the student about my decicion and took the controls. As the valley was not useable for landing a our present position we had to turn around to a landable meadow. But when we arrived there the fog had reached it and all the valley began to fog in.
Here a changed to option a. I decided to go to Salzburg. Salzburg was 1 hour away and also IMC but it had radar converage so I would get radar assistance for the approach. I climed to get into the reach of Innsbruck radar (> 9000feet) and I declared emergency . Legally there was no need for that, I could have just filed an IFR plan to Salzburg. But with my experience, no approach charts and an instrument scan from the right side I considered I needed all the help I could get.
That proved fortunate for us. Soon we enterd a cloud bank and it became somewhat bumpy, but I felt confident, I knew that ATC was watching my course and my altitude constantly, all I really had to do was to keep the plane strait and level and fly the course I was given. Even from that right seat that did not feel really stressful. But what was more - knowing our problem ATC listened to VOLMET for us and such found out that a little airport 20 miles from our course line unexpectetly reported VMC (there was much unexpected things on the weather on that day). They told us that they would vector us over that area on our way to Salzburg. After 10 minutes we suddenly broke free of clouds and there was a 10 miles diameter hole in the clouds with that little airport on its side. The situation had become so easy that I could give back the controls to my student and make him land at that most welcome little field, instead of flying the ILS at Salzburg from the right seat.
Í think the most important help in that situation happend 900 flight hours before. With 100h experience like G SXTY I also thought a lot about similar situations and discussed them with other more experienced pilots. Hungry Joe is right that the situation is easier in an armchair. But that makes it even more important to use the "armchair method" Thinking about it before takes a considerable amount of load away when a situation threatens to overload. So when I found myself in that mess, at least there was no need for inventing something. There was always a plan ready to use.
My flight experience was about 1000h at that time and I happend to be IFR rated. Nevertheless my actual IFR experience war very limited. The plane was full IFR equipped but only on the left side - the place of the student.
I opted for an emergency landing. I told the student about my decicion and took the controls. As the valley was not useable for landing a our present position we had to turn around to a landable meadow. But when we arrived there the fog had reached it and all the valley began to fog in.
Here a changed to option a. I decided to go to Salzburg. Salzburg was 1 hour away and also IMC but it had radar converage so I would get radar assistance for the approach. I climed to get into the reach of Innsbruck radar (> 9000feet) and I declared emergency . Legally there was no need for that, I could have just filed an IFR plan to Salzburg. But with my experience, no approach charts and an instrument scan from the right side I considered I needed all the help I could get.
That proved fortunate for us. Soon we enterd a cloud bank and it became somewhat bumpy, but I felt confident, I knew that ATC was watching my course and my altitude constantly, all I really had to do was to keep the plane strait and level and fly the course I was given. Even from that right seat that did not feel really stressful. But what was more - knowing our problem ATC listened to VOLMET for us and such found out that a little airport 20 miles from our course line unexpectetly reported VMC (there was much unexpected things on the weather on that day). They told us that they would vector us over that area on our way to Salzburg. After 10 minutes we suddenly broke free of clouds and there was a 10 miles diameter hole in the clouds with that little airport on its side. The situation had become so easy that I could give back the controls to my student and make him land at that most welcome little field, instead of flying the ILS at Salzburg from the right seat.
Í think the most important help in that situation happend 900 flight hours before. With 100h experience like G SXTY I also thought a lot about similar situations and discussed them with other more experienced pilots. Hungry Joe is right that the situation is easier in an armchair. But that makes it even more important to use the "armchair method" Thinking about it before takes a considerable amount of load away when a situation threatens to overload. So when I found myself in that mess, at least there was no need for inventing something. There was always a plan ready to use.
Last edited by maxrpm; 9th May 2003 at 23:21.
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G'day G-SXTY,
Good questions and I believe Ozepat has given you some very sound advice.
Don't for a second believe that you can fly in IMC with 10 hours "training". I can't remember the exact details of the report but I think it was done in the 60's by the FAA about non Instrument rated pilots flying into IMC. This was a controlled study and fortunately no one was hurt!! The results are startling and very sobering. I think they used 20 pilots all with a variety of hours and experience. None had an Instrument rating and I believe one or two had a Night rating (ie Night VFR). All ended up spiralling in. The time varied from 20 seconds to just over 3 minutes. (The 3 minute chap had the Night VFR rating).
Now you may feel, "hey 3 minutes is enough to get me on top" but is it? You don't know that.
My advice, keep out of the cloud.
The real lesson is not what you'd do once you got yourself in the situation but how to avoid it in the first place.
When I was flogging around in the bush in often fairly ordinary weather, I would keep a minimum of 2 "outs".
