"Contempt" for Cabin Crew

[Shadowpurser]

I have had the displeasure of flying with a Captain in the last year who I have to say was less than sociable, rude, abrupt, and in fact seemed to enjoy ramming the fact the HE IS THE CAPTAIN down my and indeed everyone elses throats showing us about as much respect as something you'd find under your toe nails.

NOW before you all jump on me as has happened in the past I must point out a few things.

I have no problem or grey area about who is in charge - the Captain IS in charge and ultimate responsibility does rest with everything on his shoulders. However there is a "way" to approach things and "hat on" all the time I think is not always the best way.

This was not an isolated incident. I am all for gving people a second chance and certainly have had "off days" myself so second time I had a flight with this person I was all for a clean sheet. To my dismay the same attitude prevailed including one particular petty thing about hurrrying the crew off the A/C (which if anyone knows we are normally on bus packed up ready to go before you can say epilettes!!) so he and the FO could return to JB house to get paperwork for next flight which if I am correct can be brought to the next A/C by a dispatcher anyway and this is in no way an unusual or out of the ordinary proceedure. Also without mentioning it other crews have encountered this attitude as well, so it's not just my "larger than life" personality making him feel a bit out of or not in control.

Finally my ex flew with him recently (she is an FO) and while saying that he was actually an ok guy and her opinion of him had actually improved over the course of the trip (incidently most FO's find him fine to fly with) she also concurred on his attitude to the crew , finding it embarressing, and shockingly to the point of CONTEMPT!!! He also enjoyed telling her about how he'd flexed his stripes at other crews establishing his authority and show what a big man he was.

My point is - is that there is a possibility this kind of attitude is dangerous and does not breed the kind of synergy and CRM atmosphere that is required for a safe harmonious flight. No one wants to look stupid by reporting something that is nothing to the pilots, but this kind of negative attitude does not help or aid this line of communication. It breeds the kind of "think twice" attitude that could waste valueable time in a serious situation or worse still let something go totally unreported.

For ALL reading this thread (and I hope the person in question) - if this is your attitude to your crews you fly with every day YOU NEED TO CHANGE it...NOW!! Before something serious happens and it's purely down to your pityfull attitude towards your crews. I for one now am not going to put up with it any more and intend to do something about this person should I encounter him and this attitude again. I do not want pee on anyones Bar-B-Q but in an industry where safety is paramount this is not the way to go.

Your crew are a resource that need to utilised and looked after just like the rest of your A/C. Treating them badly results in wear and tear and subsequently possible system failure which can mean disaster in a worse case scenario.

Of course I'll start with a some "developmental feedback" first on a one-to-one basis first as I hope all people would before resorting to paperwork and putting blotches on peoples records, and I hope that he is a big enough person to take it on the chin.

Sorry peeps just had to vent my anger somewhere on this subject as it doesn't take much to be nice in this world and I find it a real effort to be horrible. Plus if this helps one person to look at themselves for a minute and see that maybe they could be just a little bit nicer to their crew and get so much more back in return as well as a safer opperation, then all this typing has been worth it.

[411A]

Shadowpurser,

I have not changed my modus operandi with cabin crew in twenty five+ years.

Say hello, give the flight and expected wx details, and say...if I can be of assistance, please let me know. YOU are in charge in the cabin.

Works every time. No problemo.

[FWA NATCA]

Shawdow,

In 16 years of riding in the jump seat I've only encountered one captain that was a real ass. I have nothing but respect and admiration of all the other flight crews that I've encountered over the years.
Mike

[BlueEagle]

Shadowpurser - Step one would be to try and talk to this chap, 1 on 1, explain how you and the others you have discussed it with feel and quite simply, "What is wrong?" Be sure to have your facts and details ready as he may ask, "and when was all this supposed to have happened?" etc. etc.

If you know certain F/O's well enough you could get them to do a bit of detective work as well, try and find out why he chooses to be so rude and difficult.

After Step One, if it doesn't work, you will have to consider what other proper grievance procedures are open to you within your company. Strongly suggest that if it gets to this stage you have by now become a group! Each member should have their own version of separate events so that it can be seen that this is a widespread and ongoing situation.

Finally, as I remember from my days as a F/O, being the only other crew member to turn up for the captain's room party, listening to a very sad tale of how he had been seriously dobbed in to management by some cabin crew previously over some incident or misdemeanour, details got to his wife and he finished up divorced, broke and demoted!!! Thereafter he found it hard to be nice to CC. NOT the way to handle such a situation but I just mention it in case it has some relevance to your case.

Best of luck, do your groundwork very thoroughly and make sure you have all your facts and details absoloutely correct.

[L337]

Some very nasty people sit in the left hand seat. Some sit in the right hand seat, and some work in the cabin. If at all possible they are best avoided. Or if they are unavoidable, bite your tongue. CRM and all that..... But good CRM can be the non avoidance of conflict.

However, if it is a safety issue, then things are more difficult. You have to decide if it needs to go further.

Ask around. If everyone thinks he is an idiot, you will feel much better. If it is just you!! Then it is a personality clash, and just suck it up and move right along.

