CRM Advice
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CRM Advice
I am having my first ever sim ride in a big plane next year - some of the tips have been positive form other forums, in fact encouraging me to be myself as I am excited and very intimidated by it as well - I am just a an Instructor wanting to get on.
Anyhow, I am an easy going bloke and comments which I have recieved from other more estabilshed Prunner's is that I must use "good CRM".
Without sounding all like a dummy the biggest thing I've flown was an Apache and I regularly teach on cherokees!
So my point is in a multi crew enviroment how do I use good CRM?
Is that the differnce from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!"
on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example.
Am I missing the point ?
CRM to me is about human dynamics in the cockpit am I right in saying this?
HELP????????????????
I don't know much on this topic and what are Captains looking for in a co pilot?
I know there are millions of books on this "CRM" and so advice and tips can only be in the broadest sense , so any would be of great value to myself at this stage...you know so I can at least prepare mentally.
Thanks
Anyhow, I am an easy going bloke and comments which I have recieved from other more estabilshed Prunner's is that I must use "good CRM".
Without sounding all like a dummy the biggest thing I've flown was an Apache and I regularly teach on cherokees!
So my point is in a multi crew enviroment how do I use good CRM?
Is that the differnce from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!"
on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example.
Am I missing the point ?
CRM to me is about human dynamics in the cockpit am I right in saying this?
HELP????????????????
I don't know much on this topic and what are Captains looking for in a co pilot?
I know there are millions of books on this "CRM" and so advice and tips can only be in the broadest sense , so any would be of great value to myself at this stage...you know so I can at least prepare mentally.
Thanks
Last edited by Captain Stable; 8th Jan 2003 at 18:35.
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CRM has mostly to do with accommodating personality differences in a confined work environment; it's about maintaining a professional relationship with your crewmembers at all times. Maintaining the "profile" means adherance to SOPs without individualizing procedures, yet allowing crewmembers to develop and exercise their own techniques of handling the airplane within accepted training standards.
CRM is the sharing of thoughts and advice with your fellow crewmembers during abnormal or emergency conditions. Because no amount of simulator training and no checklist can ever address every problem encountered in the real world.
Every crewmember has a unique perspective on solving a particular problem. Each crewmember has something to contribute. The days when a captain was a god are gone. Nevertheless, the cockpit is not a democracy, the captain is still the captain with the final authority and responsibility. But the other crewmembers have a right to speak up and to be assertive when the safety of flight is in question.
CRM is the sharing of thoughts and advice with your fellow crewmembers during abnormal or emergency conditions. Because no amount of simulator training and no checklist can ever address every problem encountered in the real world.
Every crewmember has a unique perspective on solving a particular problem. Each crewmember has something to contribute. The days when a captain was a god are gone. Nevertheless, the cockpit is not a democracy, the captain is still the captain with the final authority and responsibility. But the other crewmembers have a right to speak up and to be assertive when the safety of flight is in question.
They are right, and a very comprehensive definition, Glueball. Just some more real-world examples here:
If you can communicate anything to another crewmember without a tone of voice which suggests that you are amazed by, or avoid any ridicule that xxx mistake could be made by him/her, or implying that the other pilot is a bit of a wimp when they ask for a longer downwind (maybe they are pretty tired with dry eyes from fatigue and/or a lack of sleep, and don't want to quickly rush through "alright, gear-down, flaps 25, flaps 40-Landing Checklist" as you are waiting for Tower to give you the landing clearance on runway 35: did Approach say for the left or right?), or they say that a go-around might be needed due to a slam-dunk approach from ATC, or they say that they will call the Dispatcher to add a little extra fuel to the Release fuel figure with no alternate or extra/tanker fuel included...etc. If you suspect that, as you begin the Approach Check, you never really READ [maybe he never called for it during two altitude restrictions with VOR course changes thru 18,000'...] the Descent Check...what would you say or do? Hope this is not too much out of context and long.
