B.A. FCO on checking on pilots every 20 mins.

[Shadowpurser]

Ok I hope this is in the right place - it was either here or in the CRM forum, so if this gets moved I understand.

I don't know what the rules are at other companies but at BA one of our FCO's since 11/9 is cabin crew must check up on pilots every 20 mins via the interphone (hope I'm not upseting everyone there by revealing an FCO - but I don't think this one is particularly a nation secret).

Now this isn't always possible for one reason or another, as some CC are better at remembering or are more bothered than others. Sometimes the out of sight - out of mind situation can occur. OR we can be BUSY serving pax that pay all our wages on a flight that is full to the rafters.

The situation I am going to recount to all now is this - B737-400, ATH / LGW, 3hrs 30mins flight time, 5 crew, 42 in club(most of who are returning from a 6* package tour/cruise that included all the bells and whistles), full in traveller, one rather excentric (sure that's spelt wrong) purser(not myself) not used to doing this route on a regular basis, and a very experianced crew memeber also working in club with the purser.

Having done one of these flights carrying these particular pax I can tell you - THEY ARE DEMANDING - and rightly so... they have paid a lot of money for their holiday, they started by going out to Cairo on B777, then cruised round the med, eventually ending up on our diddy A/C on the way home - everything taken care of - lot of lords/sirs/company directors etc etc. When they get on the look on their faces says it all and the words "Is it club!!?" start hitting you.

With a load of 42, if you are not used to this service, and with this particular purser doing it HER way despite the suggestions of her no 4 (other club crew member) the service went very slowly - looking like it wasn't going to be completed on landing, much to the upset of the PAX - and they let the crew know it!!!!

Now the situation has been set for you all you may be able to see that the crew may have been busy/distracted/etc. But I agree no excuse not to call the flight deck to check if the pilots are ok from time to time. BUT every 20 mins IS NOT POSSIBLE! I know since this one came out we DO have to make more of an effort but every 20 mins is stupid and it does not happen. On this particular flight if the letter of the law is followed it would result in 10 - 11 calls to the flight deck not including "other" inclidental calls. Last time I did this particular flight I think I called the flight deck 4 times because we were just flat out. Pilots were fine totally understood - not a problem, we were busy as long as they got fed.

However on this particular day the captain in question was not happy with lack of attention. So much so that when drinks were finally handed in by the no.4 and after the F.O. wispering "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry" to bemused no.4 at the door, the captain shouted from the FD to the galley "do you know what's written in FCO blah blah. I could have been dead! I could report you!". The no.4 totally taken aback by this and said that she was very dissapointed at the captains lack of understanding (or words to that effect) and that if he wanted to report her he could.

With getting abuse from both sides of the galley the girl was and still is very upset about the whole thing.

THE POINT IS.

Rules are there to be followed, but sometimes we have to flexible. If I rang the FD every 20 mins I'd be universally hated for interupting all the time. We do ring when we can - but in exceptional circumstances we are sidetracked or disracted by the people paying our wages because they are unhappy or expecting a service and we want them coming back for more.

I appeal for a bit of understanding, humility, and flexibility. If we haven't called for a bit - DO CALL US - we don't mind, you are as much part of our jobs as the PAX are. But ramming this FCO down our throats and threatening to report us is not the way to go about things.

Do other airlines have this rule - is it followed strictly?

What do other B.A. pilots think of this FCO? DO you want to be called EVERY 20 mins?

If so....GREAT! We are testing new products at the moment and reducing crew levels. These tests are timed and a monitor is present on board. When we do a go-around (which is now happening already without calling every 20 mins) it will all be noted down.

I'm not bloody minded. I want the company to succeed and I will do my level best to ensure that. I do what I can to get things done so we can all get home in time for Eastenders and not cost the company any more money. Surely more go-arounds is not going to benefit anyone?

FINALLY

You may like to hear the captains side of this story, I know I would. Well....I know he's out there and does frequent this site form time to time. So please tell us....correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Facts can be distorted, exagerated, mis-told and I'm sure we'd all like to hear it. Not to have a go or riddicule you but just to hear your reasons for acting the way you did.

I'm not anti-pilot- in fact...far from it!!!, I just want to increase understanding between the two communities so we can all work together for a better happier work environment and a more profitable enjoyable airline.

PHEW!!!!! Well that's more than enough typing for me people.

Thanks to all who read this and keep smiling!!!!

[maxy101]

It does sound overly harsh, however I think I can see both sides. At the risk of stirring, I wonder what the point of you calling us anyway...It's not as though anyone can do anything if you don't get a reply........

[Bigpants]

Common sense and better communications would have made this flight safer and more pleasant for all concerned.

The Captain I suspect was probably brassed off because he felt abondoned/thirsty/hungry and generally neglected by his own crew.

At night when your flight crew might be tired a 20 minute check makes sense hence the FCO. In the current environment a flight that did not answer the radio for 20 minutes might find a couple of fighters alongside or worse..... So checking on the flight crew at sensible intervals is a must.

If cabin crew are ineffective they have to be given feedback and if necessary retrained. The same goes for flight crew which is why so many well run airlines have excellent safety records and others do not!