I do remember flying with a Captain, when I was new to BA, and he was vile to fly with. I hated him. Five years later I flew with him, and he was fun to fly with! He had not changed, I had. As a new pilot I was confused and defensive, and found his dry humour difficult to cope with. Years later, I gave as good as I got, and we got on like a house on fire!

Strange things people.

L337.

[flapsforty]

Shadow, have you tried talking with him about it?
Had a similar spot of bother this week.
Asked the captain for a wee chat in the cockpit during the turn around. He got very angry at me for even suggesting anything was wrong "under his command". But I managed to stay calm and to use all the techniques the company had ever paid good money to teach me. (even if I could have choked the b*stard with his own tie right there in his seat)
Convo wasn't at all pleasant, he shouted and I severely regretted opening my mouth halfway through.

But on the return leg the bloke was polite. The FA's greatly relieved that he'd stopped barking at them and me drained but pleased with myself for having confronted the situation.
PAx never noticed anything was amiss and we even scored a compliment letter from positioning crew for the happy atmosphere aboard.

Not saying that it always works, first time I've been in this situation in fact.
But perhaps worth a try?

[Atropos]

Shadow,
Do I take it you are BA SH at LGW? If so I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. We are generally pretty lucky at LGW not to have as big a them and us thing as they do at LHR. There are a few status issues doing the rounds at the moment, I hope this isn't a symptom of this problem.

[Greenfinch]

Sad fact is you will always meet w@nkers in any job. Thankfully they are few and far between in my present company. However, in my last Co. I spent alot of time flying with one of the biggest t0ssers known to man, and in 13 months working with him he didn't change despite being openly despised by most people he encountered. For me personally, watching him was an object lesson in how NOT to deal with people, so in that respect I guess I learned something from him for when it's my turn to occupy the left seat !

[Mowgli]

SP

No one should have to put up with superiors who are ignorant and rude, but unfortunately they exist. I had to spend 10 hours sat next to a capt who'd chewed my head off before we'd started a trip and it seemed like 10 days! He was totally in the wrong and was also wrong about what he'd criticised me for (I checked the SOPs). It was a distraction and as such was a threat to safety, but I judged that I could perform despite the feeling of rage that had been caused. Others have complained about him, but I see my role as an FO to try and maintain the correct authority gradient despite the challenge that the ***hole sat next to me makes it. I reason that if I can do that, then I am more professional than him, who deserves my sympathy for having such a sad life. For this individual though, he has had his last chance with me, and if he ever pulls a stunt like the last one (before flight) I shall inform him that he will need to call ops and ask for another FO. I feel confident in doing this because he has a history of this behaviour. I would expect that he would ask me to reconsider which I would, provided he promised to behave reasonably. On the trip in question, he ignored me for nearly all the flight, but towards the destination, we had some serious weather to think about and then he started talking to me like a professional (he needed me then), so I suppose it proved that he hadn't damaged our relationship so much that we couldn't perform when things got tricky.

My advice is to look at these individuals as a challenge. You will learn about man management (how not to do it) and you will learn a lot about yourself. I do worry about the effect this individual might have on someone less experienced than me, or someone with fragile confidence. To this end I have discussed this individual with a trainer who had previously made me aware that other FOs had complained, and therefore I feel I have done all I can to ensure that our passengers will be in safe hands.

[Ignition Override]

How about special people, from inside the pilot's union or other organization, such as "Professional Standards", who can help with these things? Does the pilot group there, or at other airlines, not have a group of pilots with specialized skills and solutions for this? Any resolution committee, before any contacts with company management pilots, should be reached first.

Does this 'first step' exist only on the west side of the Atlantic Ocean? This function was created to help prevent any compromises to flight safety, and avoid very sticky involvement with company management. Isn't flight safety (while also protecting one's career) the main goal?

[Shadowpurser]

Sorry for taking so long to reply on this thread. And thank you all for your replies and support and those of you who have pm'd me too supporting me and with your thoughts and experiances as well.

We'll I am pleased to inform you that I've not encountered him again (as of yet). But I have however encountered others who have, and needless to say the trail of ignorance and stupidity leads on...sadly.

But it seems I am not the only person prepared to make a stand as others have already challenged some of his decisions I have found out. So I am not alone by any means.

People like this who choose to wave their stripes around like a sword will eventually fall on it themselves, all you have to do is give them the room to do it. But I have no hesitancy in speaking up.

Anyway...As has been said these people are always in the minority, in fact this person is the only one I can think of I've ever met. So if that's the ratio we have to live with...well...I think we've got the recruitment process about right!!!

Thanks all again - and if you do have any more thoughts or experiances...please do post them. They are helpful to all, and if it helps one person to look at themselves and maybe think they should make a change in themselves and their behaviour for the better, then it's got to be a good thing for everyone!!!

P.S. Atropos

He is with you and me at SHLGW, but hey.... the rest of you guys more than make up for him. I can honestley say I've never worked in such a fantastic environment where the people make a job...a joy!!!...not a chore. Something I not so sure people on other fleets may be able to say.