The less delicate the other pilot'(s') cockpit ego, the easier it can be. But remember, two or three guys (i.e. male pilots, to contradict the modern American slang for guys and gals) together find it harder to communicate their basic doubts or concerns (are we rushing too much under these conditions?) to each other.
If you can communicate anything to another crewmember without a tone of voice which suggests that you are amazed by, or avoid any ridicule that xxx mistake could be made by him/her, or implying that the other pilot is a bit of a wimp when they ask for a longer downwind (maybe they are pretty tired with dry eyes from fatigue and/or a lack of sleep, and don't want to quickly rush through "alright, gear-down, flaps 25, flaps 40-Landing Checklist" as you are waiting for Tower to give you the landing clearance on runway 35: did Approach say for the left or right?), or they say that a go-around might be needed due to a slam-dunk approach from ATC, or they say that they will call the Dispatcher to add a little extra fuel to the Release fuel figure with no alternate or extra/tanker fuel included...etc. If you suspect that, as you begin the Approach Check, you never really READ [maybe he never called for it during two altitude restrictions with VOR course changes thru 18,000'...] the Descent Check...what would you say or do? Hope this is not too much out of context and long.
The less delicate the other pilot'(s') cockpit ego, the easier it can be. But remember, two or three guys (i.e. male pilots, to contradict the modern American slang for guys and gals) together find it harder to communicate their basic doubts or concerns (are we rushing too much under these conditions?) to each other.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th Nov 2002 at 19:51.
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What does CRM stand for please? I've heard 2 explainations, forgot both! Sorry!......Another thing that has always accured to me, and that's is being on the flightdeck that much different from any other job when it comes to "getting on" and having the right "synergy" or rapport? Read this right now, I know full well piloting an airliner isn't the same as a "normal" job, I'd NEVER say that and I have nothing but absolute respect for you guys who are "lucky" enough to be doing it. It seems to me, the stuff I've been reading here on the forum, that pilots DO have a sense of humour, and are NOT stuck up snobs, (like they maybe once were?!), so why do it seem such an issue when it comes to sharing that little room up front with, at the end of the day, another bloke?
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Dictionary definition
To: Lump Jocky
If I remember correctly the original meaning of CRM was Cockpit Resources Management. The concept was originated by United Airlines after several bad experiences due to the lack of CRM.
If I remember correctly the original meaning of CRM was Cockpit Resources Management. The concept was originated by United Airlines after several bad experiences due to the lack of CRM.
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Lump Jockey:
Since the focus of attention in CRM has shifted from the pure technical aspect towards the human factor in the last decade, the C (in CRM) today is more frequently translated with “CREW”.
Since the focus of attention in CRM has shifted from the pure technical aspect towards the human factor in the last decade, the C (in CRM) today is more frequently translated with “CREW”.
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CRM: The use of all available resources in order to enable safe and efficient flight operations.
Communicate effectively, share your mental models, maintain high levels of situation awareness and make appropriate decisions. Lastly and not least REVIEW, REVIEW, REVIEW all your decisions. Easy innit?
Communicate effectively, share your mental models, maintain high levels of situation awareness and make appropriate decisions. Lastly and not least REVIEW, REVIEW, REVIEW all your decisions. Easy innit?
Some humor for the holidays, but there is a serious message here.
THE RIGHT SEAT
'First Officers Code of Ethics'
Survival Rules:-
Don't fly at night.
Don't fly in bad weather.
Keep your poor attitude a secret.
Don't sleep while your Captain is.
Never, ever eat a crew meal in the dark.
Talk up the advantages of early retirement.
Don't fly with a Captain nicknamed "Lucky".
Don't make better landings than your Captain.
Speak very, very softly when you speak to your Captain.
Never, ever awaken your Captain when he is smiling in his sleep.
Don't interfere if your Captain absolutely insists on making a fool of himself.