Any way, it's a good question and worth discusssing on the ground in the relative comfort of the lounge room.
Good questions and I believe Ozepat has given you some very sound advice.
Don't for a second believe that you can fly in IMC with 10 hours "training". I can't remember the exact details of the report but I think it was done in the 60's by the FAA about non Instrument rated pilots flying into IMC. This was a controlled study and fortunately no one was hurt!! The results are startling and very sobering. I think they used 20 pilots all with a variety of hours and experience. None had an Instrument rating and I believe one or two had a Night rating (ie Night VFR). All ended up spiralling in. The time varied from 20 seconds to just over 3 minutes. (The 3 minute chap had the Night VFR rating).
Now you may feel, "hey 3 minutes is enough to get me on top" but is it? You don't know that.
My advice, keep out of the cloud.
The real lesson is not what you'd do once you got yourself in the situation but how to avoid it in the first place.
When I was flogging around in the bush in often fairly ordinary weather, I would keep a minimum of 2 "outs".
Any way, it's a good question and worth discusssing on the ground in the relative comfort of the lounge room.
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I ve been flying commercially now for 15 years and along the way i have learned some very valuable lessons,some from experience first hand and some from others.
The biggest lessons learned are always make sure you are qualified and current to conduct the flight you are about to undertake.
Not long after i qualified for my cpl iwas offerred some work flying for an engineering company.the owner of the business explained they had a three week tripaway coming up where i would be required to fly his engineers in their company cessna 210.the owner also told me at this point if i did a good job he would hire me full time.on the day the trip was scheduled to depart ,you guessed it the wx was bloody terrible,and me with no instrument rating.to cut a very long story short we departed and i spent the next 2 hours ducking and weaving around storm cells and heavy rain,and eventually forced back to our departure airport.on returning to land i was greeted by a fairly aggressive engineering boss who told me id let him down,a number of other pilots who ridiculed me for returning.however the cfi of my flying school just walked over looked me straight in the eyes and said "son you made the right choice,youre back ,your pax are back the a/c is in one peice,dont let anyone tell you different"
if in any doubt as to the conditions wx wise or others make sure you are fully prepared or dont go flying.
Ozexpat mentions the saying "better to be on the ground wishing you were up there....................."
there is another saying."there are old pilots and there are bold pilots,but there are no old bold pilots"
gsixty you mention you have about 10 hrs if flying in 80,in answer to your question option a is suicidal,your best and only option would be to find a field,airport or otherwise to put the a/c down asap.
You can discuss whether you were right or wrong with the appropriate authorities from the comfort and safety of an arm chair on the ground
Please don't post all in caps - makes it very hard to read.
The biggest lessons learned are always make sure you are qualified and current to conduct the flight you are about to undertake.
Not long after i qualified for my cpl iwas offerred some work flying for an engineering company.the owner of the business explained they had a three week tripaway coming up where i would be required to fly his engineers in their company cessna 210.the owner also told me at this point if i did a good job he would hire me full time.on the day the trip was scheduled to depart ,you guessed it the wx was bloody terrible,and me with no instrument rating.to cut a very long story short we departed and i spent the next 2 hours ducking and weaving around storm cells and heavy rain,and eventually forced back to our departure airport.on returning to land i was greeted by a fairly aggressive engineering boss who told me id let him down,a number of other pilots who ridiculed me for returning.however the cfi of my flying school just walked over looked me straight in the eyes and said "son you made the right choice,youre back ,your pax are back the a/c is in one peice,dont let anyone tell you different"
if in any doubt as to the conditions wx wise or others make sure you are fully prepared or dont go flying.
Ozexpat mentions the saying "better to be on the ground wishing you were up there....................."
there is another saying."there are old pilots and there are bold pilots,but there are no old bold pilots"
gsixty you mention you have about 10 hrs if flying in 80,in answer to your question option a is suicidal,your best and only option would be to find a field,airport or otherwise to put the a/c down asap.
You can discuss whether you were right or wrong with the appropriate authorities from the comfort and safety of an arm chair on the ground
Please don't post all in caps - makes it very hard to read.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 10th May 2003 at 20:20.
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If you're trying to choose between these two options you've already made the biggest mistake. Kind of like choosing between a rock and a hard place when you've got dozens of pillows around you.
WHY on earth would you want to take either of those options when you have the time to take the correct, safe and easy option?
I, even as a glider pilot, have never had to 'land out' but I've landed at a number of places which weren't as good as the surrounding fields.
However, the situation you describe sounds like a low-level navex. IF.... the viz is sufficient and you know where you are.
