CRM Advice
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
There is less likelyhood of a mistake being made in understanding a request for a selection of any switch, lever, or control movement if clear precise words are used. ie. "gear down" rather than "could you put the gear down honey"
Being polite is more a tone of voice and body langiuage than the use of flowery phrases.
CRM is all about safety and understandable commands for any needed action.
Trying to tie CRM with being politically or socially correct is counterproductive to good airmanship and crew co-ordination.
An a.. ho.. is still an a.. ho.. even when they are being polite.
Cat Driver:
Being polite is more a tone of voice and body langiuage than the use of flowery phrases.
CRM is all about safety and understandable commands for any needed action.
Trying to tie CRM with being politically or socially correct is counterproductive to good airmanship and crew co-ordination.
An a.. ho.. is still an a.. ho.. even when they are being polite.
Cat Driver:
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Yes Rumbo I have, for many years, heard the oft repeated anecdote about "Cheer Up", but have never found anyone who could actually quote the incident!
I do not subscribe to saying something like, "Would you be so kind as to raise the gear?" I believe that saying something like that would be plain stupid, but, a simple 'Please' and ' Thank You' should not confuse the issue.
Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you don't know of a single incident anywhere amongst the Ops Manuals you have had dealings with where an indivudual has not influenced the input? I have seen, in both very large and very small companies, items included under one reign only to be deleted under another, I am sure you have too.
I do not subscribe to saying something like, "Would you be so kind as to raise the gear?" I believe that saying something like that would be plain stupid, but, a simple 'Please' and ' Thank You' should not confuse the issue.
Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you don't know of a single incident anywhere amongst the Ops Manuals you have had dealings with where an indivudual has not influenced the input? I have seen, in both very large and very small companies, items included under one reign only to be deleted under another, I am sure you have too.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: uk
Chaps,
Don't misunderstand me. If the kite's on fire after take off its GEAR UP. On a nice sunny day with no problems Gear Up please is what I say. You can argue till you are blue in the face about what that might cause. I would suggest the only thing it does is engender the right sort of atmosphere in the flight deck!
Don't misunderstand me. If the kite's on fire after take off its GEAR UP. On a nice sunny day with no problems Gear Up please is what I say. You can argue till you are blue in the face about what that might cause. I would suggest the only thing it does is engender the right sort of atmosphere in the flight deck!
Props are for boats!
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 994
Likes: 0
From: An Asian Hub
OK guys have read the posts, I am in the belief of keeping to your sops even if it means Sterile Cockpit below FL100 ,which sounds a bit of an overkill unless its the Concorde.
I am Small Turbo Prop Captain in a type that is really a single pilot Airplane. I went from 3500HRS of singlepilot ops to 2 Crew Ops last year as a start off Captain. During my training I made all the mistakes including niceties, of which the Company Check Captain and Authority Testing Officer both said that nicities should remain outside. So I went to work with this in the back of my head. I did fell tense, the first couple of months, but have eased off now. I can asure that most of us, faced with an Emergency the nicities will definitely be naturaly left out of the procedure.
What erks me is the apparent 2 different theories expressed in this thread. Surley CRM in 2002 has eliminated any uncertainty in this area. I know Flight Safety believes in a sterile cockpit analogy, and all nonessential words minimized.
Just my 2 cents worth
I am Small Turbo Prop Captain in a type that is really a single pilot Airplane. I went from 3500HRS of singlepilot ops to 2 Crew Ops last year as a start off Captain. During my training I made all the mistakes including niceties, of which the Company Check Captain and Authority Testing Officer both said that nicities should remain outside. So I went to work with this in the back of my head. I did fell tense, the first couple of months, but have eased off now. I can asure that most of us, faced with an Emergency the nicities will definitely be naturaly left out of the procedure.
What erks me is the apparent 2 different theories expressed in this thread. Surley CRM in 2002 has eliminated any uncertainty in this area. I know Flight Safety believes in a sterile cockpit analogy, and all nonessential words minimized.
Just my 2 cents worth
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
From: SV Marie Celeste
There are nice ways of saying 'GEAR UP' and very abrasive ways of saying 'GEAR UP PLEASE'. The problem is using the SOP's as an excuse to grumpy and offhand behaviuor.
The point must be that a good atmosphere in the cockpit contributes to the team effort and improves comunication and safety. The party really begins in the crewroom. Is this one of the points of CRM?. More experienced people can perhaps say.
