SOP and CRM
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SOP and CRM
Hello everybody,
I have just started my flight training and I was wondering how professional pilots handle 2 very common situations?
What did you do when someone did not comply with the SOP’s and how did you handle that situation?
Incident's in which you used very good CRM?
Any examples gratefully received.
Thank you very much.
Caroline.
I have just started my flight training and I was wondering how professional pilots handle 2 very common situations?
What did you do when someone did not comply with the SOP’s and how did you handle that situation?
Incident's in which you used very good CRM?
Any examples gratefully received.
Thank you very much.
Caroline.
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Unfortunately, the answer to the first question is difficult to answer as it depends so much on who you work for and whether you occupy the left or right seat.
An example of the latter may be a FO who offers the handling of the aircraft to the captain, perhaps due to a rough approach, runway conditions or a systems failure.
If the aircraft's going to get pranged, always allow the person taking the responsibilty to prang it themselves!
An example of the latter may be a FO who offers the handling of the aircraft to the captain, perhaps due to a rough approach, runway conditions or a systems failure.
If the aircraft's going to get pranged, always allow the person taking the responsibilty to prang it themselves!
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Caroline,
Excellent questions, and if you continue throughout your career asking and seeking like that you will do very well.
You probably won't have completed a CRM course yet; Crew Resource Management is something that will arise mainly when you head towards the multi crew environment, but it should equally be seen as applying to all aspects of flight at all levels, even during your training.
Perhaps the major goal of CRM is the retention of Situational Awareness at all times, and airlines use SOP's to facilitate that. Situational Awareness is a cover-all term that includes the aircraft, the environment, where we are going, who is around us and where, and how we are doing in the task overall. At a very simple level, having a set of SOP's in place means that there is no need to second-guess the person next to you, and allows a greater part of your attention to be devoted to the aircraft and the environment.
If someone isn't using SOP's, then that is potentially a threat to your Situational Awareness. Depending of course on the urgency of the situation as you see it, you could simply start with a friendly question along the lines of "Sorry, is this in the Flying Manual? " or something similar. Failing that, there is the standard CRM advocacy question format that you can follow in which you;
Verbalize concern "I feel uneasy here with you operating outside the SOP's...
Stabilize Conditions "I would appreciate it if we could operate as the book says...
Brief the current/future Impact "..at the moment I feel outside the loop and uncertain of what is coming next, and that is affecting my performance as part of this crew. If we carry on like this I will not be able to devote as much of my attention to the operation as I would like to and I feel that is an unsafe situation"
Afterwards, it should be possible for you debrief the situation in a professional manner, and hopefully both learn.
As a line Captain, I try to mitigate any tendency to operate outside SOP's in my brief. First, I'll set a tone that is as approachable as I can be, and positively invite feedback on all things at all times "If there's anything you feel unhappy about, anytime, let me know... I'm only human, and do miss things." I also put a little almost throwaway phrase in (deliberately!) which is along the lines of "Well, should be a nice relaxed trip today... I always think that as long as we both go by the SOP's at all times, we know whats coming next and where we stand, don't we?" or something like that.
Hope that helps.. thats the view of a simple line skipper here, not a CRM trainer, but I fundamentally feel that this is an area that we require to devote a lot of thought to in our professional life, and keep revisiting to see how we can improve.
Good luck with your training.
Sick Squid
Excellent questions, and if you continue throughout your career asking and seeking like that you will do very well.
You probably won't have completed a CRM course yet; Crew Resource Management is something that will arise mainly when you head towards the multi crew environment, but it should equally be seen as applying to all aspects of flight at all levels, even during your training.
Perhaps the major goal of CRM is the retention of Situational Awareness at all times, and airlines use SOP's to facilitate that. Situational Awareness is a cover-all term that includes the aircraft, the environment, where we are going, who is around us and where, and how we are doing in the task overall. At a very simple level, having a set of SOP's in place means that there is no need to second-guess the person next to you, and allows a greater part of your attention to be devoted to the aircraft and the environment.
If someone isn't using SOP's, then that is potentially a threat to your Situational Awareness. Depending of course on the urgency of the situation as you see it, you could simply start with a friendly question along the lines of "Sorry, is this in the Flying Manual? " or something similar. Failing that, there is the standard CRM advocacy question format that you can follow in which you;
Verbalize concern "I feel uneasy here with you operating outside the SOP's...