This brings me back to the main point which is safety based. The FCO is there for a reason and subject to discussion with your flight crew you would be safest sticking to it. If that means that the passengers do not get the service they feel entitled too then feed it back up the line and either get more staff or get rid of those that can't cope. Harsh perhaps but par for the course for flight crew.
Regards BP

[Shadowpurser]

3 hours is inexcuseable!!! I can do it once on a 40 min LGW/MAN!!! So yes you are totally right to do what you have to do!!

With reguards to obeying the letter of the law, I don't want my actions to the result in unnessecary costs for the company or to annoy my collegues.

Thanks to your rerplies guys keep em coming!!!!

[Ghostflyer]

First, the Captain sounds like a horses a**e, and you are right, as they say in the military, 'flexibility is the key to air power (or happy crews)'.

Emirates has the rule not for post 9/11 reasons but because on long night sectors it is not unknown for both flightdeck crew to fall asleep. An american aircraft once over flew its destination with the crew asleep.

If there is a concern from the Cabin Crew that they may miss a call, ask the flight deck crew to call you or ask if you may call at 30 minute intervals. On a 330, the flightdeck nearly always call the cabin crew at night coz the call buzzer in the cockpit frightens the bjesus out of them. As always, the key is communication, if you know you are going to be busy, load shed.

Having said that, how often do you actually have the situation where there is no one in the galley? Not that often really. It only takes 10 seconds to call and then even the most obnoxious capitano will be appeased. Some crew manage to call or visit the flightdeck even on the busiest flights at regular intervals, some wouldn't crack it even with only 1 passenger in first.

Ghost

[Firm Touchdown]

Communication comes in many forms. All of the following indicate that the flight deck crew are alive. Seat belt signs off, seat belt signs on, passenger announcements, etc.

It would be reasonable to assume on short busy flights that the pilots are alive if the above items occur.

I am sure however that a courtesy call occassionally would be much appreciated.

And without any communication from the cabin, what is to say that all is well down the back!

[lekkerste]

Shadowpurser, on busy flights I've often been asked 'are you happy with 30/40 minutes?' and of course the answer is always 'no problem'. So maybe it was a lack of communication? Big brutha, you are so right. 2 to 3 hours through the night without a call ( and all pax asleep) is far from unusual. I'm amazed when this happens, especially on a 2-crew flight. You would think self-preservation would mean this wouldn't happen.

[Hand Solo]

Whilst being called every 20 minutes is a bit extreme (and indeed a nuisance and distraction on some of our super-short sectors), I think this captain may have been wound up by previous experiences with some crews. In my experience there is a significant but growing minority of cabin crew who pay no attention to this particular rule and excuse themselves with the "Well if they want something they'll call us" line. The rule is not about getting a nice cup of tea, its about making sure both the guys are still functioning normally. If I'm dying of thirst then I'll call you, but on some flights I've noted the lengthy period during which there's been no indication from the flight crew that we were still alive and still nobody has bothered to check, even when the flight wasn't busy. Some crews are excellent and check at suitable intervals, even on busy flights, but others really just can't be arsed and its they who need a good kick up the backside before they decide they can't be bothered to comply with any of the other safety rules.

[Slickster]

Agree with Hand entirely. Out of sight out of mind is very much the order of the day on many flights now. It's not about getting a cup of tea; pre 9/11 I was happy to go and get one myself. Ironically enough, pre 9/11 I was checked on more than I am now. Incidentally, there was always a requirement to check on the flight crew every 20 minutes; quite why phoning is harder than opening a door I don't know! As I say, out of sight, out of mind.....

[Shadowpurser]

Just did a chock a block LGW/LED/LGW today - just told pilots to give us a call if they needed anything and we hadn't spoken for a while as we were busy. Worked fine, I called at least 4 times and they called us a couple too. I would say approach your crews before the flight - tell them you will call if they don't - then at least they know what to expect. It's not fair if you are stuck for hours on end. I wouldn't like it and for damn sure wouldn't put up with it - so neither should you!!!!

[411A]

Seems to me that the idea of...we'll call you if we need anything...works quite well, nearly all the time. Are "some" crews so insecure that they need their respective hands held?
Good grief, off to the looney bin with these guys!

Wake UP. Leave the cabin alone to do their job...they are trained professionals...leave 'em ALONE.

Works GOOD, lasts a long time!!

[HotDog]

411A, good job you're going to fly freight. If you ever get off the ground!

[Firestorm]

Could the Captain not have made an occasional call to check that the cabin crew were alright, and not experiencing something horrific?

It sounds like he was just having a bad day. I don't understand his attitude - it does sound rather unreasonable to me.

[canberra]

fco

i think youve done the right thing by putting this on the web. anyone remember the ba747 that almost landed on the hotel at heathrow? i remember reading the report in pilot and the court reports(im not going to have a pop at the captain) there were problems between the flight deck crew and the cabin crew, according to the reports ive read it got so bad that the flight deck crew didnt get so much as a glass of water off the cabin crew for the last few hours of the flight. somehow i dont think that is conducive to flight safety. as a final point cant cabin crew use the chirp system, or alternetively does ba have flight safety officers like the raf that you can go to in confidence?