It's hell to fly with a nervous Captain, especially if you're the one making him nervous!
Keep your Captain out of the morgue, jail, the papers, FAA hearings, and Chief Pilot's office.
Always let your Captain be the first out the door of the airplane. After all, there may not be any stairs.
It's better to be down here, arguing about how you are going to do it up there; than to be up there arguing.
As a First Officer, your primary job is to detect and correct mistakes:-
1. First, your own mistakes.
2. Second, your Captain's mistakes.
3. Finally, everybody else's mistakes.
Don't expect your Captain to:-
Wear expensive uniform shoes;
Pick up the meal check on a layover;
Wear a small or inexpensive wristwatch;
Be impressed with your flying background;
Believe the FAA is doing a satisfactory job;
Purchase his own newspaper to read on a trip.
Hear and understand the ATC request the first time;
Buy anything without asking for an airline discount;
Respect the competency of senior airline management;
Think flying is more fun today than it was in the good old days;
The two basic rules of a Captain's authority:-
Rule One. The Captain is always right.
Rule Two. IF, the Captain is ever observed making a mistake, see Rule One.
When you upgrade to Captain, you must:-
1. Accept responsibility for being right all of the time.
2. Compensate for all of those inept and disrespectful Co-pilots.
With acknowledgements to Capt Bob Besco
Also see a paper by Bob Besco
To intervene or not to intervene? the co-pilot's catch 22.
“P.A.C.E.” Probing. Alerting, Challenging, and Emergency warning
The integration of crew resource management with operational procedures.
Sorry I do not have a source location for paper.
THE RIGHT SEAT
'First Officers Code of Ethics'
Survival Rules:-
Don't fly at night.
Don't fly in bad weather.
Keep your poor attitude a secret.
Don't sleep while your Captain is.
Never, ever eat a crew meal in the dark.
Talk up the advantages of early retirement.
Don't fly with a Captain nicknamed "Lucky".
Don't make better landings than your Captain.
Speak very, very softly when you speak to your Captain.
Never, ever awaken your Captain when he is smiling in his sleep.
Don't interfere if your Captain absolutely insists on making a fool of himself.
It's hell to fly with a nervous Captain, especially if you're the one making him nervous!
Keep your Captain out of the morgue, jail, the papers, FAA hearings, and Chief Pilot's office.
Always let your Captain be the first out the door of the airplane. After all, there may not be any stairs.
It's better to be down here, arguing about how you are going to do it up there; than to be up there arguing.
As a First Officer, your primary job is to detect and correct mistakes:-
1. First, your own mistakes.
2. Second, your Captain's mistakes.
3. Finally, everybody else's mistakes.
Don't expect your Captain to:-
Wear expensive uniform shoes;
Pick up the meal check on a layover;
Wear a small or inexpensive wristwatch;
Be impressed with your flying background;
Believe the FAA is doing a satisfactory job;
Purchase his own newspaper to read on a trip.
Hear and understand the ATC request the first time;
Buy anything without asking for an airline discount;
Respect the competency of senior airline management;
Think flying is more fun today than it was in the good old days;
The two basic rules of a Captain's authority:-
Rule One. The Captain is always right.
Rule Two. IF, the Captain is ever observed making a mistake, see Rule One.
When you upgrade to Captain, you must:-
1. Accept responsibility for being right all of the time.
2. Compensate for all of those inept and disrespectful Co-pilots.
With acknowledgements to Capt Bob Besco
Also see a paper by Bob Besco
To intervene or not to intervene? the co-pilot's catch 22.
“P.A.C.E.” Probing. Alerting, Challenging, and Emergency warning
The integration of crew resource management with operational procedures.
Sorry I do not have a source location for paper.
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Hi dean, you wrote:
'Is that the difference from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!" on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example.'
And in this specific instance, you should simply say, 'Gear up'. No names, no 'please' or 'thank you', and only 'now' if you're the commander, you are cast-iron certain that your reading of the sitaution is right, and that your colleague is delaying a vital action, which must be done urgently.