Stabilize Conditions "I would appreciate it if we could operate as the book says...
Brief the current/future Impact "..at the moment I feel outside the loop and uncertain of what is coming next, and that is affecting my performance as part of this crew. If we carry on like this I will not be able to devote as much of my attention to the operation as I would like to and I feel that is an unsafe situation"
Afterwards, it should be possible for you debrief the situation in a professional manner, and hopefully both learn.
As a line Captain, I try to mitigate any tendency to operate outside SOP's in my brief. First, I'll set a tone that is as approachable as I can be, and positively invite feedback on all things at all times "If there's anything you feel unhappy about, anytime, let me know... I'm only human, and do miss things." I also put a little almost throwaway phrase in (deliberately!) which is along the lines of "Well, should be a nice relaxed trip today... I always think that as long as we both go by the SOP's at all times, we know whats coming next and where we stand, don't we?" or something like that.
Hope that helps.. thats the view of a simple line skipper here, not a CRM trainer, but I fundamentally feel that this is an area that we require to devote a lot of thought to in our professional life, and keep revisiting to see how we can improve.
Good luck with your training.
Sick Squid
Last edited by Sick Squid; 20th Mar 2003 at 14:57.
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Caroline, I can't see any way I can improve on £6's answer.
SOP's are your lifeline in an airline environment, where you will find yourself flying with someone you've never even met before. You need to know what to expect of them, and vice versa. If SOP's go out of the window, at least one of the pilots is confused, disorientated and hence not contributing at all to the safe operation of the flight.
Having said that, SOP's can never cover every situation. There will be circumstances in which you and SOP will need to part company. The trick is to recognise those circumstances, keep the departure from SOP as brief and small as possible, and wherever possible brief beforehand. Apart from anything else, in such a briefing the other pilot may well come up with suggestions you hadn't considered - keep them in the loop at all times. This is where good CRM comes in.
As £6 says, keep asking questions like that and you'll do just fine. I know that there are only two types of pilots - dangerous ones who keep trying to be safer, and dangerous pilots who don't. While I keep learning and keep applying the lessons I learn every day, I'll stay in the first category (hopefully!
). The day I stop learning will be the day I give up flying.
SOP's are your lifeline in an airline environment, where you will find yourself flying with someone you've never even met before. You need to know what to expect of them, and vice versa. If SOP's go out of the window, at least one of the pilots is confused, disorientated and hence not contributing at all to the safe operation of the flight.
Having said that, SOP's can never cover every situation. There will be circumstances in which you and SOP will need to part company. The trick is to recognise those circumstances, keep the departure from SOP as brief and small as possible, and wherever possible brief beforehand. Apart from anything else, in such a briefing the other pilot may well come up with suggestions you hadn't considered - keep them in the loop at all times. This is where good CRM comes in.
As £6 says, keep asking questions like that and you'll do just fine. I know that there are only two types of pilots - dangerous ones who keep trying to be safer, and dangerous pilots who don't. While I keep learning and keep applying the lessons I learn every day, I'll stay in the first category (hopefully!
). The day I stop learning will be the day I give up flying.
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We have found that the biggest challenge to SOPs is when experienced pilots from other airlines (due to furloughs or shutdowns) are hired.
It has proven to be much more difficult and time consuming to untrain these pilots from their previously trained ways of doing things than it is to train pilots without previous airline exposure.
For some folks change is more problematic than for others. Needless to say, some well qualified, type rated, experienced pilots were unable to successfully complete line training.
Sad but true.
It has proven to be much more difficult and time consuming to untrain these pilots from their previously trained ways of doing things than it is to train pilots without previous airline exposure.
For some folks change is more problematic than for others. Needless to say, some well qualified, type rated, experienced pilots were unable to successfully complete line training.
Sad but true.
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But the dinosaur pilots are worst. The old-style, cowboy, tries to show how fantastic they are and 'don't need a book to tell me how to fly' but can't see how little they fit in the modern airline environment.
Most SOP's are very similar, with only occasional differences in terminlogy, as they are taken from the AOM.
Or is it the FO 'who used to be a captain' syndrome you mean?