The point must be that a good atmosphere in the cockpit contributes to the team effort and improves comunication and safety. The party really begins in the crewroom. Is this one of the points of CRM?. More experienced people can perhaps say.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,704
Likes: 1
From: Who can say?
I find myself in agreement with both sides here, but mostly with calypso.
Like many Brits, I find it very hard to leave out the "please". However, I work for a non-British carrier whose philosophy is very non-British (surprie, surprise!
) and who cannot understand why their British employees feel the need to include it.
The manner in which things are said can, as calypso points out, make a huge difference, and if the SOPs state that you leave it out then it is a little unprofessional not to make an effort to leave it out.
After all, saying word like "please" and "thank you" do not comprise the entirety of the atmosphere on the flight deck.
Like many Brits, I find it very hard to leave out the "please". However, I work for a non-British carrier whose philosophy is very non-British (surprie, surprise!
) and who cannot understand why their British employees feel the need to include it.The manner in which things are said can, as calypso points out, make a huge difference, and if the SOPs state that you leave it out then it is a little unprofessional not to make an effort to leave it out.
After all, saying word like "please" and "thank you" do not comprise the entirety of the atmosphere on the flight deck.
Joined: Feb 1998
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,595
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From: Formerly of Nam
Ive done quite a few CRM modules over the years and yeh I agree with the concept - when I was an F.O. years ago it was in the age of "F.O.s should be seen and not heard." It p!ssed me off a bit but I lived with it. Nowadays I think this new CRM stuff is a good thing.
What is very bloodey anoying is CRM is the catchcry of weak crew members - "Hes not using CRM!" and a 40yo captain with 20 years in the game is hauled in because of a complaining 21yo Quake generation wonder-boy. This complaining is esp so from those whos situational awareness is crap. There are SOME THINGS that can be done without having a discusion when its obvious even to a tree-stump that that particuler action must be done.
CRM comes naturaley to profesionals who know there stuff. The varius modules enhance and strengthen it which Im all for. But its also become a weapon used to prop up the importance of some egos.
What is very bloodey anoying is CRM is the catchcry of weak crew members - "Hes not using CRM!" and a 40yo captain with 20 years in the game is hauled in because of a complaining 21yo Quake generation wonder-boy. This complaining is esp so from those whos situational awareness is crap. There are SOME THINGS that can be done without having a discusion when its obvious even to a tree-stump that that particuler action must be done.
CRM comes naturaley to profesionals who know there stuff. The varius modules enhance and strengthen it which Im all for. But its also become a weapon used to prop up the importance of some egos.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
There have been many incidents and accidents were invetigations have revealed that the crew overlooked important information.
As a consequance CRM was develloped in order to cope with this problem.
Since it is the captains responsability to conduct a flight safely, it is also his responsability that an enviroment is created that allow everybody involved in the safe conduct of a flight to have an input.
We are all human beings and as such we make mistakes, realising this is opening the door to good CRM.
There are a lot of pitfalls in human communication realizing this will lead the way.
As a consequance CRM was develloped in order to cope with this problem.
Since it is the captains responsability to conduct a flight safely, it is also his responsability that an enviroment is created that allow everybody involved in the safe conduct of a flight to have an input.
We are all human beings and as such we make mistakes, realising this is opening the door to good CRM.
There are a lot of pitfalls in human communication realizing this will lead the way.
Last edited by Cap 56; 22nd May 2004 at 13:52.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,323
Likes: 54
From: An Island Province
Here is a link for the PACE reference – safetypee 23 Dec post. P.A.C.E. see PACE 1.
Although this paper was written with the co-pilot in mind, the principles apply to all crew, especially when in the primary monitoring role. Also, see PACE 2 at the bottom of the web page, this is a similar paper, but with examples.
A more recent view of CRM, being more focussed on threat and error management, in addition to using all available resources in order to enable safe and efficient flight operations, is here The Evolution of Crew Resource Management Training
--------------------
Unless specifically authorized everything else is forbidden.
Although this paper was written with the co-pilot in mind, the principles apply to all crew, especially when in the primary monitoring role. Also, see PACE 2 at the bottom of the web page, this is a similar paper, but with examples.
A more recent view of CRM, being more focussed on threat and error management, in addition to using all available resources in order to enable safe and efficient flight operations, is here The Evolution of Crew Resource Management Training
--------------------
Unless specifically authorized everything else is forbidden.