If, however, the viz begins to deteriorate or the bases start looking lower, you want to be finding yourself a field.
But on the other hand if its windy you're may have your hands full and it's bound to be just as bad in the clouds.
So you're probably better off finding a field and landing!!!
WHY on earth would you want to take either of those options when you have the time to take the correct, safe and easy option?
I, even as a glider pilot, have never had to 'land out' but I've landed at a number of places which weren't as good as the surrounding fields.
However, the situation you describe sounds like a low-level navex. IF.... the viz is sufficient and you know where you are.
If, however, the viz begins to deteriorate or the bases start looking lower, you want to be finding yourself a field.
But on the other hand if its windy you're may have your hands full and it's bound to be just as bad in the clouds.
So you're probably better off finding a field and landing!!!
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Don't get yourself in this situation in the first place ! The worst decisions in aviation can be made before engine start.
If you are'nt instrument trained and equipped, then be absolutely sure of your capability to operate in the actual and forecast conditions. Allow enough leeway to cope with below-forecast conditions. Constantly monitor the situation. Listen frequently to Volmets and ATIS etc etc. Thereby form a mental picture of the weather pattern in real time.
Always have a bolt hole. Constantly review available airfields along your route. Keep yourself informed of weather conditions at those places. NB crosswind limits , especially yours, even when CAVOK. NB runway length and obstacles. Etc etc etc.
It means staying on the ground if in any doubt. It means that you'll appear over-cautious to observers who don't have the same responsibility, or passengers who were expecting a ride. So what. If you kill them, they'll never speak to you again !
If you do get into trouble, make sure you have contact frequencies for the area so that you can ask for help. QDM's, radar steers, positioning guidance, weather information etc - don't be afraid to admit that you're in trouble and that you need help and advice.
What would you do if the engine quit ? Single engined IMC, low cloud base ? You're welcome ! Not for me !
Before you spend any more cash on "jollies", spend it on an IMC/IR or whatever, to ensure increased safety margins in good weather, as opposed to being able to fly in worse weather, which is'nt any fun anyway. Stay in practice, using safe dual flying precautions. It's one of the most rewarding skills in aviation, I think.
Prevention is better than cure.
All IMHO.
If you are'nt instrument trained and equipped, then be absolutely sure of your capability to operate in the actual and forecast conditions. Allow enough leeway to cope with below-forecast conditions. Constantly monitor the situation. Listen frequently to Volmets and ATIS etc etc. Thereby form a mental picture of the weather pattern in real time.
Always have a bolt hole. Constantly review available airfields along your route. Keep yourself informed of weather conditions at those places. NB crosswind limits , especially yours, even when CAVOK. NB runway length and obstacles. Etc etc etc.
It means staying on the ground if in any doubt. It means that you'll appear over-cautious to observers who don't have the same responsibility, or passengers who were expecting a ride. So what. If you kill them, they'll never speak to you again !
If you do get into trouble, make sure you have contact frequencies for the area so that you can ask for help. QDM's, radar steers, positioning guidance, weather information etc - don't be afraid to admit that you're in trouble and that you need help and advice.
What would you do if the engine quit ? Single engined IMC, low cloud base ? You're welcome ! Not for me !
Before you spend any more cash on "jollies", spend it on an IMC/IR or whatever, to ensure increased safety margins in good weather, as opposed to being able to fly in worse weather, which is'nt any fun anyway. Stay in practice, using safe dual flying precautions. It's one of the most rewarding skills in aviation, I think.
Prevention is better than cure.
All IMHO.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Thank you all for your input – lots of excellent, thought-provoking replies. As some of you mentioned, I’m starting to sense that at 80 hrs, I’ve got enough knowledge and experience to be dangerous.
One of my challenges at this stage is to try and set myself longer and more demanding flights, without overstepping the mark and scaring myself too much (let alone killing anyone). Sometimes finding that balance can be tricky (what exactly are my crosswind limits – when should I go up for some practice & when should I stay at home?), and is one of the reasons for asking for advice here.
In the scenario I outlined, without doubt the 1st mistake was to launch in the first place, closely followed by the decision to continue with the flight and leave the relative safety of the circuit. Trust me, on a day like that, I would either be down the pub (preferably with Reddo)
or thumbing through some ATPL notes (if she wasn’t available)
. The point of playing devil’s advocate was to consider what my actions would be if I did ever cock-things up badly enough to land myself in that situation.
Thanks to your advice, I would be much more decisive in taking the (tough) decision to land in a field and risk damaging the aircraft, rather than using my limited IF experience to risk damaging myself.
Please keep the replies coming – I’m particularly interested in how people have dealt with similar situations themselves. ‘Tis an awful lot cheaper to learn from other people’s mistakes!
