Safety, CRM, QA & Emergency Response Planning A wide ranging forum for issues facing Aviation Professionals and Academics

How do you brief?

Reply

Old 20th May 2018, 08:59
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Asia
Posts: 152
How do you brief?

Hello guys,

I am a junior first officer flying around the Asian region and I just keep noticing the way we brief is very 'boring' and basically just keep nodding and saying 'checked' every 5-8 seconds seems to do the trick and many times you just start daydreaming because the person sitting next to you is just going over things which are not relevant to the flight. For example, one guy inserts the F-PLN in the computer while the other guy checks, however, he briefs the full SID waypoints and speed restrictions despite cross-checking them together silently against a chart just a few minutes ago. So I started asking my colleagues in the other parts of the world and turns out most of them are the same us with the exception of a few leading airlines which always seem to be ahead in re-thinking and re-designing the way to a common sense way. Anyone experienced that and how would you deal with it? Furthermore, this is an excellent article by Royal Aeronautical Society which talks about this specific problem

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/briefing-better/

Happy Reading
Radar Contact is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 12:32
  #2 (permalink)  

ECON cruise, LR cruise...
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 46
Posts: 564
We brief and do the FMS check at the same time - to avoid task duplication, which does, as you say, lead to people 'switching a bit off'....
Empty Cruise is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2018, 08:54
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Montreal
Posts: 6
Very interesting topic. Especially when flying multiple sectors a day, a standardised briefing tends to become routine and who can really say they're still listening 100% after the second one.
I have heard that some airlines have moved towards just briefing the specials for a departure or approach, to only brief things that need attention or that are different.

Where I fly we each check our FMS set up independantly. Once ready for briefing we keep it short such as "route acc. to FMS, which is checked" . Dont have to read all the points and altutude/speed restrictions. Thats where people will start to tune out.
Daveler is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 14:01
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 353
In the company I work for we only do like about 20ish different destinations. Most of them are daily flights. By the book, when the PF is done with the FMS, the PM will check it and then the PF will brief. Of course it includes a long and boring briefing of the SID/STAR and approach plates. In daily operation, I almost never brief as we are very familiar with the airports we fly to. I will ask my colleague if he has any doubts, and unless he is a new guy and wants a briefing, that's the end of it: '' Standard briefing''. Period. I rather keep my energy and focus on flying the plane instead of wasting time talking unnecessarily. Maybe a quick mention about threats or special procedures if applicable. If weather is marginal, I will quickly recall the items for the go around and what's my intention in case of missed approach. Most of the time, I will review in my head the emergency procedure in case of rejected take off and the go around items during the approach '' just in case''.
pineteam is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 18:34
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 62
Posts: 3
Very short, very brief. I remember being bored to death with morons attempting to give me every possible thing they could think of in every in a non-brief brief they could regurgitate. If you can’t get done in an a minute or so you are probably dealing with very special airport or, more likely, “special” people. After about a minute or so the opening items will have been forgotten and if the dross continues, the rest will be ignored. And let’s face it, when you are somewhere new or very different, most of the non-standard items willl have been discussed beforehand during the set-up. If you want to see a classic, totally imbecilic and unsafe brief, try

It takes nearly five minutes before you realise the clown in the left hand seat is NOT the PF. However, this is a perfect illustration of “how not to do it.”

PM

Last edited by Piltdown Man; 24th May 2018 at 13:52. Reason: Wrong seat.
Piltdown Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2018, 09:39
  #6 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's my turn
Posts: 1,510
That cant be real!
Chesty Morgan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2018, 16:34
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 63
Posts: 787
What is the purpose of any briefing?

One reasonable definition is that a briefing serves to:

verify that the cockpit set-up is as required;
highlight specific threats and how to manage them;
share ones mental model in order to align expectations;
rehearse any specific discrete procedures, e.g. engine-out SID;
agree on possible plans of action in the event of a ‘non-normal’; and
set an open tone that will encourage either crew member to speak up and question any deviation from SOPs or the plan outlined during the briefing.

A good way to achieve the above is to keep briefings short and relevant. The ‘briefer’ should facilitate active engagement of the other party by asking open questions that require the ‘receiver’ to think for themselves.

A good example in the video clip is when the Captain states, “there are no NOTAMS to affect our taxi route” (or words to that effect). A better style would be to ask the First Officer, “which NOTAMS did you see that might affect our taxi route?”
eckhard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2018, 17:08
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,619
From RAeS ‘Briefing Better’
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/briefing-better/
safetypee is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2018, 17:58
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,774
Wow, not quite how I remember things.......

Ok, left hand seat departure, full length 33. Standard Cowly departure stop altitude 6000. Emergency brief standard - any questions

Ok, standard 15 arrival, flap 25 landing, idle reverse, minima 600 Qnh. Standard go around stop altitude 3000...any questions.

I may exaggerate a little but you get the drift.
beamer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2018, 16:09
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 353
Originally Posted by Piltdown Man View Post

It takes nearly five minutes before you realise the clown in the left hand seat is NOT the PF. However, this is a perfect illustration of how not to do it.