Niceties, compliments, etc., will define you as being a polite and pleasant individual in the office, briefing room, or bar. Clear, standard calls and responses in the flight deck will define you as a professional operator.
(Of course, if your Ops Manual says something other than 'Gear up', then you need to say what it says in the manual. All my life I've dreamed of finding an operator who still uses 'undercart'!!).
All the other stuff above about CRM is pretty well on target. Alternatively, we could talk about 'airmanship', except that this causes sharp intakes of breath by training-type-people and reduces your chances of career progression.
'Is that the difference from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!" on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example.'
And in this specific instance, you should simply say, 'Gear up'. No names, no 'please' or 'thank you', and only 'now' if you're the commander, you are cast-iron certain that your reading of the sitaution is right, and that your colleague is delaying a vital action, which must be done urgently.
Niceties, compliments, etc., will define you as being a polite and pleasant individual in the office, briefing room, or bar. Clear, standard calls and responses in the flight deck will define you as a professional operator.
(Of course, if your Ops Manual says something other than 'Gear up', then you need to say what it says in the manual. All my life I've dreamed of finding an operator who still uses 'undercart'!!).
All the other stuff above about CRM is pretty well on target. Alternatively, we could talk about 'airmanship', except that this causes sharp intakes of breath by training-type-people and reduces your chances of career progression.
QUOTE : So my point is in a multi crew enviroment how do I use good CRM?
Is that the differnce from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!"
on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example. END.
I was once doing a base check at Avalon and said to the Fleet Captain, "Gear Up Please".
To which he responded, "You're a Captain, you don't ask, you order!"
My reply was "I'll ask at least twice before I order".
Courtesy still applies in the cockpit.
Is that the differnce from saying "get that bloody gear up NOW!!"
on a go around or "Please retract the gear Joe" for example. END.
I was once doing a base check at Avalon and said to the Fleet Captain, "Gear Up Please".
To which he responded, "You're a Captain, you don't ask, you order!"
My reply was "I'll ask at least twice before I order".
Courtesy still applies in the cockpit.
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Quote: 'Courtesy still applies in the cockpit'.
So do your colleague(s) a favour and show them the courtesy of using correct operational words and phrases at all times and acknowledging that niceties are not for critical phases of flight.
Your fleet captain was right, in my view.
So do your colleague(s) a favour and show them the courtesy of using correct operational words and phrases at all times and acknowledging that niceties are not for critical phases of flight.
Your fleet captain was right, in my view.
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Rdp,
I think you are wrong and the previous poster is correct. In non-critical stages of flight a please or thankyou goes a long way cannot be misunderstood and helps to make the world go round. Our profession is anally retentive enough without anachronistic people advocating not saying please and thankyou. If the plane is on fire fair enough, there is a time and a place for everything but lets not discourage a little common sense and decency.
I think you are wrong and the previous poster is correct. In non-critical stages of flight a please or thankyou goes a long way cannot be misunderstood and helps to make the world go round. Our profession is anally retentive enough without anachronistic people advocating not saying please and thankyou. If the plane is on fire fair enough, there is a time and a place for everything but lets not discourage a little common sense and decency.
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Don't get me wrong. I'm very happy with 'Would you get me the weather for Goose Bay, please?', but anything below FL100 or so should not involve words not written in the Ops Manual. Have you ever read a CVR transcript from an incident/accident, and thought 'why all the non-operationally-necessary words and phrases?'. That is reason enough to stick to what's in the book. No more, no less.
PS, check your dictionary. I'm not being anachronistic.
PS, check your dictionary. I'm not being anachronistic.
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Thank you Atropos, I don't need to check my dictionary. Might I suggest you check yours and consider whether I was in fact being anti-anachronistic?