[bascally]

Firestorm,

I think the point was that contact was not being maintained, all the previuos messages explain this to death.

If there was something horrific happening in the cabin then surely theres even more reason to keep the flight crew informed?

[Shadowpurser]

Yes we do have the chirp system and we do all have the confidential safety reporting system as well. What the girl in question chooses to do is up to her. As I've said before we only know her side of the story and there are always TWO sides.

HOWEVER....In B.A. (well the cabin crew side anyway) the culture is to own your own feedback. So I would express my thoughts and feelings and what the situation was in the cabin proffesionally at the appropriate time i.e. after the flight - just the two of us. If after a frank discussion I felt that there was a problem on his part and he refused to recognise it potentially causing a furture safety/CRM problem, I would inform him that I will informally approach the on duty management at the time hoping that the situation could be resolved without having to resort the filling out of reports etc etc. I believe people respond to PEOPLE and learn from PEOPLE..... not paperwork. If all that failed!!! Well.....I'd have to put pen to paper.

What would you do in this situation?
Do other companies have the 20 min rule?
What are other companies policies on this kind of situation?

[Jetdriver]

At Monarch the same general instruction exists. A member of the cabin crew should check the flight deck every 20 minutes.

Common sense dictates that a general average of 20 minutes is in order rather any hard and fast rule. Usually this is done by the cabin crew member whose duties include offering a drink at those intervals. Some times it will be the senior cabin crew member. In reality it might be any of the crew.

The check provides for a number of things. Obviously it keeps the flight deck crew hydrated. It also provides a check to ensure there are no problems on the flight deck. It also provides an opportunity for interaction betwen the Captain and the crew as to the general situation in the cabin. It provides a short respite for the cabin crew from the cabin environment. Hopefully it provides the opportunity for a little C.R.M even if it is only to listen to someone elses problem ( on either side!).

It sometimes happens that the check is not followed as well as it might be. Sometimes this is because of a particularly busy cabin situation, or maybe there is a new cabin crew member who needs time to settle into the role. Like most things, it requires patience and understanding. Indeed before it manifests itself as a problem, good management practice would be for the Captain to liase with the senior crew member to see if anything can be done to modify the situation. A little tact and good manners usually goes a long way to a quick resolution.

I suppose the short answer is "Comunication".

( though possibly not quite as short if you spell it with two "m"s !)

[Sick Squid]

Shadowpurser,

Excellent post, and a very well explained argument from your perspective.

First, let me deal briefly with the skippers response. Not good, and no excuses other than those mentioned above. Do remember that BA is by no means alone in having individuals like that, however: all airlines recruit from a bell-curve of the available population, and individuals wil always inhabit either end of that curve. To put this in proportion, the worst ever example I have seen of human interaction was in AN Other company, when the skipper went into a rage, and demanded the presence of the girl who had just served him his meal. His complaint was....."Feel this! Go on feel it! See what I mean? This cutlery is ABSOLUTELY FREEZING COLD! Replace it at once...."

I don't think any further comment is necessary, and I'm sure every airline in the World, every office building, every shope and every establishment where people interact has at least one person who would fit that mould. Where you employ many people, the law of averages kicks in... but remember, the largest part of the bell curve is the centre, and they don't make the headlines, or the gossip.

As to the crux of your point, I've always since geting my command had a chat with the purser/CSD beforehand and worked out some scenario for the checks. We do know when it is busy it is hard to make the time, and as Jetdriver says above, it is an "average" of 20 minutes.

I do feel that it is important that you make the time, however, and ensure that the atmosphere is such that both sides of the door are aware of the needs of the other. It isn't a tea-and-coffee check, after all, it is an "Are you all OK?" check, just that the T-and-C tends to be appended. A "Bit busy just now guys, just making sure you're alive, if you need anything can I get back to you when it calms down, but place yer orders now" is absolutely perfect, in my book, and the best one I've heard yet, (on a busy AMS, I think it was.)

If you ever fly with me on the Scarebus say hello, and I'll give you a badge!

£6

[HugMonster]

BigBrutha - while 3 hours is really not acceptable, there has to be a reason for it. I can think of several possibilities. (a) The CC were rushed off their feet the whole time (b) One of the flight deck crew had really upset them and they were making a point (c) They'd all had their throats cut (d) etc.

Before it goes anything like that long, I would suggest that you are obliged by all sorts of concerns to call THEM and find out what's happening, not sit there counting the minutes and working out if you're going to report them.

You say they don't thank you for getting them home safely. Do you thank them for looking after you on the way home? For keeping your passengers happy and contented?

We're all part of the same team. I detect an element of "we're the important ones, they're there to look after us and they should be grateful for the opportunity to do so" in your post. If I am reading too much into it, then I apologise, but that's the way it came across to me. Perhaps other communications of yours have been similarly misinterpreted in the past, hence your problem and you could perhaps examine how you communicate?

[Shadowpurser]

Cold cutlery!!! LOL!!!! UNREAL!!!!