But you gotta stop telling those jokes mate he he or we'll be lynching you next!!!

[Plane*jane]

A bit late in joining in on this debate, but I would like to add to the excellent replies so far.
Someone mentioned "if safety was involved" I would like to remind everyone of the disasterous consequences of intimidating attitudes. Remember Dryden where at the inquest, the only surviving cabin crew Sonia Hardwick was asked at the inquest why, when pax were expressing concern at the snow on the wings, she had failed to voice those concerns to the Captain, who was quite a sincere and conscientious pilot (yes read the report). Her answer was that on a previous flight across to Goose Bay with another crew, they had felt some vibration in the cabin. Pax were concerned, so she went to the FD to ask the Cpt if all was well and was greeted with a scathing and withering response of "take your seat". She said she was so humiliated by that and believed that she had "overstepped" her area of work, she resolved never to discuss flight conditions with any other crew. I could go on...Kegworth....

So the actions of this Cpt could have a nasty ripple effect on how CC treat ALL FD crew, a natural human failing. Safety is indeed involved and CRM is about creating a " friendly relaxed and supportive" environment where information flows freely.

Yes he does need to be tackled very directly BUT not aggressively. The braid on the hat does not mean he is immune to constructive criticism. Next flight could have your family on board, so just "putting up with it" is a cowards way out. It depends on the temprament of those involved how they tackle this, but as an example, I would probably point out that I was not happy with the tone he took with CC, and progress that on to what he hoped to achieve with that sort of attitude. Getting people to explain their actions is a good start. Ride the storm if it comes with calming him to a point of rationality, and quote examples of accidents that happened with CPTs with intimidating attitudes. Facts are always better. I've done it myself on occasion, to good effect. The trick is to remain calm and pleasant. It's really hard to get nasty with people who are friendly. He should be giving reasons for his actions in any case, and wanting the papers for the next flight shows he is very much the box ticking planning mode and gets agitated without sufficient preparation. Educated guess no more. Just an observation.

I have come very late into aviation from top industry, and I am very sad at the lack of basic management skills with people who are capable and willing to learn. I include a bit of coaching in my CRM courses and pilots have been very encouraged and complimentary as this is often the first time they have analysed behaviours and been shown skills how to manage them in the flight. But it's just a drop in the ocean.

[Captain Stable]

Very good point there Jane - not only are we trying to avoid discouraging the cabin crew from bringing things to our attention, but we are also trying to overcome any previous negative effect induced by the attitude of other flight deck crew.

It's incredibly important to remember that, for those flight deck crew who have been flying much of their lives and are seen by the more junior members of aircrew as the old, hoary ones (I'm probably seen much that way! ) there's not a great deal that will really faze us. The more experienced cabin crew members are a real asset when things are going hairy. The more junior, inexperienced ones with little experience even of life since leaving school will be scared, apprehensive and wondering if they can cope with the job they've been landed with. Snapping at them when the pressure is on will probably push them mentally into a corner and they'll be useless for the rest of the emergency.

Instead it's important to encourage them, keep them going, show you have confidence in them. Then, hopefully, they will have confidence in themselves and get the job done.

The more experienced ones will carry on regardless, but you need to hear what they have to say. Use them as a valuable resource.

Whatever your ego tells you - you cannot do it alone when it all goes pear-shaped and the panels are lighting up like a Christmas tree.

OK - so I talk a good emergency. I shall spare my own blushes and not publicise what I actually did on a recent LOFT exercise! :o Do as I say - not as I did!

[Ignition Override]

As for intimidation, or creating resentment, have most of you all ever read about the Western Airlines (later bought by Delta Airlines) DC-10 crash in Mexico City? There was apparently equipment on a runway and the FO or the FE might have been aware of the danger.

I don't know if the other crewmembers forgot which runway had the hazards, or if they just let the Captain continue the approach and landing, hoping that he would see it and go around. Haven't read about it in a long time.

Anyway, certain sources claim that when the FO, either on the doomed flight or a previous one, pointed out a danger to the Captain, the Captain said something like "If I need anything from you, I'll rattle your cage".

Does anyone know the details?

[quixote]

After 40 years experience I don't think there's much you can do about a rude senior; it's a question of character.
Have seen three lose their commands as a direct result of having alienated their colleagues and crews.
The first humiliated and rejected anyone who reported a problem - she lost her command after a fuel shortage which others suspected but didn't report to her because she would have humiliated the messenger.
The second lost his command after a blatant safety violation reported to the regulator by his crew; he had become so disliked that they were waiting for him to make a reportable error.
The third was up on a marginal safety issue; he would have got off with his colleagues' support but they turned their backs and let him sink.

Don

[West Coast]

I/O
A search of NTSB records came up with it. 10/31/79 Mexico City, 72 fatal. Captain was faulted on a number of things. Not a computer guy otherwise I would link it. WWW.NTSB.GOV use the query page and you should be able to find it. Not much to it and not in a reader friendly foremat

[West Coast]

hmmm.. I gues just typing www automatically provides a link, or someone did it for me