Most SOP's are very similar, with only occasional differences in terminlogy, as they are taken from the AOM.
Or is it the FO 'who used to be a captain' syndrome you mean?
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Caroline,
Keep the curiosity going, it will serve you well. The real paradox of SOP usage is this: When you need them the most, you'll be the least likely to use them. On a sunny day, with a routine trip and and competent crew, the SOP's are reflexively simple to use. On a difficult day, with ATC re-routes weather, and mechanical issues, a crew can find themselves "time compressed" to the point where the callouts and checklists are not being accomplished. The SOP's are designed to protect us in these situations, however we're most likely to not use them in the above described scenario.
A recent post-accident human factors study of several regional airline CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) accidents found some interesting similarities. In every CFIT accident you care to review, the mishap began with time compression. It's easy to say, "OK lads, don't get rushed.." but it was also discovered that the time compression was always followed by a broken habbit pattern, then a distraction. Imagine these as a triangle. When we're out aviating, we often deal with time compression, all part of the job. recognize however, that when you start to feel that "pinch" of being rushed, it's probably time to get downright religious about your checklist and callouts. Doing so helps prevent a routine distraction from causing a mishap.
SOP's are the cornerstone of safe flight operation. They affect everything you do. For example, a British Captain flying a 747 with an asian FO, may ask: "Ah, give me one-eighty on the airspeed please." If the FO doesn't speak any english but aviation english, the Captain will recieve no response. If the Captain points to the mode control panel and says" speed set, one eight zero", he'll get exactly what he wants.
Good luck with you career, enjoy the journey.
Keep the curiosity going, it will serve you well. The real paradox of SOP usage is this: When you need them the most, you'll be the least likely to use them. On a sunny day, with a routine trip and and competent crew, the SOP's are reflexively simple to use. On a difficult day, with ATC re-routes weather, and mechanical issues, a crew can find themselves "time compressed" to the point where the callouts and checklists are not being accomplished. The SOP's are designed to protect us in these situations, however we're most likely to not use them in the above described scenario.
A recent post-accident human factors study of several regional airline CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) accidents found some interesting similarities. In every CFIT accident you care to review, the mishap began with time compression. It's easy to say, "OK lads, don't get rushed.." but it was also discovered that the time compression was always followed by a broken habbit pattern, then a distraction. Imagine these as a triangle. When we're out aviating, we often deal with time compression, all part of the job. recognize however, that when you start to feel that "pinch" of being rushed, it's probably time to get downright religious about your checklist and callouts. Doing so helps prevent a routine distraction from causing a mishap.
SOP's are the cornerstone of safe flight operation. They affect everything you do. For example, a British Captain flying a 747 with an asian FO, may ask: "Ah, give me one-eighty on the airspeed please." If the FO doesn't speak any english but aviation english, the Captain will recieve no response. If the Captain points to the mode control panel and says" speed set, one eight zero", he'll get exactly what he wants.
Good luck with you career, enjoy the journey.
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CRM & SOP, sometimes it works, and then again..
Case in point.
In cruise at FL310, the number three engine turbine overheat light illuminates.
Captain looks at it and says nothing.
F/O looks at it and says..."wonder why that happened?"
F/E (expat) reaches up and retards the number three throttle, and mentions ..."anybody interested in the checklist, before the engine actually burns off and falls into the Indian Ocean?"
The Captain and First Officer had just come back from recurrent sim training, where they both ah, passed.
Those who have been there will recognise the respective airline.
In cruise at FL310, the number three engine turbine overheat light illuminates.
Captain looks at it and says nothing.
F/O looks at it and says..."wonder why that happened?"
F/E (expat) reaches up and retards the number three throttle, and mentions ..."anybody interested in the checklist, before the engine actually burns off and falls into the Indian Ocean?"
The Captain and First Officer had just come back from recurrent sim training, where they both ah, passed.
Those who have been there will recognise the respective airline.
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Caroline Seven Seven Seven
QUESTION:
What did you do when someone did not comply with the SOP’s and how did you handle that situation?
STATEMENT: I fire them!!! Just kidding!!! Actually I have them explain to me, preferably in person their side of the story. This serves several purposes, to see their body language, get more details about the circumstances, if they really did something wrong to see if the are repentant. The main reason is to detect flaws in the current system. No SOP can cover all facts and circumstances.
QUESTION:
Incident's in which you used very good CRM?
STATEMENT: A master warning light came on right after rotation in a HS-125. Used proper procedures and canceled it and called it out to the other crewmember. Continued to fly the aircraft to a safe altitude before sorting out the problem.
What did you do when someone did not comply with the SOP’s and how did you handle that situation?
STATEMENT: I fire them!!! Just kidding!!! Actually I have them explain to me, preferably in person their side of the story. This serves several purposes, to see their body language, get more details about the circumstances, if they really did something wrong to see if the are repentant. The main reason is to detect flaws in the current system. No SOP can cover all facts and circumstances.
QUESTION:
Incident's in which you used very good CRM?
STATEMENT: A master warning light came on right after rotation in a HS-125. Used proper procedures and canceled it and called it out to the other crewmember. Continued to fly the aircraft to a safe altitude before sorting out the problem.
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The classic CFIT CRM breakdown was some years ago when the Flying Tiger 74 crashed short of the runway at Kuala Lumpur.
None of the three crewmembers had questioned the misunderstood ATC clearance to: "Descent now TWO four zero zero feet."
It was interpreted: "Descent now TO four zero zero feet." If the crew had checked their NDB approach chart, it would have alerted them to the fact that descending to "four hundred" (400) feet was suicidal.
Even when the GPWS sounded ...at least five times, this tired crew had continued the approach...into elevated terrain.
None of the three crewmembers had questioned the misunderstood ATC clearance to: "Descent now TWO four zero zero feet."
It was interpreted: "Descent now TO four zero zero feet." If the crew had checked their NDB approach chart, it would have alerted them to the fact that descending to "four hundred" (400) feet was suicidal.
Even when the GPWS sounded ...at least five times, this tired crew had continued the approach...into elevated terrain.
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C777
Hi,
Another aspect.
Generally small airlines tend to leave a lot of gray areas in their SOPs. This is a major issue.
A lot of guys/girls tend to fly into the ground blindly following SOPs. SOPs are a big problem in CRM, more so if they are vague and not up to standard. Even more so, if s/one ads lots of b/s to the "normal procedures" on any type.
On the other hand on my current job I have to talk my head off on a CAT II/III approach, which personally I thing is very wrong, but still have to do...
If you r looking for an example, check my input on a thread named "Captains interfering with F/Os", believe it was in Reprting Points, also some other threads like "Attitude". Do your homework, dont just seat back and wait...
Cheers n Loving/Angel Captains all the time!
Another aspect.
Generally small airlines tend to leave a lot of gray areas in their SOPs. This is a major issue.
A lot of guys/girls tend to fly into the ground blindly following SOPs. SOPs are a big problem in CRM, more so if they are vague and not up to standard. Even more so, if s/one ads lots of b/s to the "normal procedures" on any type.
On the other hand on my current job I have to talk my head off on a CAT II/III approach, which personally I thing is very wrong, but still have to do...
If you r looking for an example, check my input on a thread named "Captains interfering with F/Os", believe it was in Reprting Points, also some other threads like "Attitude". Do your homework, dont just seat back and wait...
Cheers n Loving/Angel Captains all the time!
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swish266
The threads you mention are both here on this forum and can be accessed using the search function that PPRuNe provides.
If your company SOPs are continually at loggerheads with CRM than you only have a few options:
1. You bring the shortcomings to the notice of your management.
2. If 1. is not possible then you bring your problems to the notice of your regulating authority.
3. If neither of the above options are possible you should consider contacting the UK CHIRPS organisation and bringing you problems to their attention, they may be able to contact your authority or give you some good advice.
You will find Chirps here: CHIRPS
If your company SOPs are continually at loggerheads with CRM than you only have a few options:
1. You bring the shortcomings to the notice of your management.
2. If 1. is not possible then you bring your problems to the notice of your regulating authority.
3. If neither of the above options are possible you should consider contacting the UK CHIRPS organisation and bringing you problems to their attention, they may be able to contact your authority or give you some good advice.
You will find Chirps here: CHIRPS
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BE
Tnx.
Unfortunately the "Safety Standards" comittee at this airline is so conservative it turned down our fleet FTM, who has been working on new AWOPS SOP's for an year. Reason stated - "Too much changes"?!?!?!