Or perhaps whether I was being anachronistic or not depends, in this instance, upon your reading of that which is 'in-time'. I submit that as current published advice and instruction including my company's Manuals indicates that the use of niceties in the flight deck should be avoided, I am very much in keeping with the time. You may wish to criticise that advice as being out-of-time, and could possibly twist the term in an effort to do so, but I don't feel that this would be a winnable argument... Are you suggesting that many authors of Ops Manuals are out of step with curent safe practice?
Or perhaps whether I was being anachronistic or not depends, in this instance, upon your reading of that which is 'in-time'. I submit that as current published advice and instruction including my company's Manuals indicates that the use of niceties in the flight deck should be avoided, I am very much in keeping with the time. You may wish to criticise that advice as being out-of-time, and could possibly twist the term in an effort to do so, but I don't feel that this would be a winnable argument... Are you suggesting that many authors of Ops Manuals are out of step with curent safe practice?
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There is no proof, that I am aware of, that being polite on the flight deck, saying please and thank you etc. has ever impinged on flight safety and any suggestion that being polite is unprofessional is purely in the minds of those who elect not to do so.
The fact that a company actually puts guidance/instructions in it's SOPs to the effect that such words and phrases are improper often only reflects the opinion of the individual with responsibility for writing that particular section or chapter and can be amended out with little difficulty - no worthwhile aviation authority is going to get worked up over such trivia.
My most unpleaseant time as an FO was when flying with an ex USN pilot who was never heard to be polite to anyone. The atmosphere on the flight deck was always tense and generated a fertile environment for errors, large or small.
In thirty six years flying I have tried to maintain a correct and polite stance when dealing with all issues, normal or abnormal and have never been censured for it once.
I believe Atropos and dogcharlietree are correct in their approach to this issue.
The fact that a company actually puts guidance/instructions in it's SOPs to the effect that such words and phrases are improper often only reflects the opinion of the individual with responsibility for writing that particular section or chapter and can be amended out with little difficulty - no worthwhile aviation authority is going to get worked up over such trivia.
My most unpleaseant time as an FO was when flying with an ex USN pilot who was never heard to be polite to anyone. The atmosphere on the flight deck was always tense and generated a fertile environment for errors, large or small.
In thirty six years flying I have tried to maintain a correct and polite stance when dealing with all issues, normal or abnormal and have never been censured for it once.
I believe Atropos and dogcharlietree are correct in their approach to this issue.
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Our SOP include specific standardized phrases for "commands" which strictly preclude individualizations.
It's: "Gear Down!"
Not: "Landing Gear Down."
Not: "Gear Lever Down."
Not: "Landing Gear Lever Down."
Not: "Gear Down, please." (Nothing to do with "politeness").
But we do say: "could you please lower the temperature a little?"
It's: "Gear Down!"
Not: "Landing Gear Down."
Not: "Gear Lever Down."
Not: "Landing Gear Lever Down."
Not: "Gear Down, please." (Nothing to do with "politeness").
But we do say: "could you please lower the temperature a little?"
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GlueBall,
You're spot on! Thanks for that!
BlueEagle,
Very sorry to read your first paragraph. I agree entirely with the sentiment expressed there, but there is a time and a place, as GlueBall so ably shows.
As someone who writes bits of the Ops Manuals for a biggish company, I take exception to your remarks about willy-nilly amendments to manuals. Changes are made for a good reason following discussion, not to satisfy individual whim, at least in my mob.
Does your experience extend to being aware of the 'Cheer up!' accident some years ago?
You're spot on! Thanks for that!
BlueEagle,
Very sorry to read your first paragraph. I agree entirely with the sentiment expressed there, but there is a time and a place, as GlueBall so ably shows.
As someone who writes bits of the Ops Manuals for a biggish company, I take exception to your remarks about willy-nilly amendments to manuals. Changes are made for a good reason following discussion, not to satisfy individual whim, at least in my mob.
Does your experience extend to being aware of the 'Cheer up!' accident some years ago?