LOL!! It was painful to watch until the end!
pineteam is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2018, 15:34
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 316
Long routine briefings on familiar departures/arrivals fit the definition of too many university lectures: "a system whereby the notes of the lecturer pass into the notebook of the student without passing through the minds of either".

In some airlines you could cause great alarm by answering the routine "Any questions?" with "Yes!"

For familiar airports it's much better to ask a question or try, "Let's run through together our actions in the event of an engine failure on take off."

Very important in a routine operation is "What's different to-day?"

(I've had people run through a boring let-down brief at a Canary island on a gin-clear day without mentioning the strong possibility of wind-shear).
scotbill is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Jun 2018, 16:31
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 52
Posts: 2,132
It takes nearly five minutes before you realise the clown in the left hand seat is NOT the PF. However, this is a perfect illustration of “how not to do it.”
Piltdown, it takes 30 sec IF you listen, as you should, when the old man briefs. He says: its your leg.

But apart from that Id say I agree with your post. Used to fly with a chap who babbled 5 minutes in continuous monotone voice before t/o...bored me to death.

Last edited by His dudeness; 23rd Jun 2018 at 09:06.
His dudeness is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Jun 2018, 08:15
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 62
Posts: 3
Guilty as charged. I exaggerated. But he’s still a pretentious clown.

PM
Piltdown Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 15th Jun 2018, 12:15
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 52
Posts: 2,132
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by Piltdown Man View Post
But hes still a pretentious clown.


+1
His dudeness is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 15th Jun 2018, 17:37
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 353
Originally Posted by Piltdown Man View Post
Guilty as charged. I exaggerated. But he’s still a pretentious clown.

PM
+1000. And your post #5 above made my day big time. I’m still LMAO. xD
pineteam is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd Jun 2018, 15:30
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,144
Very interesting topic. Especially when flying multiple sectors a day, a standardised briefing tends to become routine and who can really say they're still listening 100% after the second one
Forty years ago I was jump seating in an F28 of Ansett Airlines of West Australia. The airline had very few destinations and each leg was over arid desert lands of the aborigines and not one blade of green grass to see for a thousand miles. The airline SOP required the captain to brief the first officer at top of climb on crew actions required for rapid depressurisation and emergency descent. The first officer must have heard that same brief a thousand times as he had been with the airline for many years.
I watched and listened carefully from the jump seat as the captain started his spiel. First he turned his head to look outside his own side window at the desert below and in a bored expressionless voice started with "In event of a rapid depressurisation, we will don our oxygen masks and ensure communication. You will call ATC - I will do this - you will do that etc etc " as he went through the entire planned drill which took about 45 seconds of him talking while still staring into space outside his side window.

As soon as the captain started this robotic talking the first officer looked at me and winked then proceeded to make faces and waving his hands around and generally behaving like a clown while giving the finger to the captain's back. . With exquisite timing borne of long experience until with a few seconds to spare before the captain was due to turn around and say "Any questions" the first officer was back in position looking straight ahead in studied monitoring of his part of the flight deck. "No questions, Captain" he said. . The captain with his career long seniority within the airline union didn't have a clue at the charade that went on during his SOP briefing . I treasured that scene for its hilarity. Unprofessional? Of course it was. But brought on by the hours of soulless flying over that part of the Australian landscape only the dingoes, kangaroos and red-back spiders would love..

Last edited by Tee Emm; 23rd Jun 2018 at 15:53.
Tee Emm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 24th Jun 2018, 16:33
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West Coast Canada
Posts: 3,118
I briefly worked for one operator with a hard policy that the ridiculously long brief had to be done for every leg of the 3 leg triangle we flew everyday. We started timing the brief to see who could say all the words in the shortest time. I established the record time by breath stacking and then doing the whole brief in one breath talking as fast as I could.
Big Pistons Forever is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 26th Jun 2018, 06:35
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 49
Posts: 2,566
The key is in the BRIEF part of briefing! Otherwise it would be called a longing...

Here at EK we have supposedly moved to a more interactive style whereby the PF asks questions of the PM - as Eckhard alludes to in post 7. And even with that style you only need to touch on the expected differences, if any, from the SOPs.

A vital, to my mind anyway, item to brief though even if we are happy with 'standard XXX' for the arrival is to brief the GA procedure; this is what gets screwed up the most!
White Knight is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 26th Jun 2018, 07:23
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 63
Posts: 787
Yes, especially “how” you are going to do it, i.e. which buttons, levers and in which order including expected FMAs, etc.

It seems that there must be a difference between briefing styles, depending on the crewing and operational situation:

Two pilots who know each other well and are flying the same aircraft on a limited number of routes, or multi-sector days versus
two, three or four pilots who are strangers, flying three times a month and who now find themselves in a new sub-variant on a new route.

There are many combinations between these extremes.

Let’s not forget the single pilot. Do they brief themselves?
eckhard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29th Jun 2018, 02:59
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Ponderosa
Age: 46
Posts: 765
briefings- think mini skirts.

long enough to cover the essentials, short enough to keep you interested.

hoss is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service