They recon if the a/line did not have an accident the last 15 years they should keep changes to minimum!
And we r not regulated by the CAA.
Tnx anyway.
Cheers
Unfortunately the "Safety Standards" comittee at this airline is so conservative it turned down our fleet FTM, who has been working on new AWOPS SOP's for an year. Reason stated - "Too much changes"?!?!?!
They recon if the a/line did not have an accident the last 15 years they should keep changes to minimum!
And we r not regulated by the CAA.
Tnx anyway.
Cheers
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As Glueball said: (a bit modified)
It is a big problem to untrain pilots from former sop:s.
I am in the middle of that untrain period right now, from old sop:s wich is second nature to new ones.
Repetition is the key, even though have repeted all sop:s hundreds of times, you will find yourself in the simulator with your mind in the wrong loop.
Its not only confusing for me, but for my simpartner too, new aircraft for both of us, new airline for me.
I suggest a system wich allows more time in just sop studies and their practice use in flying. As it is right know I feel that sop are something that the student are expected to know when he gets into the sim, and I agree but we have to realise the problem with braking the old loops and learn to use the new ones.
Br FD
It is a big problem to untrain pilots from former sop:s.
I am in the middle of that untrain period right now, from old sop:s wich is second nature to new ones.
Repetition is the key, even though have repeted all sop:s hundreds of times, you will find yourself in the simulator with your mind in the wrong loop.
Its not only confusing for me, but for my simpartner too, new aircraft for both of us, new airline for me.
I suggest a system wich allows more time in just sop studies and their practice use in flying. As it is right know I feel that sop are something that the student are expected to know when he gets into the sim, and I agree but we have to realise the problem with braking the old loops and learn to use the new ones.
Br FD
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As an idividual who experiences deviation from SOP's on a regular basis, especially re the flight deck door policy I am intigued by the comments so far.
First of all I in no way infer that any of the above contributors deviate from SOP's.
After completing my most recent CRM course which comprised of a mixture of cabin crew (variety of ranks) and flight crew (variety of ranks) it was a refreshing change from normal CRM.
CRM is a very useful tool if everyone involved appreciates and believes in it. Unfortunately, not all parties do. This makes it very difficult in the air. Ostensibly, it falls upon the cabin crew to figure out which members of the flight crew are CRM minded and which are not and to behave accordingly. This places additional stress on the rest of the flight crew and also the cabin crew, I often wonder what the "old school" pilots actually want from thier job, as they seem to detest any company they work for.
CRM is at the core of a good working relationship. It is important for all parties to understand what each party has done to get where they are and what they do to continue to stay where they are. It is also important to realise that as individuals we do not always have the answers, there is no "fail" in asking for help, indeed a great trait in individuals is knowing when to ask for help.
When any of the crew I work with deviate from SOP's - regardless of rank (flight crew or cabin crew) - I find that a reminder to them that I know the SOP's and would prefer to follow them, generally re-focuses their thoughts, without confrontation.
Understanding that we all work towards the same goal is the key.
That's me off my soapbox..............
First of all I in no way infer that any of the above contributors deviate from SOP's.
After completing my most recent CRM course which comprised of a mixture of cabin crew (variety of ranks) and flight crew (variety of ranks) it was a refreshing change from normal CRM.
CRM is a very useful tool if everyone involved appreciates and believes in it. Unfortunately, not all parties do. This makes it very difficult in the air. Ostensibly, it falls upon the cabin crew to figure out which members of the flight crew are CRM minded and which are not and to behave accordingly. This places additional stress on the rest of the flight crew and also the cabin crew, I often wonder what the "old school" pilots actually want from thier job, as they seem to detest any company they work for.
CRM is at the core of a good working relationship. It is important for all parties to understand what each party has done to get where they are and what they do to continue to stay where they are. It is also important to realise that as individuals we do not always have the answers, there is no "fail" in asking for help, indeed a great trait in individuals is knowing when to ask for help.
When any of the crew I work with deviate from SOP's - regardless of rank (flight crew or cabin crew) - I find that a reminder to them that I know the SOP's and would prefer to follow them, generally re-focuses their thoughts, without confrontation.
Understanding that we all work towards the same goal is the key.
That's me off my soapbox..............