One of my challenges at this stage is to try and set myself longer and more demanding flights, without overstepping the mark and scaring myself too much (let alone killing anyone). Sometimes finding that balance can be tricky (what exactly are my crosswind limits – when should I go up for some practice & when should I stay at home?), and is one of the reasons for asking for advice here.
In the scenario I outlined, without doubt the 1st mistake was to launch in the first place, closely followed by the decision to continue with the flight and leave the relative safety of the circuit. Trust me, on a day like that, I would either be down the pub (preferably with Reddo)
or thumbing through some ATPL notes (if she wasn’t available). The point of playing devil’s advocate was to consider what my actions would be if I did ever cock-things up badly enough to land myself in that situation.Thanks to your advice, I would be much more decisive in taking the (tough) decision to land in a field and risk damaging the aircraft, rather than using my limited IF experience to risk damaging myself.
Please keep the replies coming – I’m particularly interested in how people have dealt with similar situations themselves. ‘Tis an awful lot cheaper to learn from other people’s mistakes!
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G-SXTY, you've demonstrated by asking the question here that you are a far safer pilot than many of the idiots out there.
There tends to be a peak in the accident statistics scored against pilot experience at about 100 hours. At that point they tend to think they've got it sussed. I very nearly added to those statistics in a fairly high performance single when I had just a tad over 100 hours by getting into cloud unexpectedly and getting thoroughly disorientated. And I DID have an IMC rating.
As other posters above have said, best answer is not to put oneself in that situation in the first place. Having got there, according to your options listed above, far and away the best answer is option (c) - put it down, and survive. You've already gambled with your life and an expensive machine quite enough. Time to leave the casino. Anything else is an excellent way to commit suicide. You may get away with it - Hungry Joe did. Chances, however, are not good. Reddo also points out a very good way of thinking about it - never ever reduce your available options to only one - because Sod's Law then applies and it will be taken away from you.
Excellent advice I got when I was a PPL student was to imagine the conduct of my flight in terms of the AAIB reports - e.g. "The (limited experience) pilot elected to continue the flight despite a descending cloudbase and worsening weather towards high ground with cables..." and imagine whether I wanted people to read about me in those terms. We've all been there - read those reports and thought "What a plonker". Don't let people think you died being a plonker.
There tends to be a peak in the accident statistics scored against pilot experience at about 100 hours. At that point they tend to think they've got it sussed. I very nearly added to those statistics in a fairly high performance single when I had just a tad over 100 hours by getting into cloud unexpectedly and getting thoroughly disorientated. And I DID have an IMC rating.
As other posters above have said, best answer is not to put oneself in that situation in the first place. Having got there, according to your options listed above, far and away the best answer is option (c) - put it down, and survive. You've already gambled with your life and an expensive machine quite enough. Time to leave the casino. Anything else is an excellent way to commit suicide. You may get away with it - Hungry Joe did. Chances, however, are not good. Reddo also points out a very good way of thinking about it - never ever reduce your available options to only one - because Sod's Law then applies and it will be taken away from you.
Excellent advice I got when I was a PPL student was to imagine the conduct of my flight in terms of the AAIB reports - e.g. "The (limited experience) pilot elected to continue the flight despite a descending cloudbase and worsening weather towards high ground with cables..." and imagine whether I wanted people to read about me in those terms. We've all been there - read those reports and thought "What a plonker". Don't let people think you died being a plonker.
Two biggest causes of accidents: Fuel exhaustion/starvation & continued flight into non-VMC conditions by a non-IR pilot.
With few exceptions a VMC only pilot choosing to fly into non-VMC is tantamount to playing russian roulette wtih 5 loaded chambers.
With few exceptions a VMC only pilot choosing to fly into non-VMC is tantamount to playing russian roulette wtih 5 loaded chambers.
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gsixty,
youve got that right "learn from the mistakes of others"
you may not live long enough to make them all yourself!!!!!
gsixty
just another quick one
the 3 most useless things to a pilot
on take off the runway behind you!!
fuel in the tanker!!!
the sky above you!!!!
one to remember for ifr flying(or marginal vmc)
to avoid cloud below LSALT, mountains are known to hide out in them.
and last but not least be more prepared than you think you need to be and always give yourself an out.no one has ever come unstuck from being too prepared.
with your attitude youre sure to do well
happy flying.
youve got that right "learn from the mistakes of others"
you may not live long enough to make them all yourself!!!!!
gsixty
just another quick one
the 3 most useless things to a pilot
on take off the runway behind you!!
fuel in the tanker!!!
the sky above you!!!!
one to remember for ifr flying(or marginal vmc)
to avoid cloud below LSALT, mountains are known to hide out in them.
and last but not least be more prepared than you think you need to be and always give yourself an out.no one has ever come unstuck from being too prepared.
with your attitude youre sure to do well
happy flying.
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10 hrs of IFR time?
Stay out of the clouds. You're odds aren't good with little experience. Bluntly...you'll probably die.
Fly low VMC. 200 feet or lower if you have to. If you know where you are, and you're familiar with the terrain I'd take it down to 10 feet.
If the terrain starts rising into the clouds or your forward visibility drops to less than 3/4 of mile or so, land on a road or a feild.
Stay out of the clouds. You're odds aren't good with little experience. Bluntly...you'll probably die.
Fly low VMC. 200 feet or lower if you have to. If you know where you are, and you're familiar with the terrain I'd take it down to 10 feet.
If the terrain starts rising into the clouds or your forward visibility drops to less than 3/4 of mile or so, land on a road or a feild.
Additionally, you might like to ponder this actual incident from the '60s.
Very experienced, fully instrument capable, military helo pilot found himself in a lowering cloud base in a narrowing valley. Could have turned round and back-tracked but (not unreasonably) decide to climb out of it. What he actually climbed into was the base of a very active, building Cu Nb and was, ultimately, spat out of the side at approximately 12.000 feet ... together with the disintegrated component parts of the helo and his three crew members.
Think on.
Very experienced, fully instrument capable, military helo pilot found himself in a lowering cloud base in a narrowing valley. Could have turned round and back-tracked but (not unreasonably) decide to climb out of it. What he actually climbed into was the base of a very active, building Cu Nb and was, ultimately, spat out of the side at approximately 12.000 feet ... together with the disintegrated component parts of the helo and his three crew members.
Think on.
I really don't know what the prang statistics are like in your country, but in this part of the world (ie not necessarily this particular country), there seems to be a pretty equal spread between CFIT due to "scud running" and deathly spiral dive due to spatial disorientation when trying to fly on instruments.
Much depends on your competence in IMC, which is the key to escaping from option a in one piece. Option b is not so dependent on your skills -- aeroplanes lose against hills and pylons every single time, regardless of pilot skill.
Finally, Captain Stable's comment on writing your own accident report reminds me of similar good advice, which was passed to me with the following extra tip. Any time you find yourself writing the words "The pilot, nevertheless,..." in your accident report, it's time to reconsider the plan.
Yep, Staying out is by far the best option. But as before said unforecast weather happens and you have to deal with what's there.
If I can remember my Robert Buck, plan your flights towards improving weather, especially if your departure is marginal.
The important part is keeping track of how the weather is developing and what local factors are at play. As long as you are in weather you are comfortable in, there's no need to go into something you'd rather not fly in -- that's during daylight. You can turn around to that good patch you had been flying in.
Surprises can still happen, you can fly into a cloud at night and need to know what you will do about it. Wings level, half-bar down on the horizon, 200 rpm off, Center C-GDVZ descending to 4500 (MEA + 1000') -- actually I should have asked first, but in the actual case there was nobody else on the airway at my level and my reflex to get VFR ASAP got ahead of asking ATC (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate). I was not going below MEA and would have declared myself IMC, got a clearance and turned around.
IMC in winter with no OAT and a rusty IR is not a place to spend much time in.
As before said, you can kill yourself scud running or you can kill youself losing control in IMC -- no guarantees. Me, I'd talk to ATC, declare a Mayday if I have to and hope I don't get ice -- a nice field under me or a dodgy vacuum pump could change my mind.
If I can remember my Robert Buck, plan your flights towards improving weather, especially if your departure is marginal.
The important part is keeping track of how the weather is developing and what local factors are at play. As long as you are in weather you are comfortable in, there's no need to go into something you'd rather not fly in -- that's during daylight. You can turn around to that good patch you had been flying in.
Surprises can still happen, you can fly into a cloud at night and need to know what you will do about it. Wings level, half-bar down on the horizon, 200 rpm off, Center C-GDVZ descending to 4500 (MEA + 1000') -- actually I should have asked first, but in the actual case there was nobody else on the airway at my level and my reflex to get VFR ASAP got ahead of asking ATC (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate). I was not going below MEA and would have declared myself IMC, got a clearance and turned around.
IMC in winter with no OAT and a rusty IR is not a place to spend much time in.
As before said, you can kill yourself scud running or you can kill youself losing control in IMC -- no guarantees. Me, I'd talk to ATC, declare a Mayday if I have to and hope I don't get ice -- a nice field under me or a dodgy vacuum pump could change my